Sandcastle P'town owners -Festiva

[tombo]

Isn't the internet great? Not only can you debunk lies with simple incontrovertable evidence, you can also pull up old posts and revisit statements that people say they never made. I wish that Outfield (and all timeshare salesmen) had to try to sell their points by giving their presentation on line. When they later tried to lie and say that they never said that non points owners were going to have a big assesment (etc,etc,etc), all you would have to do is say sure you did, here it is in post number 43.

Why doesn't every owner here who gets a phone call inviting them to the update meeting go and lay a tape recorder on the desk. If the sales rep asks what it is for simply say that in case you do decide to buy that you wanted to make sure that you got EVERYTHING that was promised to you in the sales presentation. I would love to see the look on the salesman's face when you hit record and say go ahead and explain Festiva and it's advantages to me. :rofl:

 

[tombo]

I don't respond to legal issues because I'm not an attorney. What could be simpler than that. I see people offering legal opinions on here all the time and opening themselves up for all kinds of legal problems. I'm not going to to that.

London, you're absolutely correct. All they have to do is say no and that's that. Thousands of owners have been contacted and a handful claim to have had a problem.

I have a problem right now with Sears. Hey Tombo, Fig, et al, want to help me with that? Maybe we should report them to the attorney general or organize a boycott and disrupt their entire business. What do you think? Ever thought of just saying no?

With Sears there is no problem. The Sears motto is "Satisfaction Guaranteed". If you have exceeded the 30 to 90 day window you might have a problem, but 30 days to 90 days to change your mind beats a 10 day recission period with timeshares.

Here is their warranty: http://www.warrantyweek.com/library/ww20021223/sears-satisfaction.html

If you keep asking for someone with more authority you will eventually get someone who will satisfy you. I worked in Sears in High School and if people complained that they weren't satisfied loud enough and long enough we gave them their money back or another item free. I have refunded 100% of the prchase price on shoes with holes in the sole because the cuatomer was not satisfied with how long they lasted. I gave a new boat motor to a guy who ran it in salt water until it was corroded because he got the store manager and kept saying I don't care if it is out of warranty, I am not satisfied and it says on your wall satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. I even had to give a man a free 3 pack of underwear because the dirty ones he brought in with holes in them wore out before he thought that they should have and he wasn't satisfied. I used to tell my mangers that they should just tell some of these people no and they said we promise satisfaction and we can't tell a customer that they are satisfied when they aren't.

Your problem is solved. Anything else I can help you with?

 

[ecwinch]

4. While I can't give you a legal opinion, I can tell you that no resort I know of in New England, or anywhere else for that matter, will release the owner's private and confidential information. Management's job is to protect the owners.

Cliff,

Have you offered those concerned owners who have requested the members list, an alternative procedure for communicating with their fellow owners?

Have you solicited a legal opinion from qualified counsel that supports your position that you are not required to conform with applicable state statutes?

Or an legal opinion that allows you to ignore the by-laws of the association?

 

[ecwinch]

FYI, we have had very few complaints from owners about either Festiva or Outfield. That's a factual statement. I know, I'm here every day.

Cliff

Obviously this statement runs counter to the complaints that have surfaced here. When you say "few complaints" do you mean on a numeric or percentage basis? Can you quantify your answer?

More than a few complaints have been made here. Are those included in your count?

 

[ecwinch]

Please be aware that as an owner at Sandcastle I would be extremely upset if the management were to pass my personal information on to any third party, including other owners, outside businesses, etc.

I have discussed this with several other owners and they feel the same way.

Management take note.

When you purchased at Sandcastle, you agreed to adhere to the by-laws of the association. The by-laws allow your member information to be shared with other members.

Without this provision, owners have no means for communicating with each other on ownership issues.

 

[ecwinch]

Thank you, Rambler!

I too heard about a complaint about sales last week and I will tell you what happened. There was a new sales rep who started the previous Saturday. On Tuesday, I received a complaint from an owner who had just received a presentation. I drove to the Sandcastle and met with the owner to hear what had happened. I then looked at the rep's appointment schedule to find someone else he had spoken with. I contacted that owner (who hadn't complained) and spoke with them about what happened.

