Questions about using the VIP discount 60-day window

[lcml11]

Thank you I did check availability and the 1st 3 nights are good the full 5 nights no good - memorial day weekend so I will not chance it!

Unless you have enough points to hold onto the 1st one and book the second one then cancel the first one, wise move.

 

[JudyS]

Thanks for all the information!

Be careful what you wish for..you might get the same addiction that Jim and I have....
That 50% platinum discount sounds nice until you realize that the million points you own must have been purchased from Wyndham and would cost you roughly $150000 .

There have been suggestions before for Tuggers to set up a "Timeshare Addicts Anonymous" group, but we'd probably just talk about the great deals we've gotten, and wind up even more addicted!

For the moment, I'm safe from developing a Wyndham VIP addiction, as I have nowhere near $150,000 lying around! (How very "lucky" for me! )

I do wonder why there are silver, gold, and platinum levels of VIP. Since "VIP" means "Very Important Person," shouldn't the different status levels be called "Very Important Person," "Very Very Important Person," and "Very Very Very Important Person"? Or, perhaps they could be called "Very Important Person," "More Important Person," and "Most Important Person"?

why not buy 2 million points on the resale market at lets say $10,000. Your mf will be twice as much at about $11000, but you still have 140,000 in the bank. Put that into a nice tax free muni bond fund at 4% and you will have enough income each year to pay half your mf...Now, just like the guy that bought his points from Wyndham you have the use of 2 million points and you have your money in your account rather than Wyndhams.

Excellent analysis! But Ron, you have silver VIP benefits, right? So, why did you bother getting VIP? Did you find a cheaper way to get VIP, or did you get to VIP before discovering resale purchases, or do you feel the VIP benefits are more cost-effective because you are using them along with your (much larger?) pool of resale points?

....
Let's take an example. One has a million Developer points at BC and around November 20 2013 books hot 2014 Christmas units, 3-4 BRs. Around October 21 2014 cancels and rebooks successfully, so now has 500K points. What can they reasonable do with them? Wild assumption does another book somewhere cancel and rebook so still has 250K points to put to RCI with no bonus and its fees!

So, the idea here is that rebooking will free up some points, but the points may be close to expiring and therefore would have little value? Have I understood correctly?

Assuming doing rentals.

Now Swifter who has done home work and reads TUG buys say four 500K contracts at say BC, LBM, Daytona and where MF are really cheap as he will use plus left overs from preceding.

He locks reservations and rental contracts at 13 months , no worry about EH stealing.

What is EH stealing?

 

[pacodemountainside]

Thanks for all the information!

There have been suggestions before for Tuggers to set up a "Timeshare Addicts Anonymous" group, but we'd probably just talk about the great deals we've gotten, and wind up even more addicted!

For the moment, I'm safe from developing a Wyndham VIP addiction, as I have nowhere near $150,000 lying around! (How very "lucky" for me! )

I do wonder why there are silver, gold, and platinum levels of VIP. Since "VIP" means "Very Important Person," shouldn't the different status levels be called "Very Important Person," "Very Very Important Person," and "Very Very Very Important Person"? Or, perhaps they could be called "Very Important Person," "More Important Person," and "Most Important Person"?



Excellent analysis! But Ron, you have silver VIP benefits, right? So, why did you bother getting VIP? Did you find a cheaper way to get VIP, or did you get to VIP before discovering resale purchases, or do you feel the VIP benefits are more cost-effective because you are using them along with your (much larger?) pool of resale points?

So, the idea here is that rebooking will free up some points, but the points may be close to expiring and therefore would have little value? Have I understood correctly?


What is EH stealing?

Yes, it appears to me one would have trouble making desired reservations last couple months of the year.

Following is from VOI Trust which governs the operation of the Club Wyndham system. As stated, it can legally take 90% of available inventory at 60 day mark. It is rumored, but not documented they have some kinda of priority that allows them to grab cancels before they can be rebooked in very tight window of seconds.

1991 VOI Trust Agreement

11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate.

I will leave it Ron to address your other question. I would imagine it involved PICing and or trade in or foreclosure deal..

 

[jebloomquist]

1991 VOI Trust Agreement

11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate.

Paco, your quote from the VOI Trust Agreement may shed light on one of my original questions. If Wyndham has a trigger at 60 days to hunt down and consume, ie, reserve available accommodations, it might be wise to wait a few days within the 60 days to check-in before doing a cancel/rebook. Furthermore, it would be a good idea to make any cancel/rebook moves before the 30 day mark. I'm thinking that there might be some sweet spot 55-30 days before check-in.

