Ontario urges bars, restaurants to close amid COVID-19 pandemic

[T-Dot-Traveller]

.....Let's revisit the numbers. The most recent estimates of Ontario's population are in the range of 14.7 million. Per the article provided by Maple_Leaf, ........the total deaths are in the range of 1,700, ..."So the total deaths to-date represent 0.0156% of Ontario's population.
.......Those numbers are also much lower than we are seeing in many other jurisdictions outside Canada, particularly when compared to the USA. I think much of the credit for that is due to the relatively early, consistent and coordinated action by all levels of government here, especially compared to the "Keystone Kops" approach we have seen south of the border. And Canadians generally seem to have abided by the regulations.

I want to personally thank everyone involved for both their common-sense guidance and compliance!

In Canada / Ontario - everyone is a “part owner” of OUR healthcare system - (through the taxes we pay.)
I am glad to see our provincial CEO is committed to protecting my investment .
Timeshare analogy :
Canada’s provincial run healthcare is like a timeshare with many owners .
We expect the HOA to use good management and appropriate rules to make sure that the property is in good condition - so that we can use our week in “2021” .

IMO - the protesters are like those who wish to stay in the pool to 3 am while partying and potentially doing damage to the viability of everyone else’s ownership - in the property that is owned by all / not just them .

Hi Canuck Travlr ,
I am sorry to hear you lost a friend due to Covid 19 .
what I will now opine about is not intended to ignore individuals deaths .

As per my quote of my own post - we are also collectively spending OUR tax money to make sure the Canadian healthcare system is protected from being overwhelmed by the impacted of exponential growth in Covid 19 infections .The support systems used ; including CERB - is to help individuals ; AND ALL CANADIANS - by trying to remove the need to rush OUR reopening timelines .

Canada like the USA has had a “ too late “ approach to :
1 ) nursing homes- long term care facilities
2 ) meat processing plants)

80+% of Canada’s of deaths have been connected to LTC . The overall USA number is in the mid 30 % range ;
with states such as New York & New Jersey having about 50% .

Here is my guess - the Covid 19 death rate in LTC per 1000 residents (of LTC ) is about the same in both countries .The difference in the overall percentage is due to more community transmission **- south of the closed border .
That has resulted in the USA having a higher death rate per 100 K of population .

**. - [ as well as socio- economic co- morbidity’s ; and reluctance to quickly use a pay for use healthcare model by those with limited income ]

I prefer the Canadian model for mitigating deaths and impact on society - including the required deficit spending , to make it work .

 

[CanuckTravlr]

"I thought the chart was obvious." (Danny TS)


The chart is obvious, but you obviously either didn't read my commentary or didn't understand it. Either is OK with me.

So let me boil this down to a few simple questions, since you haven't really answered any of my previous ones. It is now obvious that you are not really concerned that "young" people might have to pay a disproportionate amount of the debt back, as you posited in your original post. Let me guess that what you are REALLY concerned with is that YOU perceive that you will have to pay back most of it yourself because you are in one of those top four groups, as am I.

So here are three real simple questions that will cut this discussion to the core.

First, do you or do you not think that a tax increase of 1% or 2% of income each year for 5 or 10 years is manageable? Second, if not, then what federal or provincial benefits are you prepared to give up to make up the difference? Finally, does saving lives matter to you, or do you not really care? I should have made the last question the first, because if the answer to it is "no", then the other two questions are moot.

 

[DannyTS]

"I thought the chart was obvious." (Danny TS)


The chart is obvious, but you obviously either didn't read my commentary or didn't understand it. Either is OK with me.

So let me boil this down to a few simple questions, since you haven't really answered any of my previous ones. It is now obvious that you are not really concerned that "young" people might have to pay a disproportionate amount of the debt back, as you posited in your original post. Let me guess that what you are REALLY concerned with is that YOU perceive that you will have to pay back most of it yourself because you are in one of those top four groups, as am I.

So here are three real simple questions that will cut this discussion to the core.

First, do you or do you not think that a tax increase of 1% or 2% of income each year for 5 or 10 years is manageable? Second, if not, then what federal or provincial benefits are you prepared to give up to make up the difference? Finally, does saving lives matter to you, or do you not really care? I should have made the last question the first, because if the answer to it is "no", then the other two questions are moot.

I am not arguing about what benefits should be cut, probably none would be my short answer. Unfortunately though bureaucracy is very costly and there should be a lot to do there but there is never a political will in Canada to do anything about that. In times like this, it would have been wonderful for the government to tell all the government workers it is time to work on 90-95% of the salary until we are back to normal. But that is fantasy land, I agree.