When I heard the same story from both owners, I contacted Outfield Marketing and explained the situation to them on Wednesday. Outfield sent a memo to the sales staff explaining that, if there were further complaints, the sales rep would be terminated. On Thursday, I was concerned enough to discuss the situation at length with Outfield and on Friday the sales rep was terminated and is no longer associated with the Sandcastle.

On Monday of this week, Outfield sent a senior manager to the resort to retrain the sales reps and to remain on site for the rest of the summer to assure me that no more problems like this would develop. That retraining is going on as I write this.

I have to take a minute to speak about complaints. Every week, I get complaints about front desk staff, maintenance people, office people, even the maid staff. When I can verify that a complaint is legitimate, immediate action is taken no matter who is involved.

Owners and even non-owners who post on TUG have to understand that I can't deal with problems I don't know about. Nor can I deal with problems where owners won't discuss it with me. I had an owner last week demanding that I fire a woman who worked the front desk because the owner claimed that she was rude and abusive. Upon investigation, I was informed by another owner that it was the first owner who was screaming and swearing in the lobby. Our front desk staff refused to deal with her anymore unless she calmed down and stopped swearing at them. The owner then got my number, called me and wanted at least one person fired.

Not all complaints are legitimate but all are investigated and action taken where appropriate. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention. I will keep an eye on things to make sure that what you experienced doesn't happen again. You have my sincere apologies.

Cliff

Cliff,

This is the second time that you have outlined a similar situation with Outfield, with a very similar outcome (ie. terminated sales rep). At what point do you recognize the systematic nature of the problem?

If this happens a third, or fourth, or fifth time?

 

[mweinberg]

Why doesn't every owner here who gets a phone call inviting them to the update meeting go and lay a tape recorder on the desk. If the sales rep asks what it is for simply say that in case you do decide to buy that you wanted to make sure that you got EVERYTHING that was promised to you in the sales presentation. I would love to see the look on the salesman's face when you hit record and say go ahead and explain Festiva and it's advantages to me. :rofl:

A tape recording might be great for making a complaint, but it probably won't change anything. I've been told that paragraph 18 of the sales contract says, "Seller and Purchaser agree that this Agreement . . . embodies the entire agreement . . . and replaces any and all prior negotiations, representations, agreements, and understandings, both oral and written."

 

[tombo]

A tape recording might be great for making a complaint, but it probably won't change anything. I've been told that paragraph 18 of the sales contract says, "Seller and Purchaser agree that this Agreement . . . embodies the entire agreement . . . and replaces any and all prior negotiations, representations, agreements, and understandings, both oral and written."

It might not help with regards to actually purchasing WHICH YOU SHOULD NOT DO. DO NOT GIVE UP A GOOD WEEK FOR WORTHLESS POINTS! Just listen and record, don't buy.

What it will do is get proof to give to the AG to use in the current complaints or it might be exactly what the AG needs to go ahead and file suit. Get a couple of those tapes and Outfield can no longer claim that they aren't using fraudulant promises and threats of loss of use and increased assessments if you don't convert to try and sell weeks.

If anyone can check on the laws in your state, some states allow you to tape any conversation without informing the other party as long as you are a part of the conversation. If that is true where the sales presentation takes place (in your home or at the resort) then you can tape away and never have to tell the sales rep that you are taping. A couple of those tapes where the salesman uses lies and threats to try and sell points conversions would probably be all the AG would need to take action. Cheap micro-mini recorders are available at Radio Shack.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Tombo, MA requires both parties to agree to a taping, otherwise it's a crime.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Cliff,

Have you offered those concerned owners who have requested the members list, an alternative procedure for communicating with their fellow owners?

Have you solicited a legal opinion from qualified counsel that supports your position that you are not required to conform with applicable state statutes?

Or an legal opinion that allows you to ignore the by-laws of the association?

No

Yes

Yes

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Outfield has met with thousands (literally) of owners. We have had a handful of complaints and those complaints have been addressed. I'll let you analyze it. Thousands of contacts and a handful of complaints.

I'm not diminishing the importance of the complaints at all. I take them very seriously. I haven't seen a sales program yet in any industry that didn't generate complaints. It's how the company responds to complaints that's very important and Outfield's track record on this is excellent.

Most of the complaints on here are from people I've never heard of. My question is why didn't they contact Outfield or the resort to let us know of the problem so that we could do something about it?? How would you suggest I handle a complaint I don't know anything about?

