Questions on PIC Plus Program

[HitchHiker71]

Wife and I just attended an update (yes, I know... we always say 'never again'... but then they dangled the free show tickets in front of us and as per usual we lost all train of thought). Anyway, the two ladies assigned to lie to us were trying hard to get us to buy PR (minimum developer 245k points or something like that, at over $300k)... but then she said it looked like we had a PIC as one of our contracts, which I had never heard of (or if I had heard it previously, I ignored it because I didn't know what it was). She quickly changed the subject and she seemed to not want to explain what a PIC actually was, she played (?) dumb after that. SO, as soon as I could, I hopped on here knowing the TUG community would have the REAL story on PICs. Unfortunately when I search for "PIC" I get a "too many results" result... so I'm just randomly browsing now, but appreciate this discussion considerably! You've piqued my interest. We're currently at Gold, thanks to 20+ years of older family members nibbling away at developer contracts... but now contemplating a cheap way to move to platinum. I'll keep listening to any discussion on PICs and would welcome any pointers to other related threads. The closer we're getting to retirement and the ability to travel seriously, the more time I'm spending on TUG. I appreciate you all!

Here’s a good article on the Wyndham PIC program. The pricing is a bit dated (CWA will be more price-wise in 2025), but all of the rest of the data in tue article has not changed:

https://wyndhamexperts.wpcomstaging.com/2019/07/27/wyndham-pic-program/ The Wyndham PIC Program – Wyndham Experts


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[thedaltongang]

Do you own another non wyndham timeshare? If so which one? Did you own it before you purchased your Wyndham points? If not then you don't have a PIC week. If you do, how many bedrooms does it have?

We don't own any non Wyndham points or anything else... so I was pretty sure she either had the wrong paperwork in front of her, or was accidentally letting something out of the bag. Either way, I knew I needed to do a little more homework!

 

[thedaltongang]

Three and four bedroom units are counted as 254k points towards VIP and also when deposited to get the Wyndham points for them. Owners can have a max of two PIC weeks. That's 508k points before the purchase to enroll the PIC weeks.

Note: Make very sure the weeks you want to PIC are in your name and showing in your RCI account before proceeding with a purchase to enroll them. Wyndham does verify them and they can only be added at the time of the purchase not later.

Telesales offers the best prices on CWA points. There might be some wiggle room on the price so be sure to try. Promotions run a few months, maybe quarterly, for the discounts and rebates they can offer you. You also get bonus points with Telesales purchases.

You'll have to purchase a minimum of 49k points for each PIC week fo 98k. The promotions and rebates typically start at 100k. Sometimes it works out to be a better deal to purchase more than 100k points because of a bigger discount being offered on more points. The rebates are fairly standard so they don't change as far as I know.

You're currently Gold VIP, 800k+ points? If you enrolled 2 three or four bedroom PIC weeks counting as 508k points plus the 98k required purchased points that should make you Founders VIP.

There's four bedroom weeks at the Massanutten associations often offered here on TUG in the Free Giveaways and Bargain Deals too. The Williamsburg Vacation Village resort had three bedroom units. I don't know if they ever show up in the cheap or free listings.

We're grandfathered Gold (only 777k points)... but reviewing all the discussions on PICs, I'm starting to try and figure out how to pick up a couple of those 3-4BR. I'll start looking for those PICs now. I'm assuming each of those has its own MF... and I assume those don't technically go away and lose their identity when you do the 49k CWA purchase, right? So when calculating total monthly cost, I assume that's a consideration... but unless they're crazy, it's still a way more affordable way to move to VIPP. (found the answer to this)

I clearly still have a lot to learn and am thankful for all you wise folks on here steering us noobs!! (we've been helping subsidize the family MF for years but now that the grandparents are gone, we've taken them all on have discovered there's a LOT to learn to make this all work well)

 

[thedaltongang]

Here’s a good article on the Wyndham PIC program. The pricing is a bit dated (CWA will be more price-wise in 2025), but all of the rest of the data in tue article has not changed:

https://wyndhamexperts.wpcomstaging.com/2019/07/27/wyndham-pic-program/ The Wyndham PIC Program – Wyndham Experts


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Thank you! I discovered this link in the stickies yesterday -- helpful!

I've never contemplated 'telesales' -- do they only offer CWA contracts that route, or do they have other.... hmm, now that I'm asking the question, I think I'm answering it myself. Probably can't combine a PIC with an actual deed (?), probably has to be part of the 'trust' or whatever they call CWA, ya?. But one thing I'm still actively considering (need to do the math)... we have a couple crappy old converted FW deeds with high MF, if I can combine those with a new (small) purchase to convert into low MF deed, it might be worth it long-haul. I will search for other similar threads, I can see the rabbit trails... [imemdiately opens 5 new browser tabs of TUG forums]

Grandkids on the horizon, so I'm trying to figure out how to smartly adjust our mediocre ownership to something that is a better value to everyone for the long-haul. That way, even if my wife and I pay for everything the next 20 years, and IF the kids later decide they want to continue with it...at least they won't think dad was an idiot.