I have some 500k reservations coming up this summer, and I certainly would like to get them down to 250k, but I can't afford to lose them. When I am throwing 500k here and again there, it takes a lot of points to have backups. Plus, there aren't any available backup accommodations, even if I had the points. So, it's a gamble.

Jim

 

[pacodemountainside]

yu9ysaQUOTE=jebloomquist;1446480]Paco, your quote from the VOI Trust Agreement may shed light on one of my original questions. If Wyndham has a trigger at 60 days to hunt down and consume, ie, reserve available accommodations, it might be wise to wait a few days within the 60 days to check-in before doing a cancel/rebook. Furthermore, it would be a good idea to make any cancel/rebook moves before the 30 day mark. I'm thinking that there might be some sweet spot 55-30 days before check-in.

I have some 500k reservations coming up this summer, and I certainly would like to get them down to 250k, but I can't afford to lose them. When I am throwing 500k here and again there, it takes a lot of points to have backups. Plus, there aren't any available backup accommodations, even if I had the points. So, it's a gamble.

Jim[/QUOTE]

IMO it would definitely behoove one to do the cancel and rebook at say 2:00PM on day 53 Wednesday afternoon when people are at work or in school, but no consensus. However, us retirees do tend to hang out on line!

If EH does have on going search capability then one will get zapped.

Since Gold VIPs can upgrade at 45 days would definitely do before then.

Several years ago there was an article in a TS magazine that all Wyndham employees including those at motels along with military got inventory really cheap at 45 days.. Has anyone ever heard of this?

I would not do unless lots of inventory or solid Plan B!

I would think the sweet spot has to be the 16-20 day window.

 

[bnoble]

I have some 500k reservations coming up this summer, and I certainly would like to get them down to 250k, but I can't afford to lose them.

If you can't afford to lose them, and don't have a reasonable backup, I'd think twice before cancel/rebooking. But, I'm conservative when it comes to these things.

 

[JudyS]

Yes, it appears to me one would have trouble making desired reservations last couple months of the year.

Following is from VOI Trust which governs the operation of the Club Wyndham system. As stated, it can legally take 90% of available inventory at 60 day mark. It is rumored, but not documented they have some kinda of priority that allows them to grab cancels before they can be rebooked in very tight window of seconds.

1991 VOI Trust Agreement

11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use......

Thanks for the information!

The part I've highlighted in red says Wyndham has to pay for the inventory it takes at 60 days, but it doesn't say how much Wyndham pays. Does anyone know if Wyndham pays a reasonable amount? (I feel Wyndham should pay the MFs on the full, non-discounted points cost.)

 

[ronparise]

Thanks for all the information!

There have been suggestions before for Tuggers to set up a "Timeshare Addicts Anonymous" group, but we'd probably just talk about the great deals we've gotten, and wind up even more addicted!

For the moment, I'm safe from developing a Wyndham VIP addiction, as I have nowhere near $150,000 lying around! (How very "lucky" for me! )

I do wonder why there are silver, gold, and platinum levels of VIP. Since "VIP" means "Very Important Person," shouldn't the different status levels be called "Very Important Person," "Very Very Important Person," and "Very Very Very Important Person"? Or, perhaps they could be called "Very Important Person," "More Important Person," and "Most Important Person"?



Excellent analysis! But Ron, you have silver VIP benefits, right? So, why did you bother getting VIP? Did you find a cheaper way to get VIP, or did you get to VIP before discovering resale purchases, or do you feel the VIP benefits are more cost-effective because you are using them along with your (much larger?) pool of resale points?

So, the idea here is that rebooking will free up some points, but the points may be close to expiring and therefore would have little value? Have I understood correctly?


What is EH stealing?

I did fine a cheaper way...There are a few possibilities, A deal with an owner that wants out...or a small purchase from Wyndham with 2 pic weeks or buy from a dying owner and inherit, or marry a VIP owner, are 4 possibilities that come to mind but Im not saying what I did... There was a day when you could bring in an unlimited number of PIC weeks with a single small developer purchase. There are Platinum owners that got there with relatively small purchases...That door is now closed...The VIP points requirements have been raised and the number of PIC weeks allowed is limited to 2

But even if you get vip cheap its almost never worth it....I justify it for myself because I own more points than the average owner and at least for now all my points enjoy the 25% discount close to check in, and I do a lot of last minute rentals...It helps a little each month at mf paying time.

and EH is extra Holidays...Wyndhams rental arm...I just got a etter offering to rent one of my recent purchases for me at 40% commission...no thank you

 

[lcml11]

deleted it attributed something to me that was not mine. See following post.

