Possible Starwood Listing of Starwood’s Voluntary Resorts

[DavidnRobin]

Here in this thread TUG thread there is a lot of confusion about WKORV-N and if it is voluntary or mandatory. But, in this thread the OP says it will be mandatory.

The thing that makes me crazy about Starwood is that we (some of the best informed timeshare owners) can't find a solid answer to this question. WHY IS THAT?

I even asked a SVN saleman directly this question (month ago while at WKORV) - he said M, but he said that all resorts being built are M - and we know this is not true for WPORV - but WKORV-N is M.

No wonder many owners are so misinformed - SVO/SVN misdirects, but I believe they are misguided.

 

[nodge]

Vistana Villages – Amelia Phase

Starwood has recently updated the StarOptions chart on mystarcentral.com to include the “Amelia” phase of Vistana Villages (Thanks for letting us know Blujahz). It shows a 3 bedroom during peak season in the “Amelia” phase being worth 125,000 StarOptions, while a 3 bedroom in the “Key West” phase being worth 139,700 StarOptions. (Smaller sized units between the phases have the same StarOptions, only the 3 bedroom units have differing StarOptions).

Soooooo fellow consumers, it would appear that not only is the “Amelia” phase a voluntary resort, 3 bedroom units in the “Amelia” phase are also worth fewer StarOptions than their sister 3 bedroom mandatory resort units in the “Key West” phase at the same resort.

Assuming Starwood is still selling 3 bedroom units in both phases, does anyone know if Starwood is discounting the developer pricing on 3 bedroom units in the “Amelia” phase accordingly, or is it just hiding the ball on this issue with its customers?

Then again, maybe there are structural differences between the phases, like the 3 bedroom in the Key West phase is really a 2 bedroom with a connecting 1 bedroom unit, while the Amelia phase units are true 3 bedroom units. Any thoughts?

-Nodge

 

[DavidnRobin]

Starwood has recently updated the StarOptions chart on mystarcentral.com to include the “Amelia” phase of Vistana Villages (Thanks for letting us know Blujahz). It shows a 3 bedroom during peak season in the “Amelia” phase being worth 125,000 StarOptions, while a 3 bedroom in the “Key West” phase being worth 139,700 StarOptions. (Smaller sized units between the phases have the same StarOptions, only the 3 bedroom units have differing StarOptions).

Soooooo fellow consumers, it would appear that not only is the “Amelia” phase a voluntary resort, 3 bedroom units in the “Amelia” phase are also worth fewer StarOptions than their sister 3 bedroom mandatory resort units in the “Key West” phase at the same resort.

Assuming Starwood is still selling 3 bedroom units in both phases, does anyone know if Starwood is discounting the developer pricing on 3 bedroom units in the “Amelia” phase accordingly, or is it just hiding the ball on this issue with its customers?

Then again, maybe there are structural differences between the phases, like the 3 bedroom in the Key West phase is really a 2 bedroom with a connecting 1 bedroom unit, while the Amelia phase units are true 3 bedroom units. Any thoughts?

-Nodge

Why do you say the Amelia phase is Voluntary? Is there documantation that states that SVN privledges are not transferred upon resale to the buyer? The new phase at WSJ has different SO allotments and even different seasons.

Anybody out there bought the new Amelia VV or BayView WSJ phases?

 

[tomandrobin]

Why do you say the Amelia phase is Voluntary? Is there documantation that states that SVN privledges are not transferred upon resale to the buyer?

The first post by the OP lists Amelia as a voluntary resort.

 

[nodge]

Why do you say the Amelia phase is Voluntary?

Available data "suggests" that Amelia Phase is voluntary, but then again, the data suggesting it is rather limited:

1. See the first post in this thread. Amelia phase is listed in the file name of a Starwood document containing familiar "voluntary" resort limitations, while known mandatory resorts (Kierland, WKORV) are omitted from that file name.

