Silverleaf Owner update (New Endless Escapes policy)

[DrQ]

Agree. What I don't understand why people buy into anything but HOA Controlled Independent Resorts. There you only have one entity and one Board of Directors to deal with. Most of the chains change the rules to suit themselves to the detriment of their Owners. The question is not "Will they" but rather "When"...

George

Read my posts on Inverness by the Sea. Independents have their own issues. HICV (née Silverleaf) fit our needs for a couple decades as did Inverness, change sucks, but time moves on.

We use what we have and enjoy a reasonable level of consistency between the resorts in the chain.

• Do I want to spent a lot of time sifting through the dregs offered on RCI, no.
• Do I want to search for rentals every year for an area we normally go, no.

 

[Jimster]

We have owned for over 20 years and it was obvious then that the bonus time and EE were at the discretion of the company. Let’s be realistic here. You didn’t expect that to go on in perpetuity did you? The language of the contract was quite clear. The truth is I was amazed that HIVC even agreed to anything after they purchased Silverleaf. They could have wiped out the entire program at that time but they didnt. Let me make the analogy of a person or company buying up rental property with current occupants. When that happens (and I am a real estate attorney), the new owner has several options but can ultimately terminate the rights of the renter unless extremely parculiar language exists in the lease.
Even though i am unhappy about the changes myself, I am not surprised. This is a for-profit corporation and they are going to make business decisions in their own self-interest.

 

[DrQ]

Even though i am unhappy about the changes myself, I am not surprised. This is a for-profit corporation and they are going to make business decisions in their own self-interest.

And I pointed out: "Why should I TRUST and NEW benefit program associated with what you want me to purchase?"

 

[Jimster]

The bonus time program changed several time over the course of my ownership. My contract provides that I get 6 free nights Each time i use bonus time. Later they changed it to 3. Then they started charging for weekend nights. THen they started charging for anything. While I was grandfathered in for most of that, I knew it was only a matter of time until the program ended. When HIVC continued the program I was surprised. If you purchased the unit and got reasonable use out of the program, I think you got the benefit of the bargain.

Frankly, there are probably a million other issues I have with Silverleaf aside from this. They are a sleazy outfit. They sell to generally a poorer class of people and depend on foreclosure and resale of properties many times to help their bottom line. The good news is that HIVC is much better. They have HOA and generally provide a better bang for the buck. They maintain their property better and provide excellent service.

 

[DrQ]

Frankly, there are probably a million other issues I have with Silverleaf aside from this. They are a sleazy outfit. They sell to generally a poorer class of people and depend on foreclosure and resale of properties many times to help their bottom line. The good news is that HIVC is much better. They have HOA and generally provide a better bang for the buck. They maintain their property better and provide excellent service.

Silverleaf's business model was to locate resorts outside of major metropolitan areas and provide a wide range of vacation opportunities to their clients. I've seen a diverse customer base enjoying themselves at the resorts. I don't consider Silverleaf "sleazy" for having a product in which many could purchase and enjoy time with their families. All timeshare sales use high pressure sales tactics and many prey on the elderly too.

We have not seen any evidence of that, we just stayed at Piney Shores in a Presidential and in the master BR there was a broken tulip shade on the ceiling fan. I moved the coffee table and there was a nasty set of sandals underneath it.

The bonus time program changed several time over the course of my ownership. My contract provides that I get 6 free nights Each time i use bonus time. Later they changed it to 3. Then they started charging for weekend nights. THen they started charging for anything. While I was grandfathered in for most of that, I knew it was only a matter of time until the program ended. When HIVC continued the program I was surprised. If you purchased the unit and got reasonable use out of the program, I think you got the benefit of the bargain.

That was on new contracts, not for contracts in place. Up until about 8 years ago, you could transfer Endless Escapes on resale. HICV tried to end EE/BT on conversions and found that that was nonstarter and after about a year, they quietly added a rider extending the right on conversions to HIVC points.

