Pahio -- sales presentation on Tuesday 5/8

[pattic777]

We're at the Shearwater, and, as ouaifer indicated back in January, the concierge convinced us that a sales presentation is where we can hear about the "Wyndham way" or what they have to offer. I am hoping that they are not going to just try to sell us more time at Bali Hai because we have no need for that. I unfortunately have not been taking advantage of TUG over the last few months and have been reading up on Wyndham and PAHIO just in the past few days.

I have a few questions on my piece of paper that I want to ask them about. Anyone have other questions to which I should try to acquire answers?

1. Can points ownership be transferred? (we own RCI points at Ka'Eo Kai and Makai Club Cottages) Restrictions as to whom? (relative versus another person)
2. Is there a ROFR on our ownership? (all of ours were bought many years ago)
3. What does it mean that Wyndham bought PAHIO? Who got money and for what?
   
   It seems to me that there are several pieces that could have been "bought":
   

   • unsold units (from David Walters?)
   • management (front desk, housekeeping, grounds)
   • sales and marketing
   • concierge services

   What was bought? How am I, as an owner, supposed to find out about this?​
4. Are my Ka'Eo Kai and Makai Club Cottage and Shearwater weeks now to become Fairfield? I don't know a lot about Fairfield -- my experience here on TUG has made me glad I didn't have to understand Fairfield -- if now I do, I'm not going to be a happy camper...
5. Based on the fact that I am sure they are going to try to sell me something, "What will what you want me to buy give me that I don't already have?" We own 3 weeks EOY at Shearwater (weeks ownership) which we book 14 months in advance and use in unit 209; our Ka'Eo Kai and Makai Club Cottages are in RCI points which we use to get airfare or to stay at other places in even years. We are happy with what we have.
6. I detect changes in the personnel that don't make me happy. The concierge went out of her way to say "being bought by Wyndham is GREAT" but with no explanation, which raises my curiousity about why she needed to say that. She also was careful to explain that the Owner's Coffee was only to hear about updates/maintenance on the property, not to ask about the Wyndham changes. There are two people at the Shearwater clubhouse - one to do activities (Expedia?) and the other for resort help - but neither is "allowed" to do the other's job (though they both, pre-Wyndham, did both jobs) - why? These just are "feelings", not anything definite, but make me a little cautious.
   

Are there other questions I should ask? I've got a couple of weeks here on property to try to find answers.

Patti

p.s. both the Ka'Eo Kai and Shearwater board meetings happen to occur while we are here -- so I may be able to hear/ask things there as well.

 

[Lee B]

Before Wyndham, PAHIO owners with RCI Points memberships were not able to pass along the RCI points privileges to the next owner, whether your relative or buyer. So ask whether that has changed.

I expect that an interval owner must volunteer (or pay, probably) to change this original ownership type to anything different. So you always will have a deeded fee simple interval ownership (recorded in county records) unless you give that up. They may threaten you with diminished value if you don't fork over money to enhance your status with platinum, titanium or uranium membership in some Fairfield or WorldMark thing that will put money into seller pockets and Wyndham coffers. Direct ownership in the resort is certainly the best assurance of being able to get back in there. If you do want wider destination choices, then FF or WM membership may be good.

The reason one kind of seller can't talk about the other one's product is that getting something wrong could lose a sale or unintentionally run afoul of a consumer protection law. It could also let you have too long to think something over before signing a committment.

Whenever you chat with another visitor, ask what is up. Maybe this person already heard a presentation. You can learn something and maybe encourage a recision before it's too late.

Please report back!

Lee

PS: Sorry, maybe I could have answered more questions. Wyndham bought the PAHIO business, which included the resort management contracts and the unsold intervals. Wyndham personnel [I originally wrote PAHIO] will stand for the various owner association board vacancies and likely will win because of high ownership or no opposition.

I don't think they can invoke ROFR if it was not in your original purchase documentation, although they may try it.

The workers there were ordered to tell owners that the change is "great" because if they say anything else they will be fired, if employees, or sent away if contractors (e.g. concierge). It really may be great, but the first directive is not to trouble the owners and guests with pesky information. It could get real amusing to ask for specifics of "great," though they probably will clam up, as you observed. They just don't know what to say to that, so will say go to the presentation for all of the good news.

L

 

[california-bighorn]

Patti
First I envy you for being in Hawaii. We are owners at Kauai Beach Villas and have been trying to find out the status of building a new pool complex at KBV. If you think about it, would you please ask what's the status on the plans for a new pool and if they will give any indication of the size, etc. of the pool area.
Thanks much, Marty

 

[pattic777]

I thought I would report back on the answers we got.

