Prevent Bank Robberies - Remove your Hat

[Icarus]

I made that up? I spent enough time in law enforcement and dealt with enough criminals to tell you that is a fact. Telling me that I made it up was uncalled for as was most of your post.

You posted an uncited "statistic" and claimed it was a fact. Even that pdf file doesn't cite any statistics. It just says "it works", so I'm still skeptical about it.

But it's interesting to note that the guidelines in the pdf file say that nobody is refused service, even if they refuse to remove their hats and/or sunglasses.

Anybody can use statistics to prove or try to disprove something. That doesn't make it true.

And, no, I'm not going to believe you because you were involved in law enforcement, unless you actually funded and ran a study on this issue and published a paper subject to peer review that was done scientifically and proves it.

If something like that actually exists, I'll eat my proverbial hat, ok?

-David

 

[Phill12]

Do you honestly, really, truly believe that taking off a hat or sunglasses in a bank is going to save somebody's life, Phil?

I loved you story about how the police decided you were a threat because you left your car running and how they used racial profiling to harass a group of law abiding Mexicans.

What was the name of that town? Keystone?

-David

It is simple,if this removing the cap changes a bank robbers mind then it just might save someone's life. There is more chance of being caught if your on tape and no hat/cap helps to see the face.

As we all understand now days these low lifes don't think twice of shooting someone in many cases.

I never said they thought I was a threat because my car was running but that it was and still is a red flag and they checked me out because of it. I didn't get mad. I have never left car running at a bank since then.:hysterical:

I can not figure out where you come up with police harassing abiding Mexicans by profiling them first.

I stated that this car pulled up in front of bank and made a point to back in to parking when everyone else pulls in facing the bank. Second the driver stays in the car with it running while some of his buddies got out and went into the bank. This would be a red flag to most people and not profiling.

The police showed up with three cars because of this red flag and obviously three police cars didn't just drive up because "O-BOY WE HAVE A MEXICAN SITTING IN A RUNNING CAR IN FRONT OF A BANK".

I doubt the police new or cared what the race of driver was but more of just making sure the bank and customers were safe!

Someone from the bank or parking lot thought this looked strange and called or the bank security might have called,who know's!

After all this the bank was robbed by a Hispanic male that looked like one of these guys two days later.


PHIL

 

[Wonka]

Some how I'm not surprised you would think it is a ridiculous request!

I think I made it clear why the cops showed up and why years earlier I was question because my car was left running while I was doing banking.

Even if a car running is a red flag what would anyone think when a car pulls in front of the bank and backs in and all but the driver go into the bank while the driver sits in the car with engine running.

The police would have checked this out no matter who was driving and they have no way of knowing race when the drove in.

Seems your more interested in some kind of discrimination discussion than just pure safety or consideration for anyone else.


PHIL

As I'm not surprise with your response. Nobody is "right", or "wrong" in this discussion. There are valid arguments for both sides, which you choose to ignore. If you want to remove your hat, undergarments, or whatever to make the bank safer...be my guest. I just don't like a requirement from one, single branch bank that hasn't even had Corporate Approval? And GMarine, I do know it did not have Corporate approval...that puts the corporation at financial risk of a discrimination lawsuit.

In answer to another poster, yes it isn't discrimination if you ask everyone to remove their hat. But, what about those that wear hats for religious regions or perhaps other reasons? If you won't service them unless they remove their hat, that's clearly discrimination...plain and simple (IMHO). If it's simply a request, with the choice not to comply and still be served...I guess that's ok.

Last, here's a quote from your first post regarding the Hispanics:

"At a Wells Fargo Bank six months ago there was a car backed into the space in front of the bank and a Hispanic driver sitting there listening to the radio well his buddies were inside the bank. Wasn't five minutes and three police cars rolled in and checked him and his buddies out."

Unless the police would take the same action if these were a car full of cute female cheerleaders, that's clearly profiling (IMHO).

