Pros and cons of converting from club Wyndham to Travel and Leisure?

[chapjim]

I’m not trying to be confrontational in my posts on this topic. I’m just trying to have a conversation and understand your thought process. I am on the Do Not Gift list because I refuse to participate in Wyndham’s game. And, if I weren’t on the list, I would just refuse to go. My mindset is that if I’m there and not challenging the sales staff on their lies, I’m complicit in Wyndham’s game. Of course, if I do speak up, they’re going to ask me to leave and if I do it a few times, they’d probably put me on the list anyway.

I’m married, so $150 gift card for both of us to attend for two hours would equal $37.50/hr. I use two hours because even if you only stay an hour, you still had to get ready and walk or ride to and from the meeting room. If you end up actually staying 1.5 or 2 hours, the hourly rate for your time is even less. For those with lower incomes, I completely understand that $150 can be a lot of money, but only if they can say no to the sales pitch. For those higher on the income ladder, I fail to see the justification. Just my two cents.

Ever hear of opportunity costs?

 

[Arimaas]

I’m not trying to be confrontational in my posts on this topic. I’m just trying to have a conversation and understand your thought process. I am on the Do Not Gift list because I refuse to participate in Wyndham’s game. And, if I weren’t on the list, I would just refuse to go. My mindset is that if I’m there and not challenging the sales staff on their lies, I’m complicit in Wyndham’s game. Of course, if I do speak up, they’re going to ask me to leave and if I do it a few times, they’d probably put me on the list anyway.

I’m married, so $150 gift card for both of us to attend for two hours would equal $37.50/hr. I use two hours because even if you only stay an hour, you still had to get ready and walk or ride to and from the meeting room. If you end up actually staying 1.5 or 2 hours, the hourly rate for your time is even less. For those with lower incomes, I completely understand that $150 can be a lot of money, but only if they can say no to the sales pitch. For those higher on the income ladder, I fail to see the justification. Just my two cents.

I don’t take this as confrontational - I take it as you intended, a conversation.

For me, I only go certain times. When I go with my family to Bonnet Creek, I don’t go. Not worth my time. This last time, I went to Skyline by myself. Weather was crud. It was literally an hour. Left my room about 3 minutes before the scheduled time. I won’t go with my wife (who isn’t on my contract and Wyndham doesn’t know exists), but this time I was solo anyway. $150 tax free for an hour and fifteen if you count travel time. And I drank four bottles of water.

I don’t get into it with the sales people. I am respectful. I don’t tell them they are lying to me. What I tell them is I’m a methodical person. I own resale. You know I’m not going to leave here buying something. I am an engineer by training. I’m going to take what you are telling me, go home, research it and sit back and watch with all these changes you are telling me. It can go one of three ways. If the changes don’t affect me, I obviously will do nothing. If the changes do effect me I can still do nothing and work the system within those new parameters, or I can acquire more contracts (whether resale or retail) to undo whatver those changes did or I can divest totally Becauee it doesn’t work for me. What I can assure you I won’t do is walk out of here buying something just because you are telling me changes are coming. That is not how I operate. That’s usually the end of it, because what are they going to say to that ?

You’re right, I am part of the problem. I am complacent in this whole scam. I am not being sarcastic. I take advantage of Wyndham just as they take advantage of others. But if they are going to offer it to me, and it works for me, I’m going to take it.

I’m going to NOLA by myself in February for four days. I can tell you no amount of money will make me go to a pitch while I’m there. Every minute of the vacation is worth too much to me in a city like NOLA. But for an hour in Atlantic City during a hurricane in the Caribbean? Sure. Like I said, covered the $30 parking, $25 Garden State Parkway tolls and then gas. First thing I did when I got home was pay my utility bill with their AmEx gift card.

 

[HitchHiker71]

See here. This is what I was referring to. This brief discussion about Wyndham corporate asking to report unethical sales practices and that they are "monitoring" to make sure sales people aren't taking advantage of the situation with closing facilities. Please. What a load of you know what.

Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

I do expect truth when someone is selling me something. I called the Marriott salesperson on her lies last August at Westin Princeville. She started telling me lies, and I told her it was not true. It's too bad some people fall for whatever lies the salespeople say.

tugbbs.com

I don't believe I said what you're attempting to ascribe here regarding Wyndham corporate not being accountable for the sales practices. I merely pointed out that the customer service teams within Wyndham, whom I am dealing with fairly regularly on this particular matter, are very much against what the sales organization is doing in this case, which is an accurate statement. However, as the old adage says, money talks and BS walks. Since the sales organization brings in the majority of revenues at T&L via VOI sales, they get a wide berth, and the Wyndham ELT utilizes cognitive dissonance and plausible deniability when it comes to the deceptive sales practices employed. Whenever suspect or illegal behavior is actually uncovered, via the third parties that are hired to have owners attend sales updates with a hidden microphone, or when an issue is actually reported to the local real estate authorities that results in any investigation, then action is taken, which is more of a token gesture on Wyndham's part more than anything. Every now and again salespeople are fired and made an example of, to keep the methods used in check on some level - but this is a bare minimum approach really.

As I've repeatedly indicated over time, the Wyndham ELT is fully complicit in the deceptive sales practices in reality. It is, however, completely rational and sensible to assume that the customer service divisions within Wyndham don't like having to clean up the messes caused by the sales and marketing team after the fact, which is why they are indeed monitoring Wyndham FB groups and taking reports of when these types of sales ploys are being used. This is simply a form of evidence gathering that the customer service teams can use against the sales and marketings teams to put in front of the ELT to attempt to control the narrative internally within Wyndham and to attempt to create fewer headaches that the customer service team is going to have to deal with down the line - which is exactly what I would do were I in their position. That in no way means that the customer service teams are going to be capable of preventing the sales and marketing teams from using this scenario to sell more product however - because again - money talks and BS walks.

Politics is alive and well inside all businesses - moreso in larger businesses like T&L. Divisions within companies compete for priority with the ELT and are always trying to one-up each other so to speak. This is especially the case between the customer service and sales divisions within Wyndham. The divisions have very different priorities, directives, etc., and are held accountable to those different directives/outcomes via KPIs. The customer service teams are tasked with CSAT type KPIs and delivering good customer services as measured by these KPIs. When the sales organization utilizes methods that result in unhappy customers - that directly and negatively impacts the CSAT KPIs on some level. These two divisions have opposing goals in some respects really, at least as long as the sales and marketing division continues to employ deceptive sales practices that result in all of the game playing that everyone is calling out on this thread. Perhaps someday the game playing will stop - but I don't see that day coming any time soon.

 

[Arimaas]

I don't believe I said what you're attempting to ascribe here regarding Wyndham corporate not being accountable for the sales practices. I merely pointed out that the customer service teams within Wyndham, whom I am dealing with fairly regularly on this particular matter, are very much against what the sales organization is doing in this case, which is an accurate statement. However, as the old adage says, money talks and BS walks. Since the sales organization brings in the majority of revenues at T&L via VOI sales, they get a wide berth, and the Wyndham ELT utilizes cognitive dissonance and plausible deniability when it comes to the deceptive sales practices employed. Whenever suspect or illegal behavior is actually uncovered, via the third parties that are hired to have owners attend sales updates with a hidden microphone, or when an issue is actually reported to the local real estate authorities that results in any investigation, then action is taken, which is more of a token gesture on Wyndham's part more than anything. Every now and again salespeople are fired and made an example of, to keep the methods used in check on some level - but this is a bare minimum approach really.

As I've repeatedly indicated over time, the Wyndham ELT is fully complicit in the deceptive sales practices in reality. It is, however, completely rational and sensible to assume that the customer service divisions within Wyndham don't like having to clean up the messes caused by the sales and marketing team after the fact, which is why they are indeed monitoring Wyndham FB groups and taking reports of when these types of sales ploys are being used. This is simply a form of evidence gathering that the customer service teams can use against the sales and marketings teams to put in front of the ELT to attempt to control the narrative internally within Wyndham and to attempt to create fewer headaches that the customer service team is going to have to deal with down the line - which is exactly what I would do were I in their position. That in no way means that the customer service teams are going to be capable of preventing the sales and marketing teams from using this scenario to sell more product however - because again - money talks and BS walks. Politics is alive and well inside all businesses - moreso in larger businesses like T&L. Divisions within companies compete for priority with the ELT and are always trying to one-up each other so to speak. This is especially the case between the customer service and sales divisions within Wyndham. The divisions have very different priorities, directives, etc., and are held accountable to those different directives/outcomes via KPIs.

