Problems with Worldmark election

[PA-]

By the way, it might take more than a year for an independent board to have an impact on resale pricing. In fact, it may initially go lower.

If Wyndham loses control of the board, their first reaction might be to stop building and send out scare letters to owners, telling them that if they don't elect them back onto the board they will no longer continue their participation. Although that might actually be preferable to adding high credit properties, it could create an environment that reduces resale prices.

Of course, over the long haul, if Wyndham decides they HAVE to deal with an independent board, things will normalize and then get better. But it may take a while.

Wyndham is not in a position to walk away from Worldmark permanently. They paid $900million for Trendwest, they aren't likely to walk away from that investment. They continue to make megabucks in profit, they're going nowhere.

 

[PerryM]

Just my opinion of course, but I believe you've picked the one reseller guaranteed to give the most variable data (hence least reliable). Why? Because Jeff Fudge allows the owner to pick their own price, and he simply deducts his commission. So an owner that's unknowledgeable might take far less than they need to, or might price so high they don't get a sale.

A much more reliable barometer is average Ebay pricing, though that requires more work to monitor. A simple, yet more reliable measure than Jeff Fudge would be one of the resellers that has a set price (like redseasons).

This is a great example of all of us holding hands and working on solutions - thanks PA.

I'll stick with Jeff since I've watched his eMails for 3+ years and he does insist that owners use common sense with their pricing.

 

[PerryM]

By the way, it might take more than a year for an independent board to have an impact on resale pricing. In fact, it may initially go lower.

If Wyndham loses control of the board, their first reaction might be to stop building and send out scare letters to owners, telling them that if they don't elect them back onto the board they will no longer continue their participation. Although that might actually be preferable to adding high credit properties, it could create an environment that reduces resale prices.

Of course, over the long haul, if Wyndham decides they HAVE to deal with an independent board, things will normalize and then get better. But it may take a while.

Wyndham is not in a position to walk away from Worldmark permanently. They paid $900million for Trendwest, they aren't likely to walk away from that investment. They continue to make megabucks in profit, they're going nowhere.

I understand 100%.

 

[PA-]

...

It could result in Wyndham letting WorldMark languish like Equivest. Some would argue that that would be better for owners. Others would argue that it wouldn't.

Of course, Wyndham will threaten to do just that. Gene has made this threat to myself and others for year. They suggest that Wyndham would simply create Worldmark II and leave us alone. My response is FINE. Wyndham needs Worldmark much more than we need them. They paid $900 million for Trendwest. IF they start from scratch tomorrow, what are they going to do with the 5000+ they currently have on payroll? How are they going to sell with zero dots on the map? Would they realistically walk away from their customer list of 250,000 owners?

Or, after we call their bluff, would they roll up their sleeves and work in cooperation with the board?

 

[larry_WM]

I get eMails every day from many WM resellers -I'm going to pick one, Jeff Fudge, and keep all of them from now on. Then I'm going to run an average of the last 20 offers (Normalized with 6 cent rentals) and publish this statistic on WMowners.com

6 cents rental is not realistic. Look at ebay ( mostly 8 cents) and wmowners ads ( 7 cents and 8 cents). I have follow price from Jeff ( in general cheaper than other dealers I know) since 2000, I lost most of the data somewhere but according one of the spreadsheet I still have. The average price in 2000 is 76 cents ( 25 data points, normalized 0 credit available, o month anniversary, 7 cent rental), the everage price in 2002 is 71 cents ( 15 data points), the average of first 9 month 2007 is 67 cents ( 200 data points), the average of october is 62 cents. I saw some panic selling here.It's a good time to buy so I bought 2 more accounts, one at 50 cents and one at 55 cents

If the average resale goes up one year from now I will jump for joy, if the average goes down I'll ask for scalps.

Hopefully there won't be a lot of bickering about this since anyone can cook up their own measuring stick - mine is NOT subjective but measurable, verifiable, and can be duplicated.

We will then see if "WorldMark by owners for owners" is just a bumper sticker on a rusted out idea.

Simple...

It's true that the trend is down. I am not planning to sell them for another 10 years so I don't care much if the resale price go up or go down. If it goes down more I will buy more, it's harder to plan your vacation nowaday with small account. There are more and more educated owner in the game !

 

[PerryM]

6 cents rental is not realistic. Look at ebay ( mostly 8 cents) and wmowners ads ( 7 cents and 8 cents). I have follow price from Jeff ( in general cheaper than other dealers I know) since 2000, I lost most of the data somewhere but according one of the spreadsheet I still have. The average price in 2000 is 76 cents ( 25 data points, normalized 0 credit available, o month anniversary, 7 cent rental), the everage price in 2002 is 71 cents ( 15 data points), the average of first 9 month 2007 is 67 cents ( 200 data points), the average of october is 62 cents. I saw some panic selling here.It's a good time to buy so I bought 2 more accounts, one at 50 cents and one at 55 cents






It's true that the trend is down. I am not planning to sell them for another 10 years so I don't care much if the resale price go up or go down. If it goes down more I will buy more, it's harder to plan your vacation nowaday with small account. There are more and more educated owner in the game !

I’ve never rented any WM credits so I must go with a figure that others report.

However, no matter what price I pick from 5¢ to 10¢ owners say that the price is unreasonable and come up with another price.

I’ve used 6¢ for normalizing accounts for 4+ years now and that’s what I’ll use. Others can create their own measuring sticks.