2. Duke's sleuthing found a document that lists "Key West" and "Bella" phases of Vistana Villages as being members of the mandatory "club," but "Amelia" phase is NOT listed, even though the document Duke found was updated on 11-17-06, well after "Amelia" phase units began sales. See post #29 of this thread:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38235&page=2

3. A potential developer purchaser of new Vistana Villages units (with Amelia being the newest phase) was told by her salesman that Vistana Villages is a voluntary resort. See post #1 of this thread:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35337

Sure this data is flimsy, but until someone who purchased Amelia VV looks at their paperwork and reports what they find (or Starwood steps up to the plate and officially publishes this info somewhere), it's all we've got.

-Nodge

 

[DavidnRobin]

The first post by the OP lists Amelia as a voluntary resort.

Oops - maybe should read the first post of a thread - actually I did before, but I was also going off of the other thread.

Nodge - yes - looks as if Amelia is V, but until someone produces an OM - I will take that with about 90% confidence. Thanks for the update - there goes my whole mystery 'Club' and SVN Mandatory theory.

 

[Stefa]

So what about the Palm Beach section of VV? Is this M or V? In the StarOptions chart that was posted here awhile back it was listed with Bella.

 

[DavidnRobin]

I just noticed from the 1st post that Westin St John Bay Vista units are Voluntary. If correct, I wonder if that will have impact on the WSJ Virgin Grand (Hillside) units that are Mandatory.

Any WSJ BV Owners out there? I wonder if any have come upon TUG?

Anybody have a WSJ Owners Manual for either VG or BV?

I checked for the WSJ VG Owners Manual on MyStarCentral - and nothing really was listed (except for a few docs). Who does one contact to get a Owners Manual?

 

[duke]

Available data "suggests" that Amelia Phase is voluntary, but then again, the data suggesting it is rather limited:

2. Duke's sleuthing found a document that lists "Key West" and "Bella" phases of Vistana Villages as being members of the mandatory "club," but "Amelia" phase is NOT listed, even though the document Duke found was updated on 11-17-06, well after "Amelia" phase units began sales. See post #29 of this thread:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38235&page=2

-Nodge

Excellent analysis Nodge!

The quotes I listed are directly from the Purchase Documents and Calif Dept of Real Estate filings for VV-Key West. They do NOT list Amelia as being part of the CLUB. The locations listed for VV were Bela and Key West which we know are Mandatory. The other SVO locations that were listed as being part of the club we also know are Mandatory (harborside, St John). So, assume those not listed are Voluntary.

Regarding the 3 br SO's from the new SO listing that blujahz found.........I was also surprised at the difference in SO's, so I looked again at the Purchase Docs and Calif Dept of RE filing. They clearly state that the 3 br is made up of a 1 br and a 2 BR - HOWEVER, the 2br on one location is a lock off and the other location is a regular 2br. --> If you then add up the SO's for a 2br L/O and a 1br THEN compare to a 2br (not l/o) and a 1br you will see that the number of SO's for the 3 br's, at each resort, add up. How 'bout that?

Duke

 

[Richard D]

All I can say is "Wow". How is the average buyer of a time share supposed to know all of the information needed to make an intelligent decision?
I own two lock-offs at Vistana Villages and I just got off the phone with them after reading the threads about voluntary and mandatory ownership. According to the customer service rep "Key West" and "Bella" phases of Vistana Villages are members of the mandatory "club," but "Amelia" phase is not. However, something I didn't see in any of the postings is if the owner wills the deed to his children all privileges continue. Sound right?

 

[tomandrobin]

All I can say is "Wow". How is the average buyer of a time share supposed to know all of the information needed to make an intelligent decision?
I own two lock-offs at Vistana Villages and I just got off the phone with them after reading the threads about voluntary and mandatory ownership. According to the customer service rep "Key West" and "Bella" phases of Vistana Villages are members of the mandatory "club," but "Amelia" phase is not. However, something I didn't see in any of the postings is if the owner wills the deed to his children all privileges continue. Sound right?

If its a mandoatory resort, yes. Can't answer if its a Developer purchased mandatory purchase and is willed to a spouse after death.