The population having EE is shrinking, they have changed the reservation system so it appears that you just have 1 EE after conversion, so you can't "retire" on the old Silverleaf properties anymore. They can do as they want, but they lost when it comes to the goodwill of their owners. I will honestly comment on what we find on review sites.

 

[Jimster]

“Silverleaf's business model was to locate resorts outside of major metropolitan areas and provide a wide range of vacation opportunities to their clients. I've seen a diverse customer base enjoying themselves at the resorts. I don't consider Silverleaf "sleazy" for having a product in which many could purchase and enjoy time with their families. All timeshare sales use high pressure sales tactics and many prey on the elderly too.”

1. Almost all timeshares are located outside metropolitan areas. That is why people who want to exchange in Europe are disappointed. They can’t get exchanges in the city and they want to see the city not rusticate in the countryside.
2. I have probably had 80 exchanges and stayed at TS all over the world and i will stand by my statement that as a general rule the customer base is of a lower social economic class than most. Specifically, consider Fox River Resort outside Chicago. Oak n Spruce is much the same only it draws from Boston. I know they prey on people who cant afford the TS and then foreclose. They always have something to sell because of the high rate of foreclosure. The utter lack of owner influence caused by the lack of a HOA is part of the vehicle used to accomplish this.
3. Having been to many presentations from many timeshare companies, with the exception of Mexican TS I have found the Silverleaf salesmen and saleswomen are among the least professional, least knowledgeable, and less tied to the truth than others. I will admit there are other resorts that use the high pressure techniques but not all go to the extremes used by Silverleaf (Mexican TS excluded).
4. These days Silverleaf is trying to sell their properties at premium prices but they fall far short of the Marriotts, Hyatts, Hiltons HIVC and others. Likewise their sales people also fall far short of major TS chains.
5. Again the good news is that since HIVC ownership, the quality of the TS product has improved substantially. Let me put it this way-“if i never see another cocktail table made out of a sleigh, it will be too soon”

 

[DrQ]

1. Almost all timeshares are located outside metropolitan areas. That is why people who want to exchange in Europe are disappointed. They can’t get exchanges in the city and they want to see the city not rusticate in the countryside.
Silverleaf had two classes of resorts:

• Getaway
• Destination

The Getaway resorts were as I described above. Really, who actually wants to travel to Chicago to stay in Norway IL? Same thing with Flint TX, Conroe TX, DeSoto MO, Clarksville GA. (And we have been to all except DeSoto MO)

The Destination resorts were located closer to attractions, Branson, The Berkshires, Disneyworld, Galveston Island, The Hill Country TX. Those were a more expensive buy-in.

2. I have probably had 80 exchanges and stayed at TS all over the world and i will stand by my statement that as a general rule the customer base is of a lower social economic class than most. Specifically, consider Fox River Resort outside Chicago. Oak n Spruce is much the same only it draws from Boston. I know they prey on people who cant afford the TS and then foreclose. They always have something to sell because of the high rate of foreclosure. The utter lack of owner influence caused by the lack of a HOA is part of the vehicle used to accomplish this.
I'm at a loss here, yes there may be a higher default rate (proof?), but this just kind of smacks of elitism. People are free to make their own decisions, to deny a class of people the opportunity is kind of patronizing to me.

3. Having been to many presentations from many timeshare companies, with the exception of Mexican TS I have found the Silverleaf salesmen and saleswomen are among the least professional, least knowledgeable, and less tied to the truth than others. I will admit there are other resorts that use the high pressure techniques but not all go to the extremes used by Silverleaf (Mexican TS excluded).
Try Westgate

4. These days Silverleaf is trying to sell their properties at premium prices but they fall far short of the Marriotts, Hyatts, Hiltons HIVC and others. Likewise their sales people also fall far short of major TS chains.
Silverleaf has always been regional resort chain which did not measure up to the BIGS. After being bought by HICV, we are paying the BIGS Maintenance Fees, but other than some flat screen TV's, I'm not seeing any difference. Some units have new furniture, but others need to be fully remodeled (Bathtub in the master BR)

