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RCI apparently sued again over rentals

BocaBum99

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jerseygirl said:
Boca --

I think many timeshare owners would welcome the opportunity to deposit into RCI, choose the rental option, and receive 70-80% of the rental proceeds.

Mark my words and write down this date. I predict that RCI will turn the weeks exchange model upside down and do exactly what you suggest. But, the split will be more like 50/50 like it is for condo hotels and resort rental programs.


jerseygirl said:
What people object to is RCI's rental of weeks that do not belong to them.

Actually, this is where you are incorrect. When the owner of week deposits it into RCI, the original owner assigns their use and disposition rights to RCI. The owner now has rights to Points or has an exchange credit.
 

jerseygirl

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BocaBum99 said:
Mark my words and write down this date. I predict that RCI will turn the weeks exchange model upside down and do exactly what you suggest. But, the split will be more like 50/50 like it is for condo hotels and resort rental programs.

You're probably right, but I wouldn't give them one of my weeks at that haircut rate.

BocaBum99 said:
Actually, this is where you are incorrect. When the owner of week deposits it into RCI, the original owner assigns their use and disposition rights to RCI. The owner now has rights to Points or has an exchange credit.

Oh ... I'm pretty clear on what the owner is SUPPOSED to get. But, if the exchange company is removing weeks unfairly, then they're not getting access to everything they're entitled too. You generally ignore that point in your arguments. :)
 

Carolinian

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BocaBum99 said:
Actually, this is where you are incorrect. When the owner of week deposits it into RCI, the original owner assigns their use and disposition rights to RCI. The owner now has rights to Points or has an exchange credit.

And the exchange company should NOT take after the old Savings and Loans and play fast and loose with their deposits. It will ultimately have the same result.
 

BocaBum99

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Carolinian said:
Can you point to any independent rental market for timeshare that is comprehensive and handles significant volume? Hint: one contrived by an exchange company to skim exchange inventory doesn't count!

This question is irrelevent to my point. I said the rental market is being created. Forget the exchange companies, everyone is renting timeshares. There's the traditional timeshare rental sites, ebay, Marriott, Disney, Bluegreen and others. Everyone has rental programs and it is expanding not contracting. Heck, even the independents all rent weeks.

Your question is analogous to making the assertion in 1985 that cell phones will never take off because there is no widescale marketing outlets for selling cell phones directly to consumers. That would have been an incorrect assertion.

It's starting with the exchange companies because that is where the inventory currently resides. The balance of power will shift as more resort groups or mini-point systems get created. They will control the deposits over time and not RCI or II.

Your relabelling of RCI to rentals condominiums international is one of your best insights ever. Now, I understand that that was just a sarcastic label. So, you were right for the wrong reason. But right nonetheless.

The big battle in timesharing will be who will be the first to control the wholesale deposits for mass rentals. Since II and RCI are the incumbents, they are in the best position to do so.

To change to a pure rental model, all RCI has to do is provide cash instead of points or exchange credits for deposits. The way to do this is to allow renting RCI points. Let there be a market for RCI points on eBay like there is for WorldMark credits. Then, RCI will be giving points to timesharers that will turn those points into cash. RCI rents the weeks or allows their depositers to rent directly from them. No conflict of interest since the depositer is getting paid upfront.

Right now, what RCI is doing is learning the rental markets for various timeshares. When they get enough data, they will feel much more comfortable in switching completely to Rentals Condominiums International and you will go down in history as the first person to predict their new name.
 

Carolinian

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First of all, as to the independents, the ones I am familiar with do NOT rent exchange deposits to the general public. Some offer last minute inventory as rentals to members. DAE has a program where a member can specifically place a week into a rental pool as opposed to an exchange pool. Trading Places, which is also a management company, does some renting of inventory placed for rental by either members at their managed resorts or the HOA's.
None of these involve skimming from the exchange pool as the big exchange companies are doing. You are comparing apples and oranges.

The other sites you mention are small volume, compared to the vast number of timeshare weeks out there. It is further quite disjointed rather than comprehensive and thus is a poorly organized market.