But my problem isn't even that. My problem is that all predictions say that we will never in the next 12-18 months will be at zero new cases in Canada so keeping things closed indefinitely will not work, just delay the spread. Then I wonder why not trying what Sweden is doing with relative success. I think protecting the vulnerable but letting others achieve herd immunity is the only sustainable solution.

 

[CanuckTravlr]

Hi Canuck Travlr ,
I am sorry to hear you lost a friend due to Covid 19 .
what I will now opine about is not intended to ignore individuals deaths .

Canada like the USA has had a “ too late “ approach to :
1 ) nursing homes- long term care facilities
2 ) meat processing plants)

80+% of Canada’s of deaths have been connected to LTC . The overall USA number is in the mid 30 % range ;
with states such as New York & New Jersey having about 50% .

Here is my guess - the Covid 19 death rate in LTC per 1000 residents (of LTC ) is about the same in both countries .The difference in the overall percentage is due to more community transmission **- south of the closed border .
That has resulted in the USA having a higher death rate per 100 K of population .

I prefer the Canadian model for mitigating deaths and impact on society - including the required deficit spending , to make it work .

Thanks for your sympathies, T-Dot-Traveller. As it happens, he was 79 and in a long-term-care facility due to an eight-year battle with dementia. He went within a few days of the diagnosis of Covid-19.

I agree with all your comments. Our current health care system works very well overall, but as your post points out, one of the weaknesses we have now discovered is in the management of long-term care facilities. I do have some experience with them and am not really surprised.

Hopefully we will learn some lessons from that and implement some changes. There have been encouraging comments in that direction by both the PM and Premier Ford. Unfortunately any changes will likely require increased staffing and funding and sometimes that commitment wanes once the crisis is over.

We will also have to make changes to how we do business going forward, whether that involves food processing facilities, dining inside restaurants, or large sporting or cultural events...anywhere that it is difficult to exercise ideal physical distancing. Unfortunately, I don't have any magic solutions, but the discussion needs to occur before we begin large scale re-openings.

I also agree strongly that our more consistent and coordinated approach here in Canada has helped us keep our overall infection and death rates per capita to about half those in the USA. If we had managed the long-term care operations better and assigned more resources to them earlier, plus looked at our food processing facilities more critically from the outset, our results might be even better.

However, hindsight is always clearer and this was completely uncharted territory. It was unfortunate, but not unexpected, that some area would get overlooked. There were just too many balls in the air at once.

Our strong banking and sophisticated payments systems also came into play once again, as they did in 2008. It allowed the money to get into the right hands on a fairly quick and timely basis, unlike the fiasco south of the border where many are still awaiting their first payment.

These are very difficult times, but there is also much to be thankful for!!

 

[CanuckTravlr]

I am not arguing about what benefits should be cut, probably none would be my short answer. Unfortunately though bureaucracy is very costly and there should be a lot to do there but there is never a political will in Canada to do anything about that. In times like this, it would have been wonderful for the government to tell all the government workers it is time to work on 90-95% of the salary until we are back to normal. But that is fantasy land, I agree.

But my problem isn't even that. My problem is that all predictions say that we will never in the next 12-18 months will be at zero new cases in Canada so keeping things closed indefinitely will not work, just delay the spread. Then I wonder why not trying what Sweden is doing with relative success. I think protecting the vulnerable but letting others achieve herd immunity is the only sustainable solution.

So we aren't really on such different pages after all!!

I agree, that until there is a vaccine or a significantly effective treatment there is no way to cut out ALL transmissions of Covid-19, particularly since it is so contagious in close contact and now apparently even when some people are still asymptomatic! The perfect solution is just to keep everything shut and locked down until then. Unfortunately that is not realistic. We will have to start gradually restarting the parts of the economy that have been shut down. There is no handbook or previous situation that really gives us easy answers for this.

What the current lockdown has effectively done is to slow down the rate of infection and bought us some time to both figure out some ways to deal with it in the short-term and to be that much closer to an effective treatment or vaccine. Even things like ramping up the supply of PPE for everyone potentially, not just essential front-line workers. It also involves time to figure out how to do things like reconfigure work spaces or stores or restaurants, or how to travel safely in large, crowded, urban areas. These take time and will involve some trial and error.