The goal is to use a standardized method to come up with an average asking price for a WM credit BEFORE new board members are installed and then to use the same mythology 1 year from then and see the results.

Will Wyndham retaliate against WM owners? Will they cooperate and begin to fix things? Those two numbers calculated above will act as an excellent barometer of how WM owners feel – at least the ones wanting nothing more to do with WM.

Falling prices will indicate that things are not getting any better. Rising prices will reflect increased confidence in WM. Lets wait and see.

 

[drguy]

Just as a small indication of rental prices today, I've rented about 37,000 (36,925)credits in the past 3 months. All were for 5 cents/credit. Some have asked more and I've declined. I've had them come back and accept my offer. The asking price is the MOST someone will accept.
Guy

 

[LLW]

Just as a small indication of rental prices today, I've rented about 37,000 (36,925)credits in the past 3 months. All were for 5 cents/credit. Some have asked more and I've declined. I've had them come back and accept my offer. The asking price is the MOST someone will accept.
Guy

That is interesting. Guy, for the 37,000 credits, how many deals did you have to negotiate through and how many did you end up with? Did you have to pay first, pay dues to WM for them, or have the credits in your account before you paid? How long did it take for each deal from start to finish, on average?

 

[larry_WM]

Just as a small indication of rental prices today, I've rented about 37,000 (36,925)credits in the past 3 months. All were for 5 cents/credit. Some have asked more and I've declined. I've had them come back and accept my offer. The asking price is the MOST someone will accept.
Guy

Am I missing something? I tried to rent for 6 cents in vain. I guess to have a title Dr would get you a lot of discount. In this case who need to buy more credit when we can rent unlimited with 5 cents? Who need to join Travelshaft to have funtime for 7 cents when we can book 3 month in advance with just 5 cents?

 

[PerryM]

Renting WM credits is a free market - just like eBay. Everyday brings new and different deals.

Like I said, name a rental price and folks will tell you that you paid too much or that it was once in a million year deal...

 

[cruisin]

Most people get great rental rates from the trendwest owned forum. Since many owners only go to that site, and Trendwest does not allow information, or posting a price, it is very easy for a savvy owner to find people clueless as to the value of the credits they rent.

 

[drguy]

That is interesting. Guy, for the 37,000 credits, how many deals did you have to negotiate through and how many did you end up with? Did you have to pay first, pay dues to WM for them, or have the credits in your account before you paid? How long did it take for each deal from start to finish, on average?

I went through with 2 deals. Took 2 days each. I paid 1 with PayPal and another with a cashier's check. Both payments were made after the credits were in my account.
I probably asked a total of 6 or 7 people what they were asking and told them what I had paid. It works for some people and not others.
I read hints on wmowners.com and followed the advice. No tough negotiations at all. Everyone has a right to charge whatever amount they want for their credits, just as I have the right to choose how much I'll pay for them. If the people want more than I'm willing to pay, I simply respond thank, but no thanks.
Guy

 

[FLYNZ4]

Am I missing something? I tried to rent for 6 cents in vain. I guess to have a title Dr would get you a lot of discount. In this case who need to buy more credit when we can rent unlimited with 5 cents? Who need to join Travelshaft to have funtime for 7 cents when we can book 3 month in advance with just 5 cents?

Larry,

In general, I think that rental prices are rising slowly. I also think there will be a bump in prices if WYN discontinues FAX. It used to be easy to rent at $0.05... and obviously it is still possible as Guy points out. Still, I think that is below market. I would estimate the average price to be closer to $0.07 right now.

Funtime is $0.06, not $0.07, and it also includes a free HK

You are correct... currently, there is little reason to buy more credits because rentals are relatively cheap. There are some advantages of larger account such as the ability to book more weekend only reservations.

Personally, I do not think that TravelShare makes a lot of sense unless you already own 58K TS eligble credits.

/Jim

 

[larry_WM]

Larry,

In general, I think that rental prices are rising slowly. I also think there will be a bump in prices if WYN discontinues FAX. It used to be easy to rent at $0.05... and obviously it is still possible as Guy points out. Still, I think that is below market. I would estimate the average price to be closer to $0.07 right now.

Funtime is $0.06, not $0.07, and it also includes a free HK

You are correct... currently, there is little reason to buy more credits because rentals are relatively cheap. There are some advantages of larger account such as the ability to book more weekend only reservations.

Personally, I do not think that TravelShare makes a lot of sense unless you already own 58K TS eligble credits.

/Jim

Thanks, I think
Cheap rental credit will be over soon. There are more and more demand.
Why join TravelShare with buying another 5000 credit at developer price ( almost 10K), with 12K we can buy a NHK account at. Booking less than a week window is 12 wks, it will beat funtime of any tier. And the most important thing, you don't have to pay for TS fee.

 

[FLYNZ4]

Thanks, I think
Cheap rental credit will be over soon. There are more and more demand.
Why join TravelShare with buying another 5000 credit at developer price ( almost 10K), with 12K we can buy a NHK account at. Booking less than a week window is 12 wks, it will beat funtime of any tier. And the most important thing, you don't have to pay for TS fee.

The statement about partial week booking is orthoganal to the TS vs. non-TS decision. The same booking windows apply to TS and non-TS accounts... and HK or NHK accounts.

I agree that a true NHK account is much more valuable than a TS Platinum Elite account. If I had to give up either of mine... the TS account would be the first to go.

/Jim

 

[rallen]

Issues from other boards don't belong on TUG - thanks.