Finally, everyone (including NEVS) wants NEVS out of there. The only way for that to happen is for NEVS to sell it's inventory. How is NEVS going to do with without a sales program?

For the past twenty years, the former developer made very little effort to sell their inventory and they retained complete control of the resort. That's why there was no budget, the resort went further and further into debt every year, the maintenance was ignored and owners now face a special assessment to fix work that should have been done years ago. No reserve account.

We come in to fix those things, put the resort on solid financial footing, go after the delinquent owners who aren't paying their fair share, sell the inventory, make critical repairs to the resort and we're the bad guys??? I frankly don't get it. Why isn't everyone angry at the former developers who put the resort into this situation to begin with?

I talk with lots of owners every day. Almost all of them are pleased with what's happening and they understand the need for what's happening. Of course there are some who will not be satisfied no matter what. There are others who refuse to listen. I've been told here on TUG that there is a small group of owners who've said that they're not going to believe anything I say. Again, it begs the question of why I should say anything. Most of the complaints on here are from people like you, Eric, who aren't even owners!!!

Look at the number of people complaining on here and then look at the fact that we have thousands and thousands of owners who aren't complaining. I know you'll draw your own conclusions from that and I can't wait to see what those conclusions are. I know what most of the owners are thinking.

 

[ginnyB60]

When you purchased at Sandcastle, you agreed to adhere to the by-laws of the association. The by-laws allow your member information to be shared with other members.

Without this provision, owners have no means for communicating with each other on ownership issues.

The problem I have with my information being shared is that, whilst I am sure most of the owners are decent people (although over the years I have come across a few who were doubtful), I do not agree with my personal information being handed over to hundreds - and potentially thousands - of strangers. Who knows what some of them might do with the information?

Besides which, someone could get a lot of money selling a list of this nature.

 

[mweinberg]

The problem I have with my information being shared is that, whilst I am sure most of the owners are decent people (although over the years I have come across a few who were doubtful), I do not agree with my personal information being handed over to hundreds - and potentially thousands - of strangers. Who knows what some of them might do with the information?

Besides which, someone could get a lot of money selling a list of this nature.

Then you might want to share these concerns with someone in the Massachusetts State Legislature and encourage them to change the law. As of now, the law is very specific in giving owners a right to the owners' list, probably because it is the only way owners can interact with other owners except for the ones they share a week with.

 

[Fig]

"Finally, everyone (including NEVS) wants NEVS out of there. The only way for that to happen is for NEVS to sell it's inventory. How is NEVS going to do with without a sales program?"

Fine sell your weeks that you and Outfield took a 2.5 million mortgage out on for a about $3,000 per unit off-season that aren't even selling for $1 on ebay right now. You are all such professionals you should be able to sell them to new and unsuspecting people for $18,000 or more and get your money.

Selling inventory is not what this game is about.

Nah, you need a points program to con retirees into giving up their deeds at $3000 a pop...that's where the real money is made. Oh, and by the way, you don't classify that as a "sale" do you? No, that's an upgrade. Cliff, you are too funny.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

OK, Fig, you've now convinced me that you know absolutely nothing about the business . . .

 

[mweinberg]

Outfield has met with thousands (literally) of owners. We have had a handful of complaints and those complaints have been addressed. I'll let you analyze it. Thousands of contacts and a handful of complaints.

I'm not diminishing the importance of the complaints at all. I take them very seriously. I haven't seen a sales program yet in any industry that didn't generate complaints. It's how the company responds to complaints that's very important and Outfield's track record on this is excellent.

Most of the complaints on here are from people I've never heard of. My question is why didn't they contact Outfield or the resort to let us know of the problem so that we could do something about it?? How would you suggest I handle a complaint I don't know anything about?

Finally, everyone (including NEVS) wants NEVS out of there. The only way for that to happen is for NEVS to sell it's inventory. How is NEVS going to do with without a sales program?

For the past twenty years, the former developer made very little effort to sell their inventory and they retained complete control of the resort. That's why there was no budget, the resort went further and further into debt every year, the maintenance was ignored and owners now face a special assessment to fix work that should have been done years ago. No reserve account.