However, it's probably best for the courts to determine what is and isn't discrimation and profiling, Gmarine my guess is the definition of profiling includes at lot of the "etc" you haven't listed, other than skin color and religion. Ethnicity is just one biggie.

Am I more concerned about the discrimination & profiling issue, rather than safety. Yes. I don't think I'll feel much safer as a customer if another customer in line removes his hat. I'd be more concerned with the large purses women carry that could almost hold an AK-47, or if they want to take my picture prior to entering the bank, that'd be ok and probably more productive.

I commented this is a ridiculous policy...that isn't the same as calling someone else's opinion (mine) ridiculous, and don't appreciate that tone.

Objective feedback that can understand there can be differing opinions is more helpful.

I can understand how you might feel different, why can't you do the same without being insulting?

 

[Wonka]

In an oddball & semi-goofy way, this No Hat No & Stick-Up idea is so crazy that it just might make some sense.

Until recently (& maybe still at some) public high schools around here had prominent signs on the outsides of all the exterior doors saying: This Is A NO HAT Building. Please Remove Your Hat While You Are Inside. Hats Are Not Allowed To Be Worn Inside This Building (or words to that effect).

I don't think the No Hats rule has anything to do with the school administrator's fashion likes & dislikes.

Who knew ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Maybe Emily Post lives!!!

 

[Wonka]

I made that up? I spent enough time in law enforcement and dealt with enough criminals to tell you that is a fact. Telling me that I made it up was uncalled for as was most of your post.

Not being in law enforcement you wouldnt understand the reasoning so I will try to explain in a way you might understand.

Bank robbery suspects in general have a routine. Disrupting their routine in any way, however small, is a deterrent. A bank robber in general does not want to attract the attention of the entire bank. He wants one teller, the $$ and get out as quickly as possible. If a bank robber knows that wearing a hat may attract additional attention while in the bank the suspect may not choose that bank. And of course he doesnt want to be seen on camera. Some banks will also have an employee greeting customers at or near the entrance and ask at that time for them to remove their hat as well.

Here in NY there has been an increase in bank robberies over the past two years and this is one deterrent that has been used and recommended by law enforcement.

Here is one article. https://www.mobankers.com/uploadedF...Products_and_Services/Documents/NoHatsKit.pdf

Google something like "removing hat bank robbery deterrent" will show you more.

I'm aware that some State Bank Associations endorse this policy...that doesn't make it a valid deterrent. I'm sure, however, it does provide some minimal benefit. I am wondering how many bank holdups were prevented by this policy? How would anyone know? Do they poll the robbers that were foiled? Or, are they just assuming a drop in bank robberies after a certain period occurred after initiating such a policy?

I'm not convinced enough to comply (unless I have to). I'll just use my other bank that doesn't require this type of procedure.

I don't think it takes a degree in Criminal Justice, or law enforcement experience to understand this situation and recognize there must be studies supporting the policy. But, I'd question whether it's worth the effort. This is only one of the situations at the local Branch of Bank of America here in Florida. Another example, is they refuse to provide blank deposit slips at a counter in line. You have to wait until you meet with the teller and they hand you one. Go figure...maybe it's another technique to protect my identify or to prevent someone making a fraudulent deposit in my account. This situation was kinda the "straw that broke the camel's back for me".

I posted here because I thought it was interesting, and I might learn how many other banks are doing the same thing.

 

[gmarine]

You posted an uncited "statistic" and claimed it was a fact. Even that pdf file doesn't cite any statistics. It just says "it works", so I'm still skeptical about it.

But it's interesting to note that the guidelines in the pdf file say that nobody is refused service, even if they refuse to remove their hats and/or sunglasses.

Anybody can use statistics to prove or try to disprove something. That doesn't make it true.

And, no, I'm not going to believe you because you were involved in law enforcement, unless you actually funded and ran a study on this issue and published a paper subject to peer review that was done scientifically and proves it.