• Can points ownership be transferred? (we own RCI points at Ka'Eo Kai and Makai Club Cottages) Restrictions as to whom? (relative versus another person)

• RCI points are not except possibly in a family for a $250 fee (willing them)

• Is there a ROFR on our ownership? (all of ours were bought many years ago)

• Our sales agent called someone more knowledgeable over -- he said, emphatically, that there is no ROFR and it may have been something David Walters did, but is not done now. (He got a wee bit testy.)

• What does it mean that Wyndham bought PAHIO? Who got money and for what?
  
  It seems to me that there are several pieces that could have been "bought":
  

  • unsold units (from David Walters?)
  • management (front desk, housekeeping, grounds)
  • sales and marketing
  • concierge services

  What was bought? How am I, as an owner, supposed to find out about this?​

• Marketing and sales, management company, right to new inventory
• He also said that they could send out more information but that would be a cost incurred by my maintenance fees. I told him that the fact that no communication has been done means there is a lot of miscommunication going on (he told me not to believe things on timeshare user groups) -- I said that if we were getting any other communication, maybe I wouldn't feel the need to get my information from a non-associated group.

• Are my Ka'Eo Kai and Makai Club Cottage and Shearwater weeks now to become Fairfield? I don't know a lot about Fairfield -- my experience here on TUG has made me glad I didn't have to understand Fairfield -- if now I do, I'm not going to be a happy camper...

• no, my existing weeks do not go to Fairfield unless I buy in.

• Based on the fact that I am sure they are going to try to sell me something, "What will what you want me to buy give me that I don't already have?" We own 3 weeks EOY at Shearwater (weeks ownership) which we book 14 months in advance and use in unit 209; our Ka'Eo Kai and Makai Club Cottages are in RCI points which we use to get airfare or to stay at other places in even years. We are happy with what we have.

• Short answer: nothing for me.

• I detect changes in the personnel that don't make me happy. The concierge went out of her way to say "being bought by Wyndham is GREAT" but with no explanation, which raises my curiousity about why she needed to say that. She also was careful to explain that the Owner's Coffee was only to hear about updates/maintenance on the property, not to ask about the Wyndham changes. There are two people at the Shearwater clubhouse - one to do activities (Expedia?) and the other for resort help - but neither is "allowed" to do the other's job (though they both, pre-Wyndham, did both jobs) - why? These just are "feelings", not anything definite, but make me a little cautious.

• This was really the only thing that I felt like the guy took me seriously on (cuz he could go pound on someone else). Said this should not be happening.

I also asked about the pool at KBV -- the recommendation was to contact Lani Cowie who is the Resort Manager at KBV.

We went to the Owner's Coffee today; not a happy crowd -- not particularly because they are upset about anything other than lack of communication (or that was my opinion). I told the folks in the sales appointment yesterday that when humans are not communicated with, they assume the worst; the worst may be true, but it would be better to communicate than to say nothing. The new operations manager for Princeville indicated that they hope to send out a newsletter in a couple of months and to ask for people to provide their email addresses so communication can go out more frequently for a cheaper price.

Gotta go -- the Ka'Eo Kai board meeting is this afternoon -- will see what is said there.

Patti

 

[ajsmithtx]

Patty

Thanks for the info. We will be leaving for Hawaii in 40 days.

I don't like the change in "management", and the lack of communication, but after reading the various comments form folks like yourself, it seems to me that we "owners" will be maintaining our status quo. I don't think there will be any "good deals" unless an owner is willing to dig into their pocket. It is obvious that some of the deals/events that previous were held at Pahio have been deleted as cost cutting measures. Either David Walters paid for the events himself or Pahio found a way to provide events to owners/exchangers and pay for them out of the budget.

Now a bigger company has bought out Pahio management and is looking at the bottom line, is also looking to use The Shearwater, KEK, KBVs, and Makai Cottages as a way to entice their FF/Wyndham owners to Kauai, and of course buy TSs.

I think if we remain calm, and are able to keep eyes open we as owners will be okay.

 

[pattic777]

Actually, things like the welcoming leis and the mai-tai party (with alcohol) were supplied by sales and marketing in the past. The resort operations manager, Fred Mayo, indicated that they will be coming back - again through sales and marketing. There is an issue that Wyndham is an alcohol free corporation (which I personnally think is a good thing!), but he said that they are hoping to provide mai-tais through some contribution technique. Members of the staff plan to provide a main dish that they will cook (to provide local flavor). (He also indicated that the #1 dissatisfier of the owners since he has been here (December 2006) was the loss of welcoming leis and mai-tais at the pot luck party -- #2 was increases in maintenance fees with an accompanying concern that there were maintenance concerns.)