We come in to fix those things, put the resort on solid financial footing, go after the delinquent owners who aren't paying their fair share, sell the inventory, make critical repairs to the resort and we're the bad guys??? I frankly don't get it. Why isn't everyone angry at the former developers who put the resort into this situation to begin with?

I talk with lots of owners every day. Almost all of them are pleased with what's happening and they understand the need for what's happening. Of course there are some who will not be satisfied no matter what. There are others who refuse to listen. I've been told here on TUG that there is a small group of owners who've said that they're not going to believe anything I say. Again, it begs the question of why I should say anything. Most of the complaints on here are from people like you, Eric, who aren't even owners!!!

Look at the number of people complaining on here and then look at the fact that we have thousands and thousands of owners who aren't complaining. I know you'll draw your own conclusions from that and I can't wait to see what those conclusions are. I know what most of the owners are thinking.

Cliff,

I told you when we talked last Wednesday that I'm VERY appreciative of the changes and improvement at the Sandcastle, all of which were long overdue. I love the new furnishings and carpeting in our unit, I love the improvements to the pool, I love the new signage, and I love the start at re-landscaping. I'm looking forward to seeing what else gets done; however, I worry about the posibility of the resort spending more than owners can afford, especially in the absence of any kind of renovation budget.

I'm not sure, but I'd have to guess the complaints you hear are not about renovations and improvements. At least for me, my unhappiness stems from your business partners. The more I learn about Outfield Marketing, the more I distrust them. You say that most of the people you speak with are pleased with what's going on. I have to wonder, then, why I haven't spoken to, or heard from, one Sandcastle owner who has told me that they converted to Festiva Points and is absolutely thrilled. And people who deal with Festiva at other resorts seem to be saying the same thing. These are the same "non-owners" that you are dissuading from posting here.

You say that you are anxious to turn over control of the Sandcastle, recoup your investment, and get out. The question is, to whom do you want to turn over this control. My biggest fear is getting into a situation in which deeded owners are footing the lion's share of the bills while controlling interest of the resort lies in the hands of the trustees who have the Beneficial Use Rights (like voting!) of Festiva members.

As far as why you don't hear more complaints goes, it just might be because Outfield is your business partner. You don't go to the bear to complain that someone is trying to steal your food.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi Mweinberg

As I've said, we have had complaints about Outfield. You and I discussed your problem with them. At the time, I told you what I was going to do and I did it. That salesperson is gone. The others are receiving additional training to prevent it happening again and a new manager has been brought in to make sure of that. What else would you have me do?

Relatively few owners have joined Festiva. I've spoken with dozens of them and they are universally pleased with what Festiva offers. Festiva isn't for everyone, just as RCI Points are not for everyone. But for those owners for whom a points program makes sense, Festiva's is a very good one.

Please keep in mind that, when an owner joins Festiva, they are no longer an owner which is why we may not hear from them. Also, keep in mind that most of the complaints about Festiva are with the sales process, not the Festiva Adventure Club itself. Hopefully, after our discussions and the results, you will know that I personally am very vigilant about keeping the sales process honest.

NEVS did not buy the inventory to control the resort. NEVS purchased the inventory to sell it. It's really that simple. At some point in the future when NEVS sells out (no, I don't know when that point is so don't ask me) control will pass to an elected board of the owners. To prepare for that day, I am establishing an owner's advisory board to provide input to the board of trustees. I've asked you to become a member of that board and I would still like to see you as part of it if you have the time. The advisory board will give us a group of people who will understand the operations completely so when it's time to stand for elections, we'll have a group of experienced people to do that.

Why didn't the former developer and trustees do something like that in the past twenty years? Why is NEVS getting slammed for doing that now? Most of the owners I talk with are pleased at what's going on. I constantly hear from owners that it's about time someone fixed the resort, someone sold the inventory, someone went after the delinquent owners, etc. This resort has been ignored by the former trustees for twenty years. Now we're taking steps to make Sandcastle the best resort it can be and we're taking all the abuse. I just don't get it.

 

[ecwinch]

The problem I have with my information being shared is that, whilst I am sure most of the owners are decent people (although over the years I have come across a few who were doubtful), I do not agree with my personal information being handed over to hundreds - and potentially thousands - of strangers. Who knows what some of them might do with the information?

Besides which, someone could get a lot of money selling a list of this nature.