Thanks again!!

 

[thedaltongang]

Three and four bedroom units are counted as 254k points towards VIP and also when deposited to get the Wyndham points for them. Owners can have a max of two PIC weeks. That's 508k points before the purchase to enroll the PIC weeks.

Note: Make very sure the weeks you want to PIC are in your name and showing in your RCI account before proceeding with a purchase to enroll them. Wyndham does verify them and they can only be added at the time of the purchase not later.

Telesales offers the best prices on CWA points. There might be some wiggle room on the price so be sure to try. Promotions run a few months, maybe quarterly, for the discounts and rebates they can offer you. You also get bonus points with Telesales purchases.

You'll have to purchase a minimum of 49k points for each PIC week fo 98k. The promotions and rebates typically start at 100k. Sometimes it works out to be a better deal to purchase more than 100k points because of a bigger discount being offered on more points. The rebates are fairly standard so they don't change as far as I know.

You're currently Gold VIP, 800k+ points? If you enrolled 2 three or four bedroom PIC weeks counting as 508k points plus the 98k required purchased points that should make you Founders VIP.

There's four bedroom weeks at the Massanutten associations often offered here on TUG in the Free Giveaways and Bargain Deals too. The Williamsburg Vacation Village resort had three bedroom units. I don't know if they ever show up in the cheap or free listings.

@Jan M. Thanks for the tip on Massanutten!! I cannot find any authoritative information on whether even/odd (biennial) weeks matters for the PIC/VIP status. Do you know, offhand? The biennial contracts have 1/2 the MF, wondering if that would still grant the VIP every year, or if they actually take that into account and somehow adjust your VIP based on the PIC rhythm. Neither the Wyndham page nor the Wyndhamexperts page address that (the only comments I've seen are speculative, not authoritative).

 

[HitchHiker71]

@Jan M. Thanks for the tip on Massanutten!! I cannot find any authoritative information on whether even/odd (biennial) weeks matters for the PIC/VIP status. Do you know, offhand? The biennial contracts have 1/2 the MF, wondering if that would still grant the VIP every year, or if they actually take that into account and somehow adjust your VIP based on the PIC rhythm. Neither the Wyndham page nor the Wyndhamexperts page address that (the only comments I've seen are speculative, not authoritative).

Basically the biennial contracts count for 50% of their points value on an annualized basis toward VIP - so if you purchase a 300k biennial contract - it only counts for 150k per year from a VIP perspective. There was a known loophole back many years ago where biennial contracts could be enrolled into PIC Plus but the system counted 100% of the biennial points every year - eventually Wyndham caught onto this and some owners were downgraded years later via account audits. Sales pushed this as a way to sell more contracts despite knowing it was a loophole that would likely eventually be corrected within the systems, just another reason why we call them sales weasels.

 

[thedaltongang]

Basically the biennial contracts count for 50% of their points value on an annualized basis toward VIP - so if you purchase a 300k biennial contract - it only counts for 150k per year from a VIP perspective. There was a known loophole back many years ago where biennial contracts could be enrolled into PIC Plus but the system counted 100% of the biennial points every year - eventually Wyndham caught onto this and some owners were downgraded years later via account audits. Sales pushed this as a way to sell more contracts despite knowing it was a loophole that would likely eventually be corrected within the systems, just another reason why we call them sales weasels.

Exactly what I suspected. Thank you, @HitchHiker71 !!

 

[Jan M.]

Thank you! I discovered this link in the stickies yesterday -- helpful!

I've never contemplated 'telesales' -- do they only offer CWA contracts that route, or do they have other.... hmm, now that I'm asking the question, I think I'm answering it myself. Probably can't combine a PIC with an actual deed (?), probably has to be part of the 'trust' or whatever they call CWA, ya?. But one thing I'm still actively considering (need to do the math)... we have a couple crappy old converted FW deeds with high MF, if I can combine those with a new (small) purchase to convert into low MF deed, it might be worth it long-haul. I will search for other similar threads, I can see the rabbit trails... [imemdiately opens 5 new browser tabs of TUG forums]

Grandkids on the horizon, so I'm trying to figure out how to smartly adjust our mediocre ownership to something that is a better value to everyone for the long-haul. That way, even if my wife and I pay for everything the next 20 years, and IF the kids later decide they want to continue with it...at least they won't think dad was an idiot.

Thanks again!!

You can enroll PIC weeks with either a deeded point or CWA point purchase. Afaik telesales doesn't offer any better prices on deeded points than you can get buying at a sales center. It makes sense that the sales centers wouldn't want that.

I'd avoid a biennial week. Not sure if they're even eligible or would remain eligible in time.