I’m sorry, I don’t care who in Wyndham is against these sales practices. The practice continues unabated from the top levels and sales is using this series of events to try to sell. Someone up top thought to do this is it’s tickling down to multiple locations. That is my point.

I pointed out that there was a discussion that Wyndham (whether it’s the customer service team or someone from corporate office) is monitoring Facebook or others venues for lies, and that lies should be reported to Wyndham. Doesn’t matter. That is a useless token gesture. And don’t think for a second if the director of customer service approached his or her boss about this, they wouldn’t be fired for not being a team player, given some nonsense reassurances that they’ll look into it, or just flatly blown off. If customer service is so against it, where is the director standing up for his or her team to the higher levels? Obviously there’s tons we don’t know, but I’m not so quick to give anyone in that organization a pass. I know from reading the posts that you seem to have some sort of connection to the customer service side (I think you server on an HOA?). So your experience is much different than mine. But these are my thoughts.

Culture of Wyndham is to continue these practices, and they will only stop when a) it stops making them money or b) they are told to by a court.

Btw I have no idea what ETL stands for, but it shouldn’t impact my thoughts. And I also think, and this is all anecdotal, that Wyndham customer service is doing the bare minimum with respect to monitoring and reporting. They too are complicit in this entire industry. That being said, so am I. I’ll take the $150.

Love the product. Hate the industry. Feel sorry for the poor service folks at the resort who really wants to do a good job, but is just caught in the cross hairs.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I’m sorry, I don’t care who in Wyndham is against these sales practices. The practice continues unabated from the top levels and sales is using this series of events to try to sell. Someone up top thought to do this is it’s tickling down to multiple locations. That is my point.

Of course they did - this is to be expected. Money talks and BS walks, as I already indicated.

I pointed out that there was a discussion that Wyndham (whether it’s the customer service team or someone from corporate office) is monitoring Facebook or others venues for lies, and that lies should be reported to Wyndham. Doesn’t matter. That is a useless token gesture. And don’t think for a second if the director of customer service approached his or her boss about this, they wouldn’t be fired for not being a team player, given some nonsense reassurances that they’ll look into it, or just flatly blown off. If customer service is so against it, where is the director standing up for his or her team to the higher levels? Obviously there’s tons we don’t know, but I’m not so quick to give anyone in that organization a pass. I know from reading the posts that you seem to have some sort of connection to the customer service side (I think you server on an HOA?). So your experience is much different than mine. But these are my thoughts.

I'd hardly categorize a SVP, whom I typically deal with, as someone who would be blown off, as she is way above the Director level - she is part of the ELT (though not a CxO). I probably have 30 contacts that I deal with within Wyndham dependent upon the issue at hand. Some are individual contributors, others are ELT members, others sit in the mid-level management ranks somewhere in between, across a variety of divisions, departments, and teams. The person whom I'm dealing with the most on this particular item is responsible for all external messaging and comms at a director level - she is basically quarterbacking for us on the various items we bring up to her to get us answers when feasible.

Culture of Wyndham is to continue these practices, and they will only stop when a) it stops making them money or b) they are told to by a court.

That's what I said already in essence - many times over the years. We agree is my point.

Btw I have no idea what ETL stands for, but it shouldn’t impact my thoughts. And I also think, and this is all anecdotal, that Wyndham customer service is doing the bare minimum with respect to monitoring and reporting. They too are complicit in this entire industry. That being said, so am I. I’ll take the $150.

ELT = Executive Leadership Team - it's a very common acronym used in corporate America to describe the CxOs, division and department heads (President/EVP/SVP/VP) that run all publicly held organizations.

Love the product. Hate the industry. Feel sorry for the poor service folks at the resort who really wants to do a good job, but is just caught in the cross hairs.

