Question about strictness of enforcing Resale restrictions

[tuguser14]

From the P20 (PDF version) of the 2022 HVC Rules Booklet under "Ownership Changes":

"Persons who acquire their ownership interest
from the resale market may receive limited Club
benefits, including, but not limited to, restrictions
on the ability to convert ClubPoints into Hilton
Honors Points on an every use year basis and on
the use of Open Season rental benefits. Interests
acquired on the resale market may not qualify
for additional benefits, services or recognition
programs or tiers."

Does anyone have a sense for how often a resale owner is unable to use "Open Season" rentals?
What about converting unused points to Hilton Honors Points?

I ask because I was considering obtaining a low-cost resale as a way of "test driving" some of the features of HGCV, and a large part of that would be to see how well Open Season rentals work for me.

 

[Wright17s]

From the P20 (PDF version) of the 2022 HVC Rules Booklet under "Ownership Changes":

"Persons who acquire their ownership interest
from the resale market may receive limited Club
benefits, including, but not limited to, restrictions
on the ability to convert ClubPoints into Hilton
Honors Points on an every use year basis and on
the use of Open Season rental benefits. Interests
acquired on the resale market may not qualify
for additional benefits, services or recognition
programs or tiers."

Does anyone have a sense for how often a resale owner is unable to use "Open Season" rentals?
What about converting unused points to Hilton Honors Points?

I ask because I was considering obtaining a low-cost resale as a way of "test driving" some of the features of HGCV, and a large part of that would be to see how well Open Season rentals work for me.

I think HGVC is one of the programs who actually treat resale members quite well... I have multiple resale deeds and haven't experienced any restrictions - I've converted to Hilton Honors Points and used Open Season. The only widely known limitation is resale purchases don't qualify for Elite status, but that may or may not be important to you ( if you are looking to test drive HGVC than I wouldn't worry about Elite qualifying deeds for now ).

 

[GT75]

From the P20 (PDF version) of the 2022 HVC Rules Booklet under "Ownership Changes":

Good question. I don’t disagree with @Wright17s response however I don’t remember seeing that paragraph in the rules before either. I looked at the 2020 rules and I don’t see it in there (sorry, I am traveling and that is all I have access to). I know that I can next week look at my copy of the 2021 rules. I certainly know that the last people I would ask would be HGV salespeople. But then, I don’t know if HGV is planning on changing their current practice for resale owners in the future either. Do any other TUG members such as @dayooper or @alwysonvac or @Talent312 or @SmithOp have some insight.

 

[alwysonvac]

@GT75 I just looked at the 2021 documents.
That paragraph was just added in 2022 to both the 2022 Club Reference Guide and 2022 Disclosure Document. Based on this new paragraph it looks like they’re planning to make some sort of change but who knows when.

 

[dayooper]

Honestly, I have never used open season nor exchanged any points into HHonors (and don’t really plan to). @alwysonvac, @GT75 and others, I think this is a wait and see. There haven‘t been any changes yet and the word may tells me they are reserving the right to, but aren’t yet. Maybe that will come out on April 2nd?

As long as they don’t mess with the points and the ability to book HGVC resorts, I’m not going to worry too much.

 

[alwysonvac]

Honestly, I’m not surprised since Disney has made owner benefit changes over the years regarding resale vs direct purchases. If HGVC makes changes impacting resale owners, I’m assuming they would grandfather all existing resale owners effective as of the announcement.

@tuguser14
So far, nothing has been officially announced. No resale restrictions exist today (except Elite Status which requires a minimum of 14,000 ClubPoints). No idea if this means something is coming in 2022 or 2023. If you’re planning to purchase, just do it sooner rather than later

 

[brp]

Pretty soon they'll add a restriction that says that resale owners may lose the ability to pay more than they need to for the same timeshare property. Oh wait, we have that clause already...never mind

But the addition of resale differentiation is now starting to mimic other TS systems, as noted. I'm sure this is a start that will expand as Max gets rolled out.

Cheers.

 

[tuguser14]

Thanks for all of the responses so far.
To be honest, as someone that was on the fence about timeshare, that the company is willing to make these types of changes to devalue resales is enough to scare me off. I know that (1) I'll probably eventually not be able to use a feature I'm especially interested in (Open Season), and (2) there will be others like me, and that means that if I wanted to get rid of it in the future (be it a resale or developer purchase), I'd have an even harder time unloading it.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Datapoint. We own both developer and resale units and just purchased an Open Season stay.