 

[nodge]

However, something I didn't see in any of the postings is if the owner wills the deed to his children all privileges continue. Sound right?

Hi Richard D,

The short answer is: Probably

Your original purchase documents will tell you for sure (. . .maybe).

Here is what my Westin Kierland Docs say on the subject:

STARPOINT (SPG hotel point) BENEFITS

“Starpoints Disclosure Statement – Non-Florida Projects” (VR!DA151 (Rev. 2-28-06))

General Terms and Conditions – Paragraph 1

“… With respect to the Resort, only Owners of Vacation Ownership Interests in the Resort who acquire their Vacation Ownership Interest directly from the Seller of the Resort or from resales brokered by an authorized resale company, a subsidiary or affiliated company of such seller, or transferees of such Owners by will or intestate succession, or present or future children of such Owners who have otherwise succeeded to their parents’ interest (collectively, “Eligible Owners”) are eligible to participate in the Starpoints Conversion Program.”

SVN ELITE BENEFITS

“Starwood Vacation Network Elite Level Enrollment Form” (VO!DA045 (Rev. 7-11-05))

Paragraph 6

“I understand that only authorized SVN Resorts may offer or enroll SVN Members into SVN Elite. SVO Interests purchased through an unauthorized third party broker or on the resale market do not qualify for SVN Elite Membership. I understand that my SVN Elite Membership and related benefits are not transferable.”

STAROPTION (Internal SVN trading currency) BENEFITS

Since the Westin Kierland is a mandatory resort (meaning all StarOptions transfer to the new owner, even a resale purchaser), the issue of what happens to the StarOptions when transferring ownership to a child is moot for Kierland and other mandatory resorts like Vistana Villages Bella and Key West Phases. The StarOptions transfer.

This issue is still up in the air for volunatary resorts like Vistana Villages Amelia Phase.

These documents suggest that I can transfer the SPG (hotel points) benefits to my children, but I can’t transfer my elite status to them (unless of course one interprets the SVN elite paperwork to conclude that I’m not actually “transferring” my interests to them, because my children are already “eligible owners” as defined by the “General Terms and Conditions” of the “Starpoints Disclosure Statement.") (Thanks SVN for making everything so clear )

Regarding VV Amelia Phase, it has now been further confirmed 1) that it is indeed a voluntary resort (See Post # 1 of this link); and 2) SVN salesfolks don't go out of their way to let potential customers know this and the fact that mandatory VV Key West Phase units are still available for about the same price (See Post #12 of this link).

FYI,
-Nodge

 

[RoverJohn]

As somebody who just purchased Vistana Villages Amelia stage and thought that it was a mandatory resort, I am now considering rescission. A major impetus for my decision was to retro a unit I already owned that is not in the SVN system, Desert Oasis. I still have a few days to decide whether to go forward or back out, but I believe that purchasing a voluntary unit is potential money lost at resale. I have a call into the salesperson and manager - they better have a good answer - assurance that any future buyer of my unit has written permission to be accepted into SVN and receive Options and use points. A problem will be this – I received a return of my money used on an Explorer Vacation to lower the price and this will probably be lost. Any ideas on how I should proceed?

John

 

[nodge]

New SVN Salesperson Spin

A potential Starwood purchaser has been private messaging me for help as they are pursuing their developer purchase in order to requalify a prior SVN resale property. I’ll encourage this person give us all the juicy details themselves after the dust settles, but this person reports that at least three different SVN salesfolks have made the following argument in response to the Voluntary vs. Mandatory resort issue.

Basically, these salesfolks are saying “go ahead and buy the voluntary resort because any potential resale purchaser can always get their resale unit back into SVN simply by paying a $599 fee (or the current SVN enrollment fee at the time of the re-enrollment attempt.) Making our new resorts voluntary means that you and any future purchasers of your property don’t HAVE to join SVN, but of course you and any future purchasers of your property can always VOLUNTARILY join SVN if they want so long as you/they pay the nominal SVN enrollment fee.”