 

[lcml11]

Wyndham does or did do rentals through a travel agency on at least one post. If they were doing it at one location, then I assume it would be at a number of them. The rentals were through the Armed Service Vacation Club by Extra Vacations Rentals.

http://www.afvclub.com/military_mwr

I do not know if it is a great deal or not. Just a quick review, it appears the pricing may be comparable with the VIP Platinum dollar per night rate. Did not spend the time to see how many Wyndham Vacation Resort locations were involved.

My spot check, very limited, showed about $53 dollars a night for a low end price week through the Armed Force Vacation Club and about $35 dollars a night through last call for a low end price week.

 

[JudyS]

I did fine a cheaper way...There are a few possibilities, A deal with an owner that wants out...or a small purchase from Wyndham with 2 pic weeks or buy from a dying owner and inherit, or marry a VIP owner, are 4 possibilities that come to mind but Im not saying what I did... There was a day when you could bring in an unlimited number of PIC weeks with a single small developer purchase. There are Platinum owners that got there with relatively small purchases...That door is now closed...The VIP points requirements have been raised and the number of PIC weeks allowed is limited to 2

But even if you get vip cheap its almost never worth it....I justify it for myself because I own more points than the average owner and at least for now all my points enjoy the 25% discount close to check in, and I do a lot of last minute rentals...It helps a little each month at mf paying time.

and EH is extra Holidays...Wyndhams rental arm...I just got a etter offering to rent one of my recent purchases for me at 40% commission...no thank you

OK, I understand now. Thanks for the explanation!

 

[pacodemountainside]

Thanks for the information!

The part I've highlighted in red says Wyndham has to pay for the inventory it takes at 60 days, but it doesn't say how much Wyndham pays. Does anyone know if Wyndham pays a reasonable amount? (I feel Wyndham should pay the MFs on the full, non-discounted points cost.)

The VOI Trust is responsible for reservations, administration , etc. of Club Wyndham Plus Program. It is supposed to have 3 Wyndham executives and 4 owners like us. However, through fancy lawyering Wyndham refuses to add 4 owners. So it is run by their Triumvirate Dictatorship "in our best interests".

If you have a have hour or so can read actual 80K document at:

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=1608&t=10935

Indeed Wyndham is supposed to reimburse Trust but there is no documentation they do. Certainly actual MF or CWA rate times points would be fair!

Trust audited financials clearly show Wyndham sales reimburses around $12 Million for VIP benefits plus replaces points used by VIPs.

If someone is going to big meeting in May they could ask the VOI Trust Controller/Treasurer and if so how much?

 

[chapjim]

I have some questions for those of you who are VIPs and have experience getting your VIP discount using the online Wyndham system to cancel and rebook a reservation within 60 days of check-in.

1) How successful have you been using this technique?
2) What time frame within the 60-day discount window have you found to be most effective, such as 60 days out, 50 days out, etc.?
3) Are there times within the 60 days where you have lost reservations? If so, when?
4) Are there times when you just won’t chance a cancel/rebook for fear of losing a reservation?

Thank you. Jim

1) Very successful. I've lost five reservations in two years that I cared about. All had been rented but I do full disclosure to my renters. I tell them what I'm doing and they bear the risk of my losing the reservation. Their alternative is to pay full price. No one has taken the full price option. I have also had extraordinary success combining rebooking with upgrades. So, for example, I have a 4BR Pres unit at Bonnet Creek that cost me 56,000 points.

2) I used to start re-booking at 7:01 AM on day 60 but now I wait until maybe day 55, plus or minus one or two.

3) Lost one in April 2011, three late in 2012 (all for the same dates at La Belle Maison), and one this February. I do not attribute any of those to someone beating me to the reservation after I cancelled. It takes me 20 seconds to rebook. Nor do I think Wyndham took them for Extra Holidays because they never showed up there. I think in every case, I lost the reservation because the resort had taken some units out of service.

4) No.

Jim

 

[BamaBlue]

I have upgraded several times but I have never tried the cancel and rebook discount. I do have two units booked that usually family goes and takes the other unit. this year, don't think they are going to make it, so I think I will try the cancel and rebook with the other unit. my question is:

how long does it usually take for the unit to show back up to be rebooked after you have cancelled it?
do you cancel it and then rebook it right away or how long does it take to be able to see it to rebook?