Perhaps the guide also covers Diamond, which already has limitations for resale?

 

[GT75]

Honestly, @tuguser14, I wouldn’t recommend purchasing HGVC for either open season nor Hilton honor conversion anyways. These are side benefits that can easily be eliminated or reduced in the future. In fact, open season benefit was drastically reduced around 2014.

 

[Gwendyc]

I'm a resale owner, and we've booked 2 2-night open season stays in the past 4 months. I will be disappointed if they take that away, because I like the flexibility of staying 2 nights minimum instead of 3. But also I guess getting a 1 bedroom platinum EOY plan wasn't quite enough points for my family!

 

[SmithOp]

Well we all knew they could change the club rules at any time so this is a new precedent adding restrictions on resale owners. It's a slippery slope, hope they don't consider other changes. I can live with these restrictions as a resale owner since my typical use of points is for club reservations.

One thing this does is give potential buyers a rebuttal at a sales presentation, why buy a product that is devalued if sold later. It sure would degrade the value if they add other restrictions.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk

 

[alwysonvac]

Well we all knew they could change the club rules at any time so this is a new precedent adding restrictions on resale owners. It's a slippery slope, hope they don't consider other changes. I can live with these restrictions as a resale owner since my typical use of points is for club reservations.

One thing this does is give potential buyers a rebuttal at a sales presentation, why buy a product that is devalued if sold later. It sure would degrade the value if they add other restrictions.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk

I just checked the Reference Guide for the latest update regarding Program Changes.

2022 Version
Program Changes. Club program use options, fees and rules, including but not limited to, the RCI Exchange Program, special exchanges, nightly Point values, reservation windows, the Hilton Honors program, Saving, RCI Depositing, borrowing, converting, and ClubPartner Perks that may be offered from time to time, are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice. Any such changes may or may not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change. In the event the Point values for accommodations are adjusted, such adjustments shall not disturb the one-to-one purchaser to accommodation ratio, or a Club Member’s ability to reserve their Home Week. Any benefits or services offered in conjunction with specific promotions or pilot programs are subject to the additional terms of such promotion or pilot program.


2020 & 2021 version
Program Changes. Club program use options, fees and rules, including but not limited to, the RCI Exchange Program, special exchanges, nightly Point values, Reservation Windows, the Hilton Honors program, Saving, RCI depositing, borrowing, converting, and ClubPartner Perks that may be offered from time to time, are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice. Any such changes will not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change. In the event the Point values for accommodations are adjusted, such adjustments shall not disturb the one-to-one purchaser to accommodation ratio, or a Club Member’s ability to reserve their Home Week. Any benefits or services offered in conjunction with specific promotions or pilot programs are subject to the additional terms of such promotion or pilot program.

 

[alwysonvac]

Yeah, it’s definitely a slippery slope.

For years, HGVC has pushed the ability to travel the world via HGVC resorts, Club Affiliates and Hilton Hotels. However at the same time they have continued to substantially decrease the value of Hilton Honors and Open Season Rates over the years. As well as steadily increasing the number of Clubpoints required at newer properties.

OPEN SEASON CHANGES OVER THE YEARS
- Changed Open Season to Cash only (2 night minimum). ClubPoints removed.
- Changed Open Season to accommodate increases for weekends vs weekdays
- Changed Open Season to accommodate increases for the various seasons (first they only had Platinum broken out and Silver/Gold together)
- Changed Open Season to accommodate increase for ranges within season and by resort

CHANGES TO THE NUMBER OF CLUB POINTS REQUIRED

A week in a one bedroom during Platinum Season

• When we had a single point chart for all resorts, it ranged from 4,800 to 8,400 ClubPoints
• When Grand Waikikian and Kings Land was added, it ranged from 7,200 to 12,600 ClubPoints
• For Grand Islander which opened in 2017, a one bedroom now requires from 7,200 to 16,800 ClubPoints
• For Ocean Tower which opened in 2018, a one bedroom now requires from 4,800 to 16,800 ClubPoints

A week in a two bedroom during Platinum Season

• When we had a single point chart for all resorts, it ranged from 7,000 to 9,600 ClubPoints
• When Grand Waikikian and Kings Land was added, it ranged from 10,500 to 14,400 ClubPoints excluding the penthouse units for 24,000 ClubPoints
• For Grand Islander which opened in 2017, a two bedroom now requires from 8,400 to 19,200 ClubPoints excluding the penthouse units that range between 17,500 and 24,000 ClubPoints
• For Ocean Tower which opened in 2018, a two bedroom now requires from 10,500 to 19,200 ClubPoints excluding the penthouse units that range between 17,500 and 24,000 ClubPoints