I don't know about other areas, but on the OBX 70% of owners use their own weeks. The exchangers are important, because if they all walked away at once, their would be major financial issues. Most HOA's do not want to hassle with being in the rental business themselves or take the pittiance they would get from someone like RCI. If RCI crashes the exchange program, most HOA's, I suspect will seek to market weeks to others who want to use at the home resort or exchange with another exchange company. Individual owners who want to rent their weeks will do so primarily through local agencies, not RCI. I do not beleive the rental program with RCI you propose would appeal to many owners. Most who exchange would either use other exchange companies, sell out, or bail out.

In the immediate future, I have a lot of travel plans that do not work with timeshare, so last year, I rented one of my summer OBX weeks, and this year, I already have one of them rented and will probably place the other up for rent. My renters came from the resort website last year and the resort builiten board this year, at 0% cost to me. Why would anyone give someone like RCI 50% to rent their weeks. If they did at the rental rates RCI is charging, it would not leave enough left to pay the m/f for many resorts.

I just don't see either HOA's or owners going for your vision of RCI. That dog won't hunt.




BocaBum99 said:
This question is irrelevent to my point. I said the rental market is being created. Forget the exchange companies, everyone is renting timeshares. There's the traditional timeshare rental sites, ebay, Marriott, Disney, Bluegreen and others. Everyone has rental programs and it is expanding not contracting. Heck, even the independents all rent weeks.

Your question is analogous to making the assertion in 1985 that cell phones will never take off because there is no widescale marketing outlets for selling cell phones directly to consumers. That would have been an incorrect assertion.

It's starting with the exchange companies because that is where the inventory currently resides. The balance of power will shift as more resort groups or mini-point systems get created. They will control the deposits over time and not RCI or II.

Your relabelling of RCI to rentals condominiums international is one of your best insights ever. Now, I understand that that was just a sarcastic label. So, you were right for the wrong reason. But right nonetheless.

The big battle in timesharing will be who will be the first to control the wholesale deposits for mass rentals. Since II and RCI are the incumbents, they are in the best position to do so.

To change to a pure rental model, all RCI has to do is provide cash instead of points or exchange credits for deposits. The way to do this is to allow renting RCI points. Let there be a market for RCI points on eBay like there is for WorldMark credits. Then, RCI will be giving points to timesharers that will turn those points into cash. RCI rents the weeks or allows their depositers to rent directly from them. No conflict of interest since the depositer is getting paid upfront.

Right now, what RCI is doing is learning the rental markets for various timeshares. When they get enough data, they will feel much more comfortable in switching completely to Rentals Condominiums International and you will go down in history as the first person to predict their new name.
 

BocaBum99

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jerseygirl said:
Oh ... I'm pretty clear on what the owner is SUPPOSED to get. But, if the exchange company is removing weeks unfairly, then they're not getting access to everything they're entitled too. You generally ignore that point in your arguments. :)

I have said in other posts that I think RCI renting spacebank weeks is wrong in the current RCI weeks exchange model. And, when that happens, some (but not all) exchangers lose out. What I have a problem with is the current RCI weeks exchange model. Much more so than how RCI is manipulating it.

As an aside, all systems are manipulated by companies AND consumers. Neither is completely innocent. There are countless numbers of people on this board who manipulate the RCI weeks system unethically by doing tricks that are against the rules. They happen to find a loophole in the system that enables them to exploit it and they do. After all, loose lips sink ships.

Back to RCI renting spacebank weeks. I believe it is wrong for the same reasons that most people on these boards say its wrong. I don't need to elaborate on that point because there is so many people on these boards doing it, I am not adding anything to the discussion and debate.

I also believe that what RCI says they are doing is NOT illegal. I don't in fact know what they do specifically or if the accounting is sound or bogus. I hope this class action lawsuit reveals that for all to see. Then, we will know for sure. But, I am not holding my breath for that improbably outcome.

In addition, what RCI claims to be doing is theoretically sound when they say they are doing like for like trades out of the spacebank to rent weeks to pay for points products. Nothing wrong with that either. It's just a matter of trust. If you don't trust the company, don't do business with them. Or, if you do do business with them, make sure that you get equal or more out of it or quit doing business with them.