Love the operations side of Wydham, dislike the sales and marketing side of Wyndham, always have, likely always will, so long as the deceptive sales practices are the norm. There are many good people at Wyndham trying to do good things, they just ultimately encounter resistance when attempting to do the right thing, as opposed to the expedient or profitable thing.

 

[Rolltydr]

I don’t take this as confrontational - I take it as you intended, a conversation.

For me, I only go certain times. When I go with my family to Bonnet Creek, I don’t go. Not worth my time. This last time, I went to Skyline by myself. Weather was crud. It was literally an hour. Left my room about 3 minutes before the scheduled time. I won’t go with my wife (who isn’t on my contract and Wyndham doesn’t know exists), but this time I was solo anyway. $150 tax free for an hour and fifteen if you count travel time. And I drank four bottles of water.

I don’t get into it with the sales people. I am respectful. I don’t tell them they are lying to me. What I tell them is I’m a methodical person. I own resale. You know I’m not going to leave here buying something. I am an engineer by training. I’m going to take what you are telling me, go home, research it and sit back and watch with all these changes you are telling me. It can go one of three ways. If the changes don’t affect me, I obviously will do nothing. If the changes do effect me I can still do nothing and work the system within those new parameters, or I can acquire more contracts (whether resale or retail) to undo whatver those changes did or I can divest totally Becauee it doesn’t work for me. What I can assure you I won’t do is walk out of here buying something just because you are telling me changes are coming. That is not how I operate. That’s usually the end of it, because what are they going to say to that ?

You’re right, I am part of the problem. I am complacent in this whole scam. I am not being sarcastic. I take advantage of Wyndham just as they take advantage of others. But if they are going to offer it to me, and it works for me, I’m going to take it.

I’m going to NOLA by myself in February for four days. I can tell you no amount of money will make me go to a pitch while I’m there. Every minute of the vacation is worth too much to me in a city like NOLA. But for an hour in Atlantic City during a hurricane in the Caribbean? Sure. Like I said, covered the $30 parking, $25 Garden State Parkway tolls and then gas. First thing I did when I got home was pay my utility bill with their AmEx gift card.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I disagree with your rationale but that's okay.

 

[Timeshare Von]

This thread has me wondering if using my "Limited Membership" given to me when I did the Wyndham Certified Exit of my 77k points at Myrtle Beach will "earn me" the opportunity to have private audience with the sales weasels on my next stay in March?

 

[Rolltydr]

Ever hear of opportunity costs?

Yes. In this case, the opportunity for me and DW to have a nice time enjoying breakfast or lunch, exploring a new location, visiting with friends or family, or just a nice quiet time in our room is worth much more to us than being forced to listen to an hour or two of high pressure sales lies. I'll give up $150 every day for that opportunity. What price would I put on it? I can't tell you that but I know Wyndham is never going to pay that much!

 

[tschwa2]

This thread has me wondering if using my "Limited Membership" given to me when I did the Wyndham Certified Exit of my 77k points at Myrtle Beach will "earn me" the opportunity to have private audience with the sales weasels on my next stay in March?

Once you have taken Limited Editions which required you to have exited all your points, you should not be eligible or asked to attend meetings.

 

[Timeshare Von]

Yes. In this case, the opportunity for me and DW to have a nice time enjoying breakfast or lunch, exploring a new location, visiting with friends or family, or just a nice quiet time in our room is worth much more to us than being forced to listen to an hour or two of high pressure sales lies. I'll give up $150 every day for that opportunity. What price would I put on it? I can't tell you that but I know Wyndham is never going to pay that much!

In the past, I've enjoyed taking the sales presentation . . . especially when my hubby was not required to attend. One time in Williamsburg, I accepted the appointment and was back before he was even out of bed. World record time of something around 30 minutes total. And yes, I received my gift (whatever they were offering . . . probably $200 AmEx gift card or similar). I was back to the timeshare in plenty of time for breakfast AND a great story.

 

[Rolltydr]

In the past, I've enjoyed taking the sales presentation . . . especially when my hubby was not required to attend. One time in Williamsburg, I accepted the appointment and was back before he was even out of bed. World record time of something around 30 minutes total. And yes, I received my gift (whatever they were offering . . . probably $200 AmEx gift card or similar). I was back to the timeshare in plenty of time for breakfast AND a great story.