The Swedish model works, IMO, because most Swedes are comfortable with more intrusive government involvement and intervention than we are used to here in Canada, let alone the USA. Sweden is also much more isolated from the rest of Europe than we here in Canada are from the USA, which has had a massive outbreak. The Swedish model did keep most businesses open and operating, but there was a cost, in much higher infections and deaths per capita then we have experienced.

Sweden has a population of about 10.2 million, compared to Canada's 37.7 million. They currently have 27,909 confirmed Covid-19 cases and 3,460 deaths. They are also just now starting to have the same issues of outbreaks and deaths in long-term care facilities as we are experiencing here and admit they may have mishandled that area. Let's compare their outcomes with here in Canada. If we had been identical to Sweden, we would now have 102,400 confirmed Covid-19 cases, rather than 72,200 and we would have 12,700 deaths, rather than 5,300.

I understand the theory behind the Swedish model, but I think we will not know for some time whether it was more or less successful than our approach of shutting down much of the economy to save some 7,500 lives. Every one of those lives would have been someone's relative or friend. I would have a hard time voting to go with the Swedish model right now. Only time will tell which approach was "better". There seems to be mounting criticism that the Swedish model may not turn out to be as effective as it was initially felt, some of it from within Sweden itself.

 

[DannyTS]

So we aren't really on such different pages after all!!

I agree, that until there is a vaccine or a significantly effective treatment there is no way to cut out ALL transmissions of Covid-19, particularly since it is so contagious in close contact and now apparently even when some people are still asymptomatic! The perfect solution is just to keep everything shut and locked down until then. Unfortunately that is not realistic. We will have to start gradually restarting the parts of the economy that have been shut down. There is no handbook or previous situation that really gives us easy answers for this.

What the current lockdown has effectively done is to slow down the rate of infection and bought us some time to both figure out some ways to deal with it in the short-term and to be that much closer to an effective treatment or vaccine. Even things like ramping up the supply of PPE for everyone potentially, not just essential front-line workers. It also involves time to figure out how to do things like reconfigure work spaces or stores or restaurants, or how to travel safely in large, crowded, urban areas. These take time and will involve some trial and error.

The Swedish model works, IMO, because most Swedes are comfortable with more intrusive government involvement and intervention than we are used to here in Canada, let alone the USA. Sweden is also much more isolated from the rest of Europe than we here in Canada are from the USA, which has had a massive outbreak. The Swedish model did keep most businesses open and operating, but there was a cost, in much higher infections and deaths per capita then we have experienced.

Sweden has a population of about 10.2 million, compared to Canada's 37.7 million. They currently have 27,909 confirmed Covid-19 cases and 3,460 deaths. They are also just now starting to have the same issues of outbreaks and deaths in long-term care facilities as we are experiencing here and admit they may have mishandled that area. Let's compare their outcomes with here in Canada. If we had been identical to Sweden, we would now have 102,400 confirmed Covid-19 cases, rather than 72,200 and we would have 12,700 deaths, rather than 5,300.

I understand the theory behind the Swedish model, but I think we will not know whether it was more or less successful than our approach of shutting down much of the economy to save some 7,500 lives. Every one of those lives was someone's relative or friend. I would have a hard time voting to go with the Swedish model right now. Only time will tell which approach was "better". There seems to be mounting criticism that the Swedish model may not turn out to be as effective as it was initially felt, some of it from within Sweden itself.

I will disagree with the comparison Sweden - Canada because it seems to me that there are other factors in play besides the lockdown. One infected person in an overcrowded subway at the beginning of March can really make a difference and completely skew the numbers today. Look at Quebec vs Ontario, you will see that Quebec has a lot more cases and deaths than ON despite everything else being the same in terms of health care system and measures in place. If you compare Quebec and Sweden, you will see that the numbers are very similar despite the fact that Quebec closed everything and Sweden closed very little. Some say that Sweden has more cases because their spring break is mid-February and many people went to Italy, France etc for a warmer weather. Maybe this is why also Quebec has more cases than Ontario, the spring break is also earlier.

But counting cases now is meaningless for what the total situation will be when it is all done.. Sweden thinks it will achieve herd immunity in about 2 months so, if they are right, their cases should go down significantly and then go to zero at the time when we are ripe for a second wave and we may even have a third or a fourth wave later.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

But counting cases now is meaningless for what the total situation will be when it is all done.. Sweden thinks it will achieve herd immunity in about 2 months so, if they are right, their cases should go down significantly and then go to zero at the time when we are ripe for a second wave and we may even have a third or a fourth wave later.