This has all been a long winded way to say again, but in a different way what I have always said. The best way to regulate RCI is for depositers to use them if they are happy with what they take out. If they aren't, they should quit. If everyone did that, then RCI will be kept in check. When lawyers get involved, the lawyers get rich and the consumers pay the bill.
 

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There is a big problem when they are renting WEEKS inventory to pay for non-timeshare POINTS products!

They are degrading their core business to offer unnecessary frills. The thing to do is stop the frills and stop the rentals.

What consumers can do is get the word out that this is happening to RCI, and that there are other companies out there that still concentrate on their core business of exchanging.
 

BocaBum99

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Carolinian said:
I just don't see either HOA's or owners going for your vision of RCI. That dog won't hunt.

A couple of points. This is a fun debate and I am glad that we are not degenerating into name calling. Let's continue to let the power of the arguments carry the day.

First of all, you keep talking about the big picture. Your view of the big picture is limited to current timesharing participants. Timesharing has only penetrated 3% of the US population after 40 years of existence. Penetration in other countries is far lower. I would say that from a mass market point of view, it has remained a niche product. In the big scheme of things, it has been a market failure.

If we are to considre the future of timesharing, we need to determine what are the necessary preconditions for it to penetrate 20% of the World Population. The big companies are trying to determine a) whether or not it will ever happen, b) who is best positioned to win and capture the lion share of profit, c) what are the necessary preconditions for the market to manifest itself and d) how can they influence it.

This is the point of view I am coming from in this debate. And, I have been studying not just timesharing, but adjacent markets such as condo hotels, vacation ownership by owners and the regular rental condo markets.

Macroeconomically, the US population will continue to drive the timesharing industry forward. The demographics and aging population is creating idea conditions for continued investment in vacation products. Due to the fantastic economics of timeshares (when done right), it can be made affordable to families in all income levels. Timesharing is the ONLY vacation product where this is true.

As the market develops, the winners will have the most efficient model for delivering what consumers want. One hypothesis I have is that consumers do NOT want the unpredictability of timeshare weeks exchange. Rather, they want something that more resembles the hotel reservation system that they are very familiar with.

To me, the most efficient model for timesharing is big resort groups operated by resort management companies. Owners can reserve any week in the system for free as part of their annual dues and maintenance fees. They either use, rent for profit or direct exchange their units through the resort group exchange program. The resort group does its own rentals and because it will often times be a recognized brand, the rates they command will be much higher than what the owner can get on their own. Therefore, a 50/50 split could yield more than what the owner can get on their own.

Current owners and HOAs will have no choice in the matter. They will adapt to the new realities of timesharing or see their investment dwindle as others pass them by.
 
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BocaBum99

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Carolinian said:
There is a big problem when they are renting WEEKS inventory to pay for non-timeshare POINTS products!

They are degrading their core business to offer unnecessary frills. The thing to do is stop the frills and stop the rentals.

What consumers can do is get the word out that this is happening to RCI, and that there are other companies out there that still concentrate on their core business of exchanging.


Frill is in the eye of the beholder. One person's steak is another person's sizzle.
 

BocaBum99

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Carolinian said:
In the immediate future, I have a lot of travel plans that do not work with timeshare, so last year, I rented one of my summer OBX weeks, and this year, I already have one of them rented and will probably place the other up for rent. My renters came from the resort website last year and the resort builiten board this year, at 0% cost to me. Why would anyone give someone like RCI 50% to rent their weeks. If they did at the rental rates RCI is charging, it would not leave enough left to pay the m/f for many resorts.

This post is absolutely precious. Even Carolinian is resorting to renting.

If someone could rent your week for 2.5 times what your resort could, that would net you more even if you pay that provider 50%. If that were true, you would be losing money to stick to your principles.

Heck, why don't you limit your rentals to owners at that OBX resort. That would support the notion of exclusivity. I wouldn't recommend it because I wouldn't want to see you get less profit than you deserve.

I believe 50% splits won't last long. 15-35% makes more sense long term. I just wanted to point out that there are markets where 50% split is in force.
 

Carolinian

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The present owner base is substantial. If you are correct and RCI wants to forfeit that market for the rental scheme you project, I am quite sure that there will be other companies who want to pick it up. The transition is likely to be quite messy, however, resulting in a fair amount of dislocation until eveyone figures out which way to jump.