If something like that actually exists, I'll eat my proverbial hat, ok?

-David

The FBI recommends it as part of a deterrent program. But hey, I'll take your word for it that it doesnt work because you obviously have experience in the field.

 

[Icarus]

The FBI recommends it as part of a deterrent program. But hey, I'll take your word for it that it doesnt work because you obviously have experience in the field.

Let's just agree to disagree, ok?

I didn't say it doesn't work. I just haven't seen any real proof that it does.

Keep the nasty personal stuff out of it. It's just not necessary. I think we both made our points. And just because my opinion differs from yours, it doesn't mean I don't respect you, ok?

-David

 

[gmarine]

As I'm not surprise with your response. Nobody is "right", or "wrong" in this discussion. There are valid arguments for both sides, which you choose to ignore. If you want to remove your hat, undergarments, or whatever to make the bank safer...be my guest. I just don't like a requirement from one, single branch bank that hasn't even had Corporate Approval? And GMarine, I do know it did not have Corporate approval...that puts the corporation at financial risk of a discrimination lawsuit.

In answer to another poster, yes it isn't discrimination if you ask everyone to remove their hat. But, what about those that wear hats for religious regions or perhaps other reasons? If you won't service them unless they remove their hat, that's clearly discrimination...plain and simple (IMHO). If it's simply a request, with the choice not to comply and still be served...I guess that's ok.

Last, here's a quote from your first post regarding the Hispanics:

"At a Wells Fargo Bank six months ago there was a car backed into the space in front of the bank and a Hispanic driver sitting there listening to the radio well his buddies were inside the bank. Wasn't five minutes and three police cars rolled in and checked him and his buddies out."

Unless the police would take the same action if these were a car full of cute female cheerleaders, that's clearly profiling (IMHO).

However, it's probably best for the courts to determine what is and isn't discrimation and profiling, Gmarine my guess is the definition of profiling includes at lot of the "etc" you haven't listed, other than skin color and religion. Ethnicity is just one biggie.

Am I more concerned about the discrimination & profiling issue, rather than safety. Yes. I don't think I'll feel much safer as a customer if another customer in line removes his hat. I'd be more concerned with the large purses women carry that could almost hold an AK-47, or if they want to take my picture prior to entering the bank, that'd be ok and probably more productive.

I commented this is a ridiculous policy...that isn't the same as calling someone else's opinion (mine) ridiculous, and don't appreciate that tone.

Objective feedback that can understand there can be differing opinions is more helpful.

I can understand how you might feel different, why can't you do the same without being insulting?

Any private business can adopt a dress code as long as it doesnt discriminate against a protected class. The Federal guidelines mean race,ethnicity,religion,color,national origin,sex,age,disability and sexual orientation. Familial status also is a protected class in certain instances such as housing.

To add, unfortunately this is the world we live in. Every day we encounter deterrent for crime. Whether its surveillance cameras, security guards, law enforcement or retail store policy, they are everywhere. And most by themselves are only slight deterrents. But together with other methods some small deterrents can be very effective. But even a slight deterrent is worth a small inconvenience.

 

[Wonka]

Another opinion

The following is a brief writing by Bruce Schneir, of Counterpack Internet Security, and his bio. I guess technically, he's not in law enforcement so he shouldn't be considered "qualifed" to offer his opinion:

Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist and author. Described by The Economist as a "security guru," he is best known as a refreshingly candid and lucid security critic and commentator. When people want to know how security really works, they turn to Schneier.

His first bestseller, Applied Cryptography, explained how the arcane science of secret codes actually works, and was described by Wired as "the book the National Security Agency wanted never to be published." His book on computer and network security, Secrets and Lies, was called by Fortune "[a] jewel box of little surprises you can actually use." His current book, Beyond Fear, tackles the problems of security from the small to the large: personal safety, crime, corporate security, national security.