And, in my experience, a rare story with only 30 minutes spent there. I probably still would have said no, but we obviously have different levels of tolerance. Congrats on that one!

 

[paxsarah]

Once you have taken Limited Editions which required you to have exited all your points, you should not be eligible or asked to attend meetings.

And in fact, unless something has changed it happens once you have given back a contract via Certified Exit at all. It doesn't require fully exiting or taking Limited Edition.

 

[Arimaas]

Yes. In this case, the opportunity for me and DW to have a nice time enjoying breakfast or lunch, exploring a new location, visiting with friends or family, or just a nice quiet time in our room is worth much more to us than being forced to listen to an hour or two of high pressure sales lies. I'll give up $150 every day for that opportunity. What price would I put on it? I can't tell you that but I know Wyndham is never going to pay that much!

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I disagree with your rationale but that's okay.

To each their own. I'm actually thankful for the opportunity when I take it. Like I said, it paid for all my expenses unrelated to points spent, and then some. I'll be honest, for $150 for an hour a day I'd go to these things every work day after work.

 

[Arimaas]

Of course they did - this is to be expected. Money talks and BS walks, as I already indicated.

I'd hardly categorize a SVP, whom I typically deal with, as someone who would be blown off, as she is way above the Director level - she is part of the ELT (though not a CxO). I probably have 30 contacts that I deal with within Wyndham dependent upon the issue at hand. Some are individual contributors, others are ELT members, others sit in the mid-level management ranks somewhere in between, across a variety of divisions, departments, and teams. The person whom I'm dealing with the most on this particular item is responsible for all external messaging and comms at a director level - she is basically quarterbacking for us on the various items we bring up to her to get us answers when feasible.

That's what I said already in essence - many times over the years. We agree is my point.

ELT = Executive Leadership Team - it's a very common acronym used in corporate America to describe the CxOs, division and department heads (President/EVP/SVP/VP) that run all publicly held organizations.

Love the operations side of Wydham, dislike the sales and marketing side of Wyndham, always have, likely always will, so long as the deceptive sales practices are the norm. There are many good people at Wyndham trying to do good things, they just ultimately encounter resistance when attempting to do the right thing, as opposed to the expedient or profitable thing.

Well I am glad your friend is trying to push back. I do however question how much she really pushes back and still works there but a) it doesn't really matter and b) we will never know.

 

[chapjim]

did you do that actually?

Did who do what?

 

[GT1]

I was checking in today at Bonnet Creek - not planning on attending the meeting but I have to get some wristbands so I have to steel myself to deal with the sales gatekeepers (aka vacation "concierges"). The guy immediately starts laying on the whole fearmongering tactic:

#1. Tells me I received an email from T & L stating my membership access on the website was in jeopardy
#2. Checks my account, shows I went to a sales presentation in September, but tells me I wasn't going to be given one here, I was just being given an opportunity to fix my website access
#3. If I didn't do the update, I was declining the updating of my membership and the website access would not be available. I told the guy I was on it yesterday and he said it's in January.
#4. Trying to be respectful, I told him that both he knew and I knew that what he was trying to tell me wasn't exactly correct. He says so it seems that I have some Wyndham trust issues!?!?
#5. I told him I wasn't signing anything or declining anything I just didn't want to talk to anyone at this time, he responds saying he doesn't understand why I don't want to save money
#6. I told him I just want my wristbands, he says so you're declining, I say no I just want my wristbands, he says so I have to write you're declining and corporate will call you tomorrow, no maybe I can have them call you this afternoon.
I'm losing my patience and I try to end this by saying that corporate better not call me and interrupt my vacation and I.just.want.my.wristbands!

The tactic to try to say "it's all in black and white, you are declining our very generous offer to extend the info to you, before your membership isn't going to work" is just nauseating. I'd like to have a printed, short, but detailed writeup I could read them explaining the Travel&Lesiure-isn't-Wyndham-Timeshare bait and switch spiel.

... anyways, now onto my vacation, geez.