5. Again the good news is that since HIVC ownership, the quality of the TS product has improved substantially. Let me put it this way-“if i never see another cocktail table made out of a sleigh, it will be too soon”

• Those tables are still there. (We were in a newly remodeled unit at Oak'n Spruce)
• They have outsourced housekeeping
• We have not seen a major improvement in the day to day operations since the days of Cerberus

 

[PAFoxFamily]

Is there a class action lawsuit being formed against them for taking our deeded bonus time away?

Can a lawsuit be filed in small claims? If we are denied a “free week” can we not sue for the value of a “rented week”... about $1000 for each time our summer gets ruined over breach of contract? Sue yearly?

 

[PAFoxFamily]

What incentive is there for Holiday Inn to make us happy? As long as our week exists they get residual income from maintenance fees. They lose a sale of a new one if they resell our old one... so we keep paying and they build new units. Owners will NOT be chosen above corporate greed. I think a class action will just lead to is getting fleeced by a lawyer next. I still throw out the idea of “what about small claims?” Surely they would pay attention to 1000 individual $1000 lawsuits?

This petition has been created to ask that the Holiday Inn Vacation Club and its subsidiaries remove the additional changes unfairly enforced on the property owners or visitors at their Silverleaf Resorts.

We respectfully request that you reconsider your actions and live up to the intent of our agreement. Please put the Owners ahead of your financial greed.

https://www.thepetitionsite.com/312...NefPfpDK-qdZjQH6-YWyZe1IK5kqpM#bbfb=901136538

 

[PAFoxFamily]

That would be fine if you wanted to stay in a cabin or lodge accommodation. When they started building Presidentials, they modified the contract.

I believe I have read this carefully and I think we have an out? Rule 1 clearly states that we have FREE endless escape! States we are entitled to it! Rule 4 says “Rules and regulations governing the endless escape can be changed and/or terminated at any time”. It DOES NOT say that applies to us? I thought this applied to future owners. It does not make sense that it applied to me as Rule 1 would mean nothing as a contract if they could just Willy Nilly change or terminate it? I thought this line meant they could change or modify the program for future owners. I thought they included that because they had a referral program and I cannot promise my friends their endless escape is the same as mine. As a matter of fact, I already understood my deed was different... grandfathered... and future buyers would not likely get the same great perks I get! I did not care if they modified the program for “lesser” or “newer” deeds. I did not care if they terminated the program for new buyers altogether!!! As long as Rule 1 applies to me I am happy. I at no point in time had it explained that Silverleaf could change or even remove my Rule 1... and Rule 4 in no way expresses those changes or termination applies to me. If they say they explained it clearly (which common sense says they did not) they need to “read the contract” as anything said by salesperson NOT in contract does NOT count for anything (also states in contract)

 

[PAFoxFamily]

I’ve not heard back???


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[tschwa2]

I believe I have read this carefully and I think we have an out? Rule 1 clearly states that we have FREE endless escape! States we are entitled to it! Rule 4 says “Rules and regulations governing the endless escape can be changed and/or terminated at any time”. It DOES NOT say that applies to us? I thought this applied to future owners. It does not make sense that it applied to me as Rule 1 would mean nothing as a contract if they could just Willy Nilly change or terminate it? I thought this line meant they could change or modify the program for future owners. I thought they included that because they had a referral program and I cannot promise my friends their endless escape is the same as mine. As a matter of fact, I already understood my deed was different... grandfathered... and future buyers would not likely get the same great perks I get! I did not care if they modified the program for “lesser” or “newer” deeds. I did not care if they terminated the program for new buyers altogether!!! As long as Rule 1 applies to me I am happy. I at no point in time had it explained that Silverleaf could change or even remove my Rule 1... and Rule 4 in no way expresses those changes or termination applies to me. If they say they explained it clearly (which common sense says they did not) they need to “read the contract” as anything said by salesperson NOT in contract does NOT count for anything (also states in contract)