The good news for Canada and all our provinces - is that we will collectively get to remotely see what works and what doesn’t around the world .

1) the Swedish model.-
2) The Iranian model - reopen after a shutdown & hospital chaos with many deaths - probably because that is the only option.
3 ) The Indian model -early full shutdown in a large country with a significant sub group of citizens that live day to day in terms of income to food access.
4) the New Zealand model - find an island far from anyone else .( may work / hard to find similar new islands )
5) the” go to herd immunity” as step one model - due to a densely populated urban country with a larger percentage that will sooner starve to death than die of Covid 19 - I will call this the Bangledesh model ( pop. 161million) although I am not sure of how that country is specifically modelling.
5) The various state models south of us - and the federal component that is not been in a coordinated mode
with many of them.
6) countries in our hemisphere -Mexico , Cuba , Dominican Republic , Brazil , Haiti , Venezuela etc.
7) Countries with healthcare system similar to Canada - Italy , France ,Spain , UK .
8) Russia - the deny & then shut down model (IMO).

Anyway - at this point in time Canada is positioned to observe and learn - while carefully managing provincial
reopenings in a stages that are formulated with planning .(IMO)

 

[DannyTS]

The good news for Canada and all our provinces - is that we will collectively get to remotely see what works and what doesn’t around the world .

1) the Swedish model.-
2) The Iranian model - reopen after a shutdown & hospital chaos with many deaths - probably because that is the only option.
3 ) The Indian model -early full shutdown in a large country with a significant sub group of citizens that live day to day in terms of income to food access.
4) the New Zealand model - find an island far from anyone else .( may work / hard to find similar new islands )
5) the” go to herd immunity” as step one model - due to a densely populated urban country with a larger percentage that will sooner starve to death than die of Covid 19 - I will call this the Bangledesh model ( pop. 161million) although I am not sure of how that country is specifically modelling.
5) The various state models south of us - and the federal component that is not been in a coordinated mode
with many of them.
6) countries in our hemisphere -Mexico , Cuba , Dominican Republic , Brazil , Haiti , Venezuela etc.
7) Countries with healthcare system similar to Canada - Italy , France ,Spain , UK .
8) Russia - the deny & then shut down model (IMO).

Anyway - at this point in time Canada is positioned to observe and learn - while carefully managing provincial
reopenings in a stages that are formulated with planning .(IMO)

I like the way you think, we can all sit back and relax for a few months, maybe for few years, until we "know for sure" before we make a decision. Except of course decisions have been made already and in most cases based on panic not science.

If you are retired, if you are a government employee, if you are a teacher, if you make more from unemployment than from your job, if you are a student and you are being paid to stay home, if your company pays you 100% to work from home, if you are a crown corporation employee, it sounds great and you have no downside.

If your business is failing and your interest on your loan keeps on ticking, if you are not sure if your business will even survive, if you are a previously successful professional (dentist, lawyer etc)and you are afraid your budget will resemble those under the poverty line, if you are a health care professional that fears the health care system will degrade further in the future due to lack of funds, if you are new graduate that has a pile of student debt and you do not know when the job market will come back to anything resembling normalcy, if you are an essential worker that does not understand why you work while a lot of other people get paid to stay home and in most cases a lot more than you, if you are a parent who believes your kids are not getting the education they need, you may see everything from a very different prospective.

 

[CanuckTravlr]

I like the way you think, we can all sit back and relax for a few months, maybe for few years, until we "know for sure" before we make a decision. Except of course decisions have been made already and in most cases based on panic not science.

If you are retired, if you are a government employee, if you are a teacher, if you make more from unemployment than from your job, if you are a student and you are being paid to stay home, if your company pays you 100% to work from home, if you are a crown corporation employee, it sounds great and you have no downside.

If your business is failing and your interest on your loan keeps on ticking, if you are not sure if your business will even survive, if you are a previously successful professionals (dentists, lawyers etc)and you are afraid your budget will resemble those under the poverty line, if you are a health care professional that fears the health care system will degrade further in the future for lack of funds, if you are new graduate that has a pile of student debt and you do not know when the job market will come back to anything resembling to normalcy, if you are and essential worker that does not understand why you work while a lot of other people get paid to stay home and in most cases a lot more than you, you may see everything from a very different prospective.