The simple fact is that if I am going to just rent, I am not going to lock myself in to one operator. I will use cash.

When it comes to rental by a private owner, that is not at all inconsistent with either exchanging or using. Indeed I had rented a summer OBX week once in the past when I had enough deposit credits for what I wanted to do and trip plans for areas where timeshare didn't really work. The problem comes in when exchange companies betray the trust of their depositors to misuse the deposits to undermine both exchanging and owner rentals.

If RCI required a signed spacebank deposit form and had a prominent statement saying that RCI reserved the right to rent out the week deposited if it choose to, I suspect their deposits would fall off substantially. What they are doing now they are doing by stealth with many of their members, and that is hardly honest.
 

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As President of the Greater New York Timeshare Owners Group (a volunteer run group)I interact with hundreds of timeshare owners. Most of them have never heard of TUG and despite frequent recommendations that they visit this web site, few follow through. Many did not have access to the Internet until the last year or two. They tend to be older folks who have owned fixed weeks for several years. During our first contact with them, most express dissatisfaction over the exchanges (or lack therof) they have been offered by RCI in recent years. They look back on all the great vacations they used to take, and wonder why they are no longer able to get those kind of exchanges. None were aware of the rental activity RCI has been engaging in on an accelerating basis. And most were shocked and outraged to learn that the weeks they have deposited with RCI were not necessarily going to other ts owners as exchanges. Word will undobtedly spread to their baby boomer children and grandchildren. The expected future ts purchases from these groups may not materialize if they keep hearing complaints about ts ownership from their respected elders.

Clearly when RCI began engaging in this practise, which represented a significant change in their long-standing business model, they did not send out notices to their members (like the banks and credit card companies are required to do) nor did they highlight it in the fine print in the annual directory. I did not even know they had inserted the phrase about their right to rent or otherwise use deposited weeks until it was posted here on TUG a couple of years back. It certainly was not in writing when many of us became RCI members in the 1980's or early 90's. I did know of their public rental activity which began with the Mall Perks program and then through onsale.com where I "won" a 2 bedroom lock-off week in Williamburg at Christmas for $9.00 (I'm guessing this was about 1998?). There was quite an outcry from TUGgers and other RCI members about renting weeks to the general, non-timeshare owning public and the programs were quickly withdrawn.

I strongly suspect that only a tiny percentage of RCI members are aware of RCI's rental activity. So to say that people who do not like what RCI is doing should terminate their membership is not really viable.

In a white paper produced by RCI two years ago, they boasted about the fact that they were able to provide acceptable exchanges for about 92% of their 3 million members. But what about the 240,000 members who received nothing? What happened to all of those weeks? And of the people who received an exchange, how many of them really got what they requested, or at least something comparable in size and quality to what they deposited? How many may have settled for something not at all to their liking, just so that their week would not go to waste? Or how many (like one of our newer members) received a studio week in Palm Springs in the brutal heat of summer in exchange for the 2 bedroom Gold Crown February Hawaii week they deposited 18 months in advance AND thought it was a wonderful exchange? I guess ignorance can be bliss, as the saying goes.

I am proud to say that in the past year alone, I have helped 12 people rescind their purchase of over-priced developer weeks at inferior resorts, usually during off-season. My husband works for a large organization. Everyone there knows him as "the timeshare guy" because we own 15 weeks and travel extensively to dream locations. (I have been a TUGger since 1995 and it is here that I learned what to buy and how to trade). When a friend or relative of one of hubby's co-worker's buys a timeshare, they are immediately told to call me to see if they did the right thing. (I wish they would call BEFORE purchasing). Only one of the 13 people who called me in the past year actually bought something that met their needs, at the right price. The average person is still totally unaware of the resale market. The first thing I asked these people was: "Do you plan on using the week to stay at that resort most every year?" and every one of them said no, they would rarely or never want to go there. They stated that they bought the week because the salesperson showed them the RCI book and led them to believe that they could exchange into any one of the pictured resorts anytime they wished to do so. We all know how deceitful ts salespeople can be. Yet to this day most first time ts buyers are making the purchase because they have been sold "a false dream" about RCI exchanges.