The board meeting had the area director and regional director from Wyndham there. The area director is from Phoenix, and spoke for a while during the meeting. I have to admit I am more favorably impressed with Wyndham now than I have been since I first heard about PAHIO selling out. I can't give you specifics that make me feel better -- a couple of small things that I noted were that we will get some "economies of scale" (my term, not his) in having access to computer systems to be used by the operations staff that we may not have had in the past. Things like satisfaction tracking, inventory tracking, standard operating procedures. I can't express why I feel better now, but honestly, I do.

Something that bothers me -- I helped with the vote counting at the meeting -- only 19% of the owners return proxies. There are a lot of people who just don't care. By the way -- it was the same percentage last year, so not a difference due to Wyndham purchase. Maybe this is consistent with the timeshare industry because only 10% is required to make a quorum.

Patti

 

[LisaH]

Patti,

Thanks for the report. One thing I find interesting (and depressing) was from a letter sent from the current Shearwater Board a month or so ago that the only one running for Board election is David Walters. How could that be? I just became an owner early this year so I didn't have an opportunity to volunteer myself. Are Shearwater owners really that content and indifferent about what's going on and what should be done at our resort? Or was it due the the lack of communications between the Board/resort and owners? I hope I misunderstood the letter...

 

[Mary W]

Thanks, Patti, for all of the information. We own several weeks at Shearwater, so we, too, are concerned about what the Wyndham purchase means for us and other owners. We will be at Shearwater in June and will see what additional information we can get to share with other TUG members.

Lisa, we also have been concerned for several years about the "rubber stamp" nature of the Shearwater board. We would love to see the Board solicit the opinions and recommendations of owners and communicate with us more than once a year. Sharing information via email or an up to date website is doable and is certainly less expensive than sending out mass mailings.

I hope other owners will consider running for the Board in the future. My husband actually ran for the Board several years ago; it turned out he was vying for a seat against David Walters and he didn't win. I think most owners vote for the person whose name they recognize and are leary about voting for someone they don't know. David Walters had the vision to develop Shearwater; the Board would be strengthened by the addition of new voices. It would be terrific if there were a large number of owners on the ballot next year!

 

[Bill4728]

I have a question.

Before Wyndham, didn't pahio have an internal exchange policy? If so, what was it and what has happened to that?

 

[ouaifer]

I have a question.

Before Wyndham, didn't pahio have an internal exchange policy? If so, what was it and what has happened to that?

Their internal exchange policy...if you would like to call it that, was handled through RCI. There is/was a special phone number to call RCI and deposit/request. Apparently Pahio owners were given priority for internal Pahio exchanges.

 

[rickandcindy23]

We had the ability to book all PAHIO properties with our weeks before others, so they deposit about 11 months out into RCI and the availability is there. It has worked well for us. I don't know if that has changed or not. I would hope that would continue, otherwise the value of our weeks has suffered considerably. At least the value to us has suffered, as we did use the priority in the past.

 

[pattic777]

We will be at Shearwater in June...

If you happen to be on Kauai the week of the Makai Club meeting, you may want to go to it and report back! I know I would be interested.

BTW, Shearwater meeting is Monday and I'll be going to it as well and will report back if I hear anything additional.

Sharing information via email or an up to date website is doable and is certainly less expensive than sending out mass mailings.

I agree -- but I now see the problem with this: if only 19% return their proxies, how are they going to get enough email addresses and people who agree to get their information that way?

I think most owners vote for the person whose name they recognize and are leary about voting for someone they don't know.

I agree with this as well -- it is unfortunate, because after sitting in the meeting yesterday and hearing the different people talk, I would vote differently now, but I had already turned in my vote, and it wouldn't have made any difference anyway.

Patti

 

[Hawaiibarb]

Fairfield policies

I had hoped that the Pahio owners would be grandfathered in Fairfield, or have something like an internal exchange withtheir resorts. that would have made it more of a win-win situation. But they are so bottom-line oriented that, of course, that want money in exchange for that happening......a lot of money.

Regarding Pahio internal exchanges: I did get one with Maui Hill, with whom Pahio had a "sister" relationship.....no exchange fee involved, but I did have to accept a one bedroom for my two bedroom. And VIP Services has always handled my reservations for any Pahio resorts. I hope we don't lose them; they are great!

 

[ajsmithtx]

But they are so bottom-line oriented that, of course, that want money in exchange for that happening......a lot of money.

Barb, you nailed it!

 

[Hopster]

We went to the pressure sales today 6/14

We were hounded to go to a presentation. We told them that we were not in any position to buy anything right now and they told us that they will just answer questions about what is going on. Guess what, we were blantantly lied to.