Yes, you might want to consider readjusting your portfolio of what you own. If they'll give you a decent price on what you have towards rolling them over towards a new purchase at a lower maintenance fee resort.

Something to consider. Deeded points only give you a 13 month ARP/Advance Reservation Priority at your home resort. Some contracts were sold with a reciprocal resort meaning you have ARP also at that resort. If you frequently stay at your home resorts and use that ARP, keeping them might be advantageous. The appeal of CWA points to some owners is that you have the 13 month ARP at the resorts with inventory in CWA. The resorts in CWA have varying amounts of inventory; some have more than others. Here's something to be aware of when you have multiple deeds. Only points deeded at a resort can be used to book ARP stays at that resort. You cannot combine points deeded at different resorts to book an ARP stay.. However at 10 months or less we like to say points are points. Meaning both deeded and CWA points can be combined to make reservations.

If you're grandfather with unlimited housekeeping credits that makes your account more valuable to your family.

Here's something to consider. It would be a good idea to add everyone in the family who's at least 16 years old when you make the new purchase. They might tell you it's 18 but some owners have been able put 16 year olds on so I'd give it a try. If you're just buying CWA points to add the PIC weeks, I would add everyone to that contract.

Why add everyone? It's always better to be an owner than the guest of an owner. You don't have to use a guest reservation for them and don't have to worry about only having two annual exceptions to the Owner Priority lists for their stays. If a resort would be overbooked, which has happened, guest stays get cancelled first. Also resorts will usually try to grant unit requests for owners.

Something to know about the name to put on the PIC weeks. If the person or persons on the PICs are ever removed from the account, like if they pass and the family takes them off the account, the account will lose the PICs. Many people leave a deceased parent or spouse on the account to have an extra name to hold reservations when they're trying to decide which resort to stay at or piece together stays. Having extra names comes in very handy.

 

[HitchHiker71]

PIC contracts are non-transferable, so what Jan says above is especially important if your kids ever want to inherit the account. Add your kids to the account if you can, or to the developer contract you purchase along with the PIC contracts. Otherwise the PICs will fall off when you pass on since they are non-transferable. I wish I did this back in 2018.


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[meetseti]

@thedaltongang I sent you a PM

 

[thedaltongang]

You can enroll PIC weeks with either a deeded point or CWA point purchase. Afaik telesales doesn't offer any better prices on deeded points than you can get buying at a sales center. It makes sense that the sales centers wouldn't want that.

I'd avoid a biennial week. Not sure if they're even eligible or would remain eligible in time.

Yes, you might want to consider readjusting your portfolio of what you own. If they'll give you a decent price on what you have towards rolling them over towards a new purchase at a lower maintenance fee resort.

Something to consider. Deeded points only give you a 13 month ARP/Advance Reservation Priority at your home resort. Some contracts were sold with a reciprocal resort meaning you have ARP also at that resort. If you frequently stay at your home resorts and use that ARP, keeping them might be advantageous. The appeal of CWA points to some owners is that you have the 13 month ARP at the resorts with inventory in CWA. The resorts in CWA have varying amounts of inventory; some have more than others. Here's something to be aware of when you have multiple deeds. Only points deeded at a resort can be used to book ARP stays at that resort. You cannot combine points deeded at different resorts to book an ARP stay.. However at 10 months or less we like to say points are points. Meaning both deeded and CWA points can be combined to make reservations.

If you're grandfather with unlimited housekeeping credits that makes your account more valuable to your family.

Here's something to consider. It would be a good idea to add everyone in the family who's at least 16 years old when you make the new purchase. They might tell you it's 18 but some owners have been able put 16 year olds on so I'd give it a try. If you're just buying CWA points to add the PIC weeks, I would add everyone to that contract.

Why add everyone? It's always better to be an owner than the guest of an owner. You don't have to use a guest reservation for them and don't have to worry about only having two annual exceptions to the Owner Priority lists for their stays. If a resort would be overbooked, which has happened, guest stays get cancelled first. Also resorts will usually try to grant unit requests for owners.

Something to know about the name to put on the PIC weeks. If the person or persons on the PICs are ever removed from the account, like if they pass and the family takes them off the account, the account will lose the PICs. Many people leave a deceased parent or spouse on the account to have an extra name to hold reservations when they're trying to decide which resort to stay at or piece together stays. Having extra names comes in very handy.

Very insightful, thank you @Jan M. !!

 

[thedaltongang]

PIC contracts are non-transferable, so what Jan says above is especially important if your kids ever want to inherit the account. Add your kids to the account if you can, or to the developer contract you purchase along with the PIC contracts. Otherwise the PICs will fall off when you pass on since they are non-transferable. I wish I did this back in 2018.


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Thank you, @HitchHiker71 ! I’ve debated the pros and cons of adding the kids (all married now). My fear is that SOMEDAY they’d inherit maintenance fees they may not want… but we’re having those discussions.