Regularly quoted in the media, he has testified on security before the United States Congress on several occasions and has written articles and op eds for many major publications, including The New York Times, The Guardian, Forbes, Wired, Nature, The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Boston Globe, The San Francisco Chronicle, and The Washington Post.


"Security Notes from All Over: Hats in Banks

A Birmingham, Alabama, bank is prohibiting its customers from wearing hats inside its branches. The idea is to improve security against bank robberies.

I guess the ideas is that a bank robber without a hat will show up better on security cameras. This makes a little bit of sense, until you start thinking about how it might work in practice.

Someone walks in with a hat. He walks up to a teller and announces a stick-up. Meanwhile, a security guard calls out: "Excuse me, sir. Can you remove your hat." I'll bet the teller will press her little "alarm" button a whole lot quicker than that.

Maybe a hat will tip off bank security quicker, enabling them to react in time. But what about bank robbers in ski masks? Didn't that already arouse suspicion? Why didn't that work? And if it didn't work for ski masks, why will it work for hats?

And the false alarm rate must be horrible. People walk into buildings wearing hats all the time. Almost none of them are bank robbers. How many times a day will security guards say "please remove your hat" before they become conditioned to the fact that no one wearing a hat is a bank robber?

Ski masks, presumably, have a much lower false alarm rate.

But let's assume, for the moment, that there is this breed of hatted criminal that can be foiled by a ban on hats. Why can't they dress up as "a nun, an Orthodox Jew, a Sikh in a turban or a burqa-clad Muslim woman"? Those groups are specifically exempted from the hat restriction.

All this aside, the rule has a little bit of security benefit. Some bank robbers might decide to rob a different bank because the hat rule is a bit too annoying. But bank robbers relying on speed are unlikely to care, and bank robbers relying on stealth are unlikely to care.

Security is always a trade-off: you have to balance the security you receive with what you give up in exchange. This rule is likely to annoy and inconvenience customers, while doing little to improve bank security. Hardly a good trade-off in the end.

And it certainly would never work where the winters are cold. Hats are not just fashion; sometimes they're survival gear. Ski masks, too."

 

[Icarus]

Good article. That guy said exactly what I think about it.

I think we're going to have to give it up Wonka.

Common sense doesn't matter here anymore. It also doesn't apply at airport security checkpoints either, and anywhere else where "security theater" is in effect.

-David

 

[Wonka]

Good article. That guy said exactly what I think about it.

I think we're going to have to give it up Wonka.

Common sense doesn't matter here anymore. It also doesn't apply at airport security checkpoints either, and anywhere else where "security theater" is in effect.

-David

Yep! We probably can't convince the Pope to become a Muslim either.

Opinions are just that...opinions. Meaning nobody's right, or wrong. There are truths in both.

 

[Phill12]

Had a bank robbed at gun point yesterday in Sacramento Ca.

He or She walked in with a ball cap pulled down so face wouldn't be filmed

And robbed the bank. Lucky no one was shot and killed!

PHIL

 

[AwayWeGo]

Hats On. Skirts Up.

Some jewelry store robberies have involved a female accomplice in long skirt who pulls up her hem up over her head, thereby concealing her face & exposing her this & that.

While everybody in the store stares, the robbers clean out the gold & gem cases before everybody rushes out.

When the cops show up, nobody is able to make an identification.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Wonka]

This guy disguised himself as a tree -

Duplicate...sorry.

 

[Wonka]

Ban Trees in the lobby

Had a bank robbed at gun point yesterday in Sacramento Ca.

He or She walked in with a ball cap pulled down so face wouldn't be filmed

And robbed the bank. Lucky no one was shot and killed!

PHIL

Monday, July 9, 2007
MANCHESTER, N.H. -- A Manchester man was arraigned on robbery charges Monday after police said he disguised himself as a tree to rob a bank over the weekend

James Coldwell, 49, was arraigned on one count of robbery. Police said that he robbed a Citizen's Bank branch Saturday morning and duct-taped tree branches to his head and body in an effort to disguise himself.