I suggest all owners refuse to go to any presentation while they are here. They give you a supposed "one time" offer to convert to Wyndham points. Also you must buy some additional weeks also or you will never be offered an opportunity to move your package to Wyndham points again in the future. Or if you just want to move over to Windham points system, it will cost 10K for every week that you own.

Also get this-- all members of the Wyndham points system can now book for our home resort 1 month prior to us having access to book them, even if they do not own in our own resort. So some guy in Branson Missouri can book your unit 13 months out and prevent you from getting your own unit in your own resort if you don't pay them the thousands of dollars for every week that you own.

We were also shown the new slick looking 3 bedroom units in Bali Hai. We asked if all units were going to be upgraded to this standard when the time comes. We were told only if everyone moves over to the Wyndham points system. So are the Pahio owners that don't upgrade going to get stuck in the ratty units and never get upgraded like the Ka Eo Kai Phase 2 units?

The presentation was like a blackmail session- Either you upgrade to our system, or you will probably never be able to get access to your resort in the near future. Because everyone else who buys a timeshare from them in the future anywhere in the world from now on will get to reserve the resort before you will. And as soon as you see the presentation the offer is removed and never be offered again. Unless you pay them $1500.00, and they will extend the offer for 18 months longer.

This can't be legal-

 

[bigeyes1]

We are Shearwater owners. We all know Shearwater is a small resort. I would be HIGHLY upset if some non-owner was able to get into our home resort and we couldn't. Talk about ruffling some feathers. :annoyed:

We just put in our 2008 reservation 14 months in advance. In two months, I'll find out if our reservation has been granted or not. Let me say, if it doesn't get approved, this gal will be asking A LOT of questions.

Surely, Wyndham can't do this. We have no desire to buy another week nor convert into Wyndham points. We plan on staying at our home resort. If we're going to have problems getting into our own home resort, then what's the point of owning there??

Me not happy..

 

[Jya-Ning]

Also get this-- all members of the Wyndham points system can now book for our home resort 1 month prior to us having access to book them, even if they do not own in our own resort. So some guy in Branson Missouri can book your unit 13 months out and prevent you from getting your own unit in your own resort if you don't pay them the thousands of dollars for every week that you own.

That does not sounds right. The only way anyone can reserve from 11 month to 13 month is the one owns the resort in Fairfield. The only way a Branson Owner can make 13 month reservation is buy into the new units. And I believe convert week owner has upto 10 month to make reservation.

However, I am pretty sure they will seperate the new units with the fix and floating units. The floating owners that don't converted will not get to the new units.

We were also shown the new slick looking 3 bedroom units in Bali Hai. We asked if all units were going to be upgraded to this standard when the time comes. We were told only if everyone moves over to the Wyndham points system. So are the Pahio owners that don't upgrade going to get stuck in the ratty units and never get upgraded like the Ka Eo Kai Phase 2 units?

The presentation was like a blackmail session- Either you upgrade to our system, or you will probably never be able to get access to your resort in the near future. Because everyone else who buys a timeshare from them in the future anywhere in the world from now on will get to reserve the resort before you will. And as soon as you see the presentation the offer is removed and never be offered again. Unless you pay them $1500.00, and they will extend the offer for 18 months longer.

This can't be legal-

That does not right either. It really depends on who control the HOA. I believe every local government require HOA be turned over to owner when it sold out at a certain % (say 90%). In this case, HOA can say who will be the manage company, and if they want to remodel it. Some of the owner will converted anyway. But if these are the FF I know, I don't think they are able to upgrade your resort in a economic way, may as well change manage company that can get the job done in a timely fashion way.

Jya-Ning

 

[rifleman69]

We were also shown the new slick looking 3 bedroom units in Bali Hai. We asked if all units were going to be upgraded to this standard when the time comes. We were told only if everyone moves over to the Wyndham points system. So are the Pahio owners that don't upgrade going to get stuck in the ratty units and never get upgraded like the Ka Eo Kai Phase 2 units?

I have no problem with some of the units never getting updated to the Ali'i levels, being as they are being sold at premium prices (even before Wyndham got involved). But it is complete B.S. if someone who doesn't own any week at all in the PAHIO system to be able to reserve units before any owner can.

 

[pattic777]

What I understood was that Pahio owners who convert will get the extra month of selection time. And, the guy from Branson will only have access to weeks of owners who convert.