I don't think they NEED to explain each of the rules to you in case you interpret them differently than they do. At this point they changed the rules. They are going to say they did that as per rule 4. You say they can't because of your interpretation of rule 1 and rule 4. If you want to take them to court and try to convince a judge that your interpretation of those rules is the correct one vs the HICV contract lawyers (who I am sure HICV consulted with before changing the rules) who will be arguing for their interpretation. You might win, you might lose, you might convince HICV to settle. I doubt that will happen without a fair amount of time, expense and effort on your part.

 

[PAFoxFamily]

That’s partly correct. The concept of a contract is “an offer” and “an acceptance”. You make a clear offer and I accept the terms, then we have a binding contract...even verbal counts. However, a judge will force a contract as binding only if he can establish a “meeting of the mind” occurred. If you said you would sell your car for $1000 and I accepted the terms that you were selling your car for $1, then it would not be enforceable. On verbal contracts, “meeting of the minds” is almost impossible to establish...he said/she said...my word against yours... a judge throws that out. This is why contracts are written by educated lawyers, signed and dated by all parties... and sometimes even initialed at points to prove parts were ACTUALLY read. My point is that rule #4 is poorly written. It could be interpreted that “the program could be changed or terminated”... concerning FUTURE owners OR “the program could be changed or terminated” concerning ALL owners including me. If a judge deems that “my understanding” is reasonable... that part of the contract... or even the entire contract would be void. There was NO MEETING OF THE MINDS! Now if the judge says “ the wording is pretty clear and there is no way you could have read this and misunderstood it”.. I then lose the case. If a judge rules “my understanding is reasonable and could easily be interpreted that way”... I win. The intent of the Silverleaf sales person makes no difference if his wording was poor. Either that point would be VOID or the entire contract could be backed out of concerning the parties. I believe ALL of us actually understood “my understanding” at that time as we all thought “ENDLESS ESCAPE” portion was a contract and we believed we were getting some great perks. I do not believe any judge would rule that ANY of us had things clearly explained that that paper was meaningless, not a contract, and not binding at all! It was NOT explained that way and the wording is not clear as to include us!!


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[ecwinch]

As Jimster points out ... plain language of the contract, and have the parties received the fruits of their bargain?

And one other thing to consider is that you joined into a contract with the developer, but also with your fellow owners. Their interests might not be aligned with yours if you have a benefit that they do not enjoy. There is no free lunch here, if you both pay same the dues and you get more benefit they they do - is that equitable?

Also consider if usage of your benefit reduces their ability to make reservations? It is a zero-sum game... every unit occupied by a EE/BT owner is one less unit available to members with no benefit to the HOA. Actually you could easily make the case that it is detrimental... increased maintenance/cleaning costs

 

[PAFoxFamily]

I don't think they NEED to explain each of the rules to you in case you interpret them differently than they do. At this point they changed the rules. They are going to say they did that as per rule 4. You say they can't because of your interpretation of rule 1 and rule 4. If you want to take them to court and try to convince a judge that your interpretation of those rules is the correct one vs the HICV contract lawyers (who I am sure HICV consulted with before changing the rules) who will be arguing for their interpretation. You might win, you might lose, you might convince HICV to settle. I doubt that will happen without a fair amount of time, expense and effort on your part.

Maybe. Yes, it was an HICV lawyer who drew up the contract... but companies change wording as contracts evolve because of reasons just like this. Contracts are AGREEMENTS put in writing. I would only have to REASONABLY establish we never agreed on point 4. It was POORLY worded and how I understood it is as reasonable as he intended it. BOTH understandings are reasonable. Point 1 leans toward MY reasonable understanding as it would be meaningless and unenforceable under their intentions. I could get up to $5000 in small claims?


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[Leturno]

Is there an update on this?