 

[jebloomquist]

I have upgraded several times but I have never tried the cancel and rebook discount. I do have two units booked that usually family goes and takes the other unit. this year, don't think they are going to make it, so I think I will try the cancel and rebook with the other unit. my question is:

how long does it usually take for the unit to show back up to be rebooked after you have cancelled it?
do you cancel it and then rebook it right away or how long does it take to be able to see it to rebook?

My experience is that in the past, 6 months or more ago, the opportunity to rebook would reappear in 15-20 seconds after I initiated a cancel.

As of late, it seems to take longer, in the range of 20-45 seconds. On some rare occasions, a property will vanish and not reappear until 7:00 am the next morning.

As soon as it reappears, it has to be rebooked, otherwise someone else will see it, and it will be gone.

Your heart will race just a little bit each time you cancel, but usually you will be successful with the rebooking.

Good luck.

Jim

 

[BamaBlue]

Thanks Jim...
The reason I was asking is that I cancelled a weekend trip a couple of weeks ago. I had Friday and Saturday night booked in Nashville. When I cancelled it, I just watched it and tried to see how soon it would be available to rebook. I watched it for about 10 minutes or so and nothing. Then, about 20 minutes later, I checked it and just the Saturday night was available. I wasn't sure if that is the way it worked other times or if it was sooner.. Sounds like it normally is available much sooner.

 

[wed100105]

I lost a unit at Bonnet Creek for this Easter. It was for friends and I will never play the game gain if I didn't have a second unit booked or a back up plan. I was able to find a guy in redweek and rent the unit from him (cost me an extra $100 over what I was charging my friends). Thank heavens it worked out. I stalked the website and it never came back in the system, not even as partial days. The guy I rented from and Ken Price, who does a ton of Bonnet Creek rentals, both said it had happened to them at day 59 or later. I think it has something to do with the specific resort. I had one bedrooms and three bedrooms (two of each) booked at the Wyndham Smoky mountains for summer and was able to do the cancel at 60 days and rebook for a discount and then at 45 days I didn't lose either three bedroom unit when I cancelled and upgraded. Now I only do it when I have a second unit to play around in the system. I don't think I would have tried it at the newer Smoky Mountain Resort though, unless I had the second st of reservations. I have a couple units at the Dells for summer and I am not risking it for te discount.

 

[cyseitz]

If I have both the 1 bedroom and 2 bedroom both booked, I find that if I cancel the 2 bedroom and click "check for upgrade" on the reservations page the upgrade will come in a few seconds. I just keep clicking "check for upgrade" then "close window" (however it is stated ), then go back to "check for upgrade" and repeat the steps until the upgrade shows.

I have been 100% successful using this method. However, I am quite new at the game

 

[vacationhopeful]

... However, I am quite new at the game

When you DO eventually lose one (and you will as we ALL have lost some over the years), don't take it personal.

It might have been one of US TUGGERS who scored a great deal. :ignore:

And the old saying is, "Live by the cancel & rebook with the discount trick; expect to lose, by the unsuccessful some of the time".

 

[cyseitz]

Yeah, I would be devastated if it was a reservation for a guest!

I hold my breath and say a prayer and my nerves are going crazy!! But so far so good.

 

[Ichiro]

Has anyone ever just called the vip reservation line and asked the operator to cancel and rebook?

 

[ronparise]

Has anyone ever just called the vip reservation line and asked the operator to cancel and rebook?

They will do it for you, but they dont give you any advantage...,they lose them too

 

[Bigrob]

They will do it for you, but they dont give you any advantage...,they lose them too

I'm surprised that recently, two different VC's have mentioned to me to be sure to call back and cancel/rebook with them. I'm surprised they're encouraged to do that.

I do believe they can do it faster through a different screen/view than we have. But you're right that there is still a risk that they can't get it back either if there is no other availability besides the unit you're canceling.

 

[lcml11]

I'm surprised that recently, two different VC's have mentioned to me to be sure to call back and cancel/rebook with them. I'm surprised they're encouraged to do that.

I do believe they can do it faster through a different screen/view than we have. But you're right that there is still a risk that they can't get it back either if there is no other availability besides the unit you're canceling.

If Wyndham is snatching up the better rental periods through Extra Holidays or wherever, then it would make since for them to do this. They get the better units to rent at the heavily discounted rate or for the cleaning costs (I think that is what they pay for the 60 day and under units they get).

Remember, Wyndham has multiple programs to rent units through.

 

[comicbookman]

I have had them suggest cancel/rebook on existing reservation when I have called about something else.