Legend
Club Due (Domestic)
Club Due (International)
HGVC Changeable Reservation Fee (via Online)
HGVC Changeable Reservation Fee (via Phone)
Point Stretching Fee (via Online)
Point Stretching Fee (via Phone)
Guest Confirmation Fee
RCI Reservation Fee (via Online)
RCI Reservation Fee (via Phone)

Has Hilton/HGVC reduced the value of the resort points or the HH points like Marriott

I have not been on this Hilton Forum for awhile so please update me. Has Hilton/HGVC reduced the value of the resort points and the HHonors points like Marriott has? For instance, do you still get 23 hotel points per HGVC point if you convert all of your HGVC points by 12/31 in the...

tugbbs.com

 

[brp]

Any such changes may or may not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change.

I know that the rules say this, and it is possible. I find it unlikely that they would do this. DVC did not on two rounds of changes, and I would not be surprised to find that they had similar wording in their T&Cs. But, yes, it is possible.

Cheers.

 

[bogey21]

Benefit changes, fees, restrictions, etc. They all devalue the TS product...

George

 

[5finny]

My guess
Some restrictions will be implemented as part of Diamond integration

 

[Nowaker]

Does anyone have a sense for how often a resale owner is unable to use "Open Season" rentals?

From a business point of view, forbidding resale owners from using open season is against HGVC's best interest. A unit can either stay vacant, or can be booked open season last minute. I don't know how the money from an open season booking is split between HGVCorp and a resort, but my guess it's around 50/50. Everybody wins when an open season booking is made. Open season is here to stay for every owner, is my best bet.

 

[Magus]

Honestly, @tuguser14, I wouldn’t recommend purchasing HGVC for either open season nor Hilton honor conversion anyways. These are side benefits that can easily be eliminated or reduced in the future. In fact, open season benefit was drastically reduced around 2014.

Yup - and Hilton Honors points are losing their value every year so in 5 years the conversion will be even less valuable and in 15 years very limited value. Open season isnt that great a deal anymore in most cases. Most likely they will grandfather these in but the changes are worth keeping an eye on

 

[WORLD TRAVELER]

The problem with adding these restrictions is that the resale value will probably drop in the future, since resale buyers won't have the same benefits. Although Hilton has been very generous with resale purchasers, it appears that they are now going to be matching the other Hotel programs Marriott, Hyatt, Disney, etc., with limiting conversions to hotel points and other side benefits to direct purchases from the developer.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Okay which situation would you rather have?

1) (blue pill) You paid $5000 for resale and it is worth zero - you lose 100% of the value and $5000.

Or

2) (red pill) You paid $40000 developer and it is now worth zero. You lost $40,000 because of resale restrictions.

 

[elaine]

did blue pill give you years of HGVC usage until you gave it away for free on TUG?

 

[PigsDad]

Always the blue pill. It has other side benefits.

Kurt

 

[GonzSquad]

Okay which situation would you rather have?

1) (blue pill) You paid $5000 for resale and it is worth zero - you lose 100% of the value and $5000.

Or

2) (red pill) You paid $40000 developer and it is now worth zero. You lost $40,000 because of resale restrictions.

Thanks! I needed that affirmation. About to close on my first HGVC property through resale ... a little worried about the Diamond transition ... but you bring up a great point; changes to the program affect resale no matter how you acquired your initial interest and at the moment it's clearly better to buy resale.

So long as the options available to those not transitioning to HGV Max are somewhat equivalent to premerger, there's A LOT of room cost-benefit wise when you buy resale. At the end of the day, we have a deeded interest in an HGVC property which has some inherent value and I have to imagine HGVC has to weigh that against devaluing it too much (and having existing owners "revolt" ... aka. litigate). Probably overthinking it, but that's my rationalization for buying now with all this uncertainty ... that and the fact that maybe by being on the record now, any future changes won't apply to my resale purchase ...

 

[elaine]

No one knows if they'll actually prevent resale from using open season yet--or if Max Elite will get a slight jump on others at 9 months. It'll have to shake out. If you primarily plan to use your points at Tuscany or trade within HGVC network, you should be fine except for a very few extremely difficult bookings that Max Elite (of which I'd guess there'll be very few) can request prior to 9 months out and auto-book (a long thread on this). But for 99% of HGVC reservations, it shouldn't matter.