Then work with Cliff to have the by-laws of your HOA modified, allowing for an alternative communication process that protects your privacy information. Simply denying owners their rights under your by-laws and state statute is not the answer. Defending Cliff while he violates the state statute and the HOA by-laws is not a viable position. If tomorrow some major change occurs at the resort that results in you wanting to communicate with other owners - what do you do then?

Your position would only allow Cliff to communicate with other owners. Effectively allowing him to be the gatekeeper of any and all information that flows to the owners at the resort. This is effectively censorship.

Cliff is not saying "no I will not give you the members list, but here is what I will do...". He has not offered an alternate communication process that meets the intent of the by-laws or the statute.

He is justing violating the association by-laws and state statute. If you allow him to violate this by-law, where do you draw the line? What's next?

 

[ecwinch]

No

Yes

Yes

Then share that opinion with the members. At least you are obligated to provide an alternative process that allows members to communicate with each other. To complete deny owners their rights, is shameless abuse of power.

You are only relying on the fact that what is at stake is less valuable then what it would cost to fight you. No judge is going to support the opinion you have. I am certain is it a "blushing" defense at best. One only needs to point to the Worldmark case in California as supporting their claim.

 

[ecwinch]

Most of the complaints on here are from people like you, Eric, who aren't even owners!!!

Look at the number of people complaining on here and then look at the fact that we have thousands and thousands of owners who aren't complaining. I know you'll draw your own conclusions from that and I can't wait to see what those conclusions are. I know what most of the owners are thinking.

Then set up a private forum for this discussion and only invite owners. If you want to have this discussion in public, then accept that non-owners will challenge some of the propaganda you offer.

My only complaints have been with your abuse of power. If there is such a small minority of unhappy owners compared to such a large majority of happy owners, then why are you so aggressively working to negate their opinions here?

Spend you time focusing on continuing to make resort owners happy. You will always have critics - just ignore them.

As you noted, you are not going to change our opinions. We understand what you are trying to do.

 

[Fig]

OK, Fig, you've now convinced me that you know absolutely nothing about the business . . .

Hmm...as usual you dodge the issue and address the poster. The point is Cliff, your salesforce isn't getting into this mess selling inventory...there is no market for inventory right now. They are selling nothing or attempting to sell nothing but points to deeded owners and trying to avoid all references to the word "sale."

http://www.timeshareownerscommunity.com/timeshare-info/things-to-know/116.html?task=view

And, my point is not to convince you of anything...you need to do the convincing here if you are to turn the mounting tide against you. You can't do it one picnic table conversation at a time...the websites, blogs and complaints against you seem to be growing exponentially.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Just as I said, Fig. You know nothing about the market or the business. I had four sales just today at Brewster Green and three at the Ponds at Foxhollow. Good thing I don't listen to you or I would have sent my people home . . .

 

[Fig]

Just as I said, Fig. You know nothing about the market or the business. I had four sales just today at Brewster Green and three at the Ponds at Foxhollow. Good thing I don't listen to you or I would have sent my people home . . .

Good for you, Cliff. So these people, they are the Outfield Marketing people... I mean "your people"? That's funny, I thought you had no interest in Outfield Marketing...so now they are employees of your company and selling inventory outside of Sandcastle and Southcape?

Or maybe you have a salesforce in ADDITION to Outfield Marketing....if so, why is Outfield Marketing needed to sell inventory? You have the salesforce to sell inventory. Goodness, man, you are entertaining

Keep typing, Cliff. I love chatting with you.

 

[tombo]

Tombo, MA requires both parties to agree to a taping, otherwise it's a crime.

I thought that you wouldn't answer any legal questions or give legal opinions or advice. Every time you are asked a question you don't want to answer, that is the reason you give. For some reason you answered this legal question really quickly without even making a disclaimer that you aren't a lawyer. Could it be be that you wouldn't want those Outfield sales presentations taped? Owners would sure like to have copies of a taped presentation if possible.

Perhaps some owners should double check and see whether you can legally record a conversation between yourself and someone else in MA without informing them. I know that Cliff has rendered his legal opinion that it is not legal, but as he often says, he is not a lawyer. Perhaps we need a second opinion on the legality of such taping in MA.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Tombo, you really are funny. That's not an opinion, that's a fact!

Saying that it's illegal to shoot someone doesn't call for an opinion . . .