I fault ARDA and other travel-related consumer protection agencies for not preparing an honest, factual "truth-in-exchanging" form and mandating that it be read to, and signed by, the customer as an integral part of the purchase process. I'd gladly write it for them!!! Under no circumstances should a person about to pay $13,000. for a one bedroom deep off-season blue week in a rundown low demand (at any time of the year)resort think that he will be able to readily exchange it for Aruba or Key West in February. But this is exactly what one of the 12 couples I helped was led to believe. And they are well educated, intelligent people who hold high paying managerial positions. I'm glad they spoke with me before the 7 day rescision period expired, and that they were able to cancel the sales contract. I told them that timeshare ownership can be very rewarding and I advised them to meet with hubby and I in the near future so we could help them find a more suitable timeshare at the right price. They replied that they will never buy a timeshare again because they have since talked to many unhappy owners and have been told that it is better to just rent what they want each year from owners or from "all those web sites where you can get weeks for less than the price an owner pays for annual maintenance fees."

As this information becomes more widely available, the whole timeshare ownership concept (including points)may be eroded, to the detriment to all of us. If people stop buying developer weeks, new ts properties will not be built.

The 15 weeks we own have been bought gradually over the past 11 years, via resale, at great bargain prices. All would readily sell now for more than we paid. All but one are fixed weeks. They include 4 winter weeks at the Royal Resorts in Cancun, two consecutive Florida February weeks including President's week (in the same unit), 3 consecutive Cape Cod summer weeks (in the same unit), a July week in Brigantine New Jersey, and a Christmas week in Hawaii. We would gladly vacation there year after year.

I used to trade our weeks quickly through RCI for properties of equal desirability. When the rental games began, I waited months for requested weeks that kept popping up on web sites such as SkyAuction.com. So I stopped space-banking them. For the past 4 years I have been renting out our weeks, primarily through RedWeek.com, and then using the proceeds to rent exactly what I want from other owners who advertise on RedWeek or TUG. I keep my RCI membership mainly to obtain "Last Call" weeks and occasionally as Extra Holiday" rentals.

As more and more owners do as I do, RCI's inventory of prime weeks will dwindle. Many believe that a large number of the prime weeks that points owners are receiving have been "raided" from the "weeks bank." So if weeks owners stop depositing, points owners will also suffer.

I have also "won" dozens of very prime weeks on SkyAuction for 50% or less than I would have paid in maintenance fees had I owned the week. And I have no continuing responsibility to "juggle" the week every year, nor do I face any special assessments if the resort suffers severe hurricane damage, etc... For $26. Travel Guard insurance, if the week I obtained through SkyAuction is not habitable, all my fees are refunded, and even the cost of the airline tickets purchased to go to the resort are refunded. (This happened to me once).

As others have stated, I applaud a lawsuit so that RCI's activities can be examined and if found to be detrimental to members, corrective action can be mandated. Even though I have found ways to enjoy timeshare ownership without RCI exchanges, too many owners lack the knowledge and skill to do so. Most bought their weeks with a promise of fair RCI exchanges and they deserve to receive that.
 

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Well said, Jennie!

On the OBX, several resorts have noticed a dropoff in exchange deposits recently. I think people as figuring out from their own experiences that something is rotten in the state of RCI, although they do not have the info availible to Tuggers to put their finger on exactly what it is like we can. Someone long involved in the resale business also commented to me that it used to be that complaints about RCI were almost never heard as a reason for putting weeks up for resale, and now it is an all-too-common chorus from sellers. People are figuring out that something is wrong, and it has potential to damage the entire industry, iin spite of the brave new world models that some postulate.

BTW, do you also suggest to some of the concerned owners that they look into using some of the independents like HTSE, SFX, and DAE? These companies have a commitment to timesharing that is now sadly lacking at RCI.
 
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huestous

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Jennie said:
I strongly suspect that only a tiny percentage of RCI members are aware of RCI's rental activity. So to say that people who do not like what RCI is doing should terminate their membership is not really viable.
I disagree with this type of statement.

If I am unhappy with a service that I have purchased (e.g. lawncare, health club, timeshare exchange company, etc), I could care less about the business or management details that are the root cause of that unhappiness. I simply terminate the service.