I am hoping against hope that Shearwater owners "just say no" and don't convert. I told the marketing guy who got called over that I was going to be very upset if my 14 month advance email got put behind someone else who got to select 13 months out. He pointed out to me that I didn't "own" the unit that I asked for and that there has never been a guarantee that I would get 3-weeks in unit 209 (which is what we generally request). I agreed to that (that I have had to move my request weeks at times, or take 311 or 304 or 303 instead), but asked if it would get to a point where Wyndham owners could book all the good units before me -- I didn't get a clear answer, but... I actually am not too worried. bigeyes -- I think you and I are in the minority who actually plan 14 months in advance.

Patti

 

[Robnsunny]

The earliest a non Pahio owner could reserve would be at 11 months using a VIP ARP reservation. Only owners at a particular resort can reserve at 13 months.

Only units wich the owners have converted to points (or unsold inventory converted by Wyndham) is available to other points owners at all.

I don't think you need worry about the salesman's misinformation.

 

[Hopster]

I am just telling you what Ed - their leading sales guy told us (ranked #4 in sales in their system- as he told us many times). We own 3 weeks in all the Princeville Pahio resorts. That would have put us over 1 million wyndham points per year and placed us at the Platinum or highest level. An owner at ANY resort at that point level or higher (which there are over 9000 of them at the moment) can reserve ANY resort 13 months out, at an unlimited basis. I had him clarify this because it just did not seem correct.

There are 2 lower point levels packages - The medium one allows you to do the 13 month reservation 4 times a year and the lower one allows 2 times a year.

I then said that it appears that if I do not pay you the money, that every year it will be more difficult to reserve at my own resort. And he said my assumption was correct.

What gets me is that converting existing owners is just the matter of typing our information into a database. When I asked why this is costing money to convert, they told me because the purchase of the property cost Wyndham alot of money. Gee - ya think? So are the existing owners helping to offset the costs? We got the same answer when we asked why are they getting $50K per unit (now multiply that out for #units/building) every year for maintenance fees.

Also those of you coming in, you will notice a change in the personnel working here. Alot less smiling faces, and more eye roll expressions when you ask people questions or god forbid actually do their job. If this is going to be anything like the service at Wyndham Hotels, this will become just another cash siphon where they do just the minimum necessary and just go thru the motions. I am sure glad that ALL the employees got their pay doubled when Wyndham took over, makes me feel warm a fuzzy knowing that I am paying them more for their snotty service.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Good job, Hopster, we were told the same. The salespeople came right out and told us we would likely not get into Shearwater when we wanted or in the units we wanted because so many others would be ahead of us.

 

[Bill4728]

Only units wich the owners have converted to points (or unsold inventory converted by Wyndham) is available to other points owners at all.

This is the key information of this thread.

FF owners should only have access to units which have been converted. So if there are 100 units (5000 intervals) but only 10 units (500 intervals) have converted,then only those 10 units can be reserved by FF owners. ALL other units should be kept open for exclusive use by PAHIO owners. ( this is how it is suppose to work but the weasles at FF may try to makeup new rules )


PS Pahio owners may wish to find out what happened to peppertree and equivest owners at those resorts when FF took over.

 

[Hopster]

The thing with that Bill is how can they possibly distinguish which units every week are Pahio or FF? Being that everyone has flex weeks how do (or can) they determine that we should have "X" amount of Pahio Only units?

For instance next week I am supposed to move the Shearwater and I own on the second level. They say nothing above the ground level is available. We made requests 12 months out, 6 months out, 3 months out , 1 week out, and this week for a second level or higher since we were owners. How can it be that we cannot get at least what we purchased? How can it be that people trading in are getting higher units ? All you get is "we will try" replys and a click of the phone. Who is getting all the priority handling and why?

The scheduling system will need to be posted on the internet for all to see what is going on. Either there is favortism going on, or there are totally inept people working the reservations area that just had their wages doubled.

 

[pattic777]

I was told years ago that the "second level" or "middle level" units were the hardest for owners to get what they wanted because there are only 7 units (versus 10 for garden and 11 penthouse). Actually -- I was told that when there were only 3 middle units because building 3 was not yet built.

If you started trying 12 months ago, then that was before the transfer to Wyndham, so I don't think you can put this specific situation at their door.

We don't always get exactly the unit we want, or exactly the weeks we want, but we have a range of weeks and units that we want, and we have always get within that; but I email on the 1st day of the 14th month before our check-in date (the reminders start on my email a week before). Even at that, sometimes one of those pesky east coast owners gets their email sent before I send mine!

If you are on-island, go to the Ka'Eo Kai desk early on your check-in day -- we did this for a friend who was coming during our last stay in May. We were able to get the unit she wanted when we checked her in at a little after 11am (it was after church - we may have been able to get it earlier).

Patti