If true (and I doubt it is), the salesfolks argue that buying a voluntary resort is better than buying a mandatory resort because ALL SVN benefits transfer (StarPoints, Elite Status Qualification, StarOptions) to resale purchasers of the voluntary resort (upon re-enrollment and payment of the fee) vs. only the StarOptions transferring to resale purchasers of a mandatory resort.

With respect to resale purchasers, this is contrary to everything I have ever read in any document that I have ever received relating to my voluntary resort (Sheraton Desert Oasis). (In response to this, the salesfolks told this potential customer that the resale purchaser being able to buy their way back into SVN only applies to the new voluntary resorts (VV Amelia, Princeville, etc.). Accordingly, does anyone have any paperwork from one of the new voluntary resorts (VV Amelia Phase, Princeville – Duke: didn’t you buy at Princeville?, etc.) that can confirm or (as I suspect) kill these salesfolks’ new spin on this issue?

Thanks in advance.

-nodge

 

[myip]

I won't trust what the salesperson say unless it is written in the sales contract. I learned my lesson.:annoyed:

 

[Henry M.]

I was told the same story a couple of years ago at Westin Mission Hills. I wasn't really interested in the areas where there were voluntary resorts and it was only a part of a conversation (i.e. it wasn't an issue that I was needed to be swayed on one way or the other). It was mentioned in passing rather matter-of-fact. I have never pursued it with Portfolio Services but if I owned a voluntary resort I'd call (look under Contacts in MyStarCentral.com) and ask, saying I have a voluntary resort and would now like to buy back in as I was told I could.

I'm not saying you should believe the salesperson! Don't buy anything if you can't get the details in writing. However, if you already own a voluntary resort it might be worth a call. It could be that something like SDO, that wasn't originally a Starwood property, is not elegible but something like WMH is.

 

[nodge]

SVN Salesperson Spin - Update

When pressed to produce paperwork, the SVN Saleperson pointed out the following language in the "Statement of Amelia Resort Condominium" paperwork (dated 10/9/06) to this potential purchaser:

“Your membership in SVN cannot be transferred to your resale buyer. Membership in SVN may not be available to your resale buyer or may be available for a fee as determined from time to time by SVEC.”

So, whether resale buyers of the new voluntary resorts can just buy their way back into SVN is completely at the discretion of SVN. This doesn't appear to be any different than what current voluntary resort owners have now. They're all just waiting for that "time to time" period that may never come, and is certainly under no legal obligation to ever come.

Beware of this new sales spin.

-nodge

 

[duke]

Duke: didn’t you buy at Princeville?, etc.) that can confirm or (as I suspect) kill these salesfolks’ new spin on this issue?

Thanks in advance.

-nodge

Nodge:

It still amazes me that people don't read the posts.

The policy is the policy.

I still have not read of anyone actually requalifing a resale except as I have ACTUALLY posted the ACTUAL results of my experience.

Come on, read the sticky.

Duke

 

[Henry M.]

In this other thread someone was told they could buy into SVN, and was even told he'd get the paperwork. In the end he was finally told it was not possible. An actual experience to confirm what others are saying here.

 

[nodge]

Come on, read the sticky.

Hi Duke,

I just didn't think 3 different salespeople from two different SVN resort's sales groups would say the exact same lie without having at least some foundation for it, but I was wrong. They ALL lie very effectively.

-Nodge

PS. I posted my requal details in your sticky too.

 

[duke]

Hi Duke,

I just didn't think 3 different salespeople from two different SVN resort's sales groups would say the exact same lie without having at least some foundation for it, but I was wrong. They ALL lie very effectively.
-Nodge
.

From my experience, I don't think they are lying. I just think they are trying to be helpful but don't have all the facts. Requalifing is a complicated process. It is not what SVO does as a regular course of business.

In each case I have had to walk the salespersons and the salesmanagers through the process. Based upon this, I strongly recommend that anyone here who wants to requalify a resale not call and ask SVO salespersons if it can be done. They should demand it as a condition of purchase and follow the steps in the sticky.

Duke