Why would I spend my time and energy concerning myself over those details? There are too many other choices out there.
 

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I think you may have missed Jennie's point.

If I interpret her remarks correctly, she is suggesting that so few RCI members are aware of the rental activity that membership cancellations by those who don't like the activity won't have much (if any) adverse impact on RCI.

I don't read that as suggesting that you keep your membership if you are unhappy.
 

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That, and not everyone knows there's a choice, which could easily keep many unhappy customers at RCI.

I didn't find any mention in the last few papers of the lawsuit, so I sent in a tip. RCI has their giant HQ here. People remember the de Haan's and still see Christel giving giant chunks of cash to worthy causes here. Funny, you never hear about RCI "giving back to the community". No hospital wings donated by Cendant either.
 

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[Message deleted. TUG's rules prohibit messages of a commercial nature that offer or solicit sales, rentals, services, customers or clients - either directly or on behalf of another business. Dave M, BBS Administrator]
 
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I have membership in RCI thru Fairfield. When Fairfield sent me the papers for RCI membership in stated RCI membership terms on reverse, I turned the paper over...and the reverse side was blank. I called Fairfield and they mailed me a microscopic copy of the terms. Being that the print was sooooo small I could not read. Anyway, my point is without tug, I would not have been aware of RCI renting weeks. That certainly explains why I can see nothing available - except if I want to pay via Extra RCI Vacations, they seem to show up there! :eek:
 

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[Edited to delete message commenting on a moderator's edit of a previous post. Dave M, BBS Administrator]
 
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BocaBum99 said:
Frill is in the eye of the beholder. One person's steak is another person's sizzle.

But at the end of the day, it is what it is. If you only eat sizzle all day, you will starve to death.

We are talking core business (timeshare exchanging) vs. everything else (frills). Its time they paid attention to the core business.
 

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RCI has always stated in their paperwork that they can do what they want with a deposited week. The major problem I have is that they can do what they want with the week I give them, but I can't do what I want with the week they give me.


JMHO,
cindy
 

Carolinian

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NTHC said:
RCI has always stated in their paperwork that they can do what they want with a deposited week. The major problem I have is that they can do what they want with the week I give them, but I can't do what I want with the week they give me.


JMHO,
cindy

What little bit they have said is buried in the bowels of their fine print. Not a very effective disclosure.

If nothing else, when members get their class action mailing, THAT should give much more publicity to what they are doing.

I think other exchange companies should hammer RCI hard on this issue and take their business, both resorts and individual members. At least one is already raising the issue.
 

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Maybe not

Carolinian said:
If nothing else, when members get their class action mailing, THAT should give much more publicity to what they are doing.
Assumptions piled on theories topped with hopes. This lacks a firm foundation of proven facts.
 

NTHC

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Carolinian,
Not trying to discount anything that you are for....however, fine print is everywhere. People don't read the fine print at the dentists office, the car dealership or before they say yes to the free weekend. The disclaimer is always in the fine print.

And I am not for or against either side in this matter. I have seen just as many people lie to get the free gifts as I have seen developers lie to sell.

I simply think the playing field should be even. If RCI rents my week 52 in coastal CA for $1100 good for them. If I rent the week I traded for in Myrtle Beach for $850 good for me.

They shouldn't have it both ways.

JMHO,
Cindy
 

Carolinian

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While I would take the position that nobody should rent exchange inventory, I agree that it is really hypocritical of RCI to cancel members accounts if they catch them renting exchanges when RCI puts its own fingers in the till many times every day doing exactly the same thing.


NTHC said:
Carolinian,
Not trying to discount anything that you are for....however, fine print is everywhere. People don't read the fine print at the dentists office, the car dealership or before they say yes to the free weekend. The disclaimer is always in the fine print.

And I am not for or against either side in this matter. I have seen just as many people lie to get the free gifts as I have seen developers lie to sell.

I simply think the playing field should be even. If RCI rents my week 52 in coastal CA for $1100 good for them. If I rent the week I traded for in Myrtle Beach for $850 good for me.

They shouldn't have it both ways.

JMHO,
Cindy
 
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