I am going to vehemently disagree with your assertion that decisions here were made out of panic rather than following science. To what science are you referring? IMO, all of the decisions here in Canada were based on the best science available at the time and mirrors much of what was happening in the rest of the world. And adjustments were made as that knowledge changed or better information became available. Just because you have a different viewpoint does not invalidate the scientific value behind those decisions. There is an old saying that says if everyone else is coming to different conclusions, then maybe you are the one who is wrong! Just consider it as a possibility!

At least we now know what the real axe is that you wish to grind. Yes, the current situation is troubling if you are an essential worker or self-employed in either a business or a profession. I have had my own business for over 40 years. As a CPA, CA and CFP I maybe have had an advantage in understanding the need for being fiscally conservative and managing for risk, whether economic in nature, or due to a health issue, or whatever. I knew if things went south that there would be no bailout or tag day for me or my business. As a business owner, I wasn't even eligible for EI; since that has only recently changed.

I have seen and advised many young business owners who pull every ounce of profit out of their businesses to fund a lifestyle they haven't yet earned. I have seen both business owners and regular wage earners spending money on fancy vacations, leasing up-market cars and spending too much time in fancy restaurants, etc., but putting nothing aside for emergencies or retirement. The first priority needs to be making sure the basic building blocks are in place to protect their businesses. Their livelihood depends upon their business and securing its ability to survive should be the first priority.

If you are envious of those being paid for sitting at home or their pension or benefits plan, maybe you chose the wrong career? You had the option of choosing one of those careers, as did I. I assume you made the decision you did for many of the same reasons. A regular job as an employee would have driven me crazy. I am too entrepreneurial. I wanted to build something. I wanted to be my own boss, despite the potential issues that come with the territory. I wanted to be the one in control of my fate. I knew there might be risks, but I tried to plan for them. As you possibly know, being your own boss is not the bed of roses some employees think it is. You will find thorns in there and need to carry a first-aid kit to patch up the cuts and bruises.

If you are not happy with your choices or your lot in life, change it. Don't whine about how much better off other people are that made different choices and how hard-pressed you are. Life isn't fair. Get over it. If you are a self-employed professional or business owner, there are several government subsidy programmes available to help you and/or your business to survive. Talk to your accountant or advisor, or get online with your bank and apply for them. You made your own choices. Now live with those choices, or make some changes.

 

[DannyTS]

I am going to vehemently disagree with your assertion that decisions here were made out of panic rather than following science. To what science are you referring? IMO, all of the decisions here in Canada were based on the best science available at the time and mirrors much of what was happening in the rest of the world. And adjustments were made as that knowledge changed or better information became available. Just because you have a different viewpoint does not invalidate the scientific value behind those decisions. There is an old saying that says if everyone else is coming to different conclusions, then maybe you are the one who is wrong! Just consider it as a possibility!

At least we now know what the real axe is that you wish to grind. Yes, the current situation is troubling if you are an essential worker or self-employed in either a business or a profession. I have had my own business for over 40 years. As a CPA, CA and CFP I maybe have had an advantage in understanding the need for being fiscally conservative and managing for risk, whether economic in nature, or due to a health issue, or whatever. I knew if things went south that there would be no bailout or tag day for me or my business. As a business owner, I wasn't even eligible for EI; since that has only recently changed.

I have seen and advised many young business owners who pull every ounce of profit out of their businesses to fund a lifestyle they haven't yet earned. I have seen both business owners and regular wage earners spending money on fancy vacations, leasing up-market cars and spending too much time in fancy restaurants, etc., but putting nothing aside for emergencies or retirement. The first priority needs to be making sure the basic building blocks are in place to protect their businesses. Their livelihood depends upon their business and securing its ability to survive should be the first priority.

If you are envious of those being paid for sitting at home or their pension or benefits plan, maybe you chose the wrong career? You had the option of choosing one of those careers, as did I. I assume you made the decision you did for many of the same reasons. A regular job as an employee would have driven me crazy. I am too entrepreneurial. I wanted to build something. I wanted to be my own boss, despite the potential issues that come with the territory. I wanted to be the one in control of my fate. I knew there might be risks, but I tried to plan for them. As you possibly know, being your own boss is not the bed of roses some employees think it is. You will find thorns in there and need to carry a first-aid kit to patch up the cuts and bruises.

If you are not happy with the choices or your lot in life, change it. Don't whine about how much better off other people are that made different choices and how hard-pressed you are. Life isn't fair. Get over it. If you are a self-employed professional or business owner, there are several government subsidy programmes available to help you and/or your business to survive. Talk to your accountant or advisor, or get online with your bank and apply for them. You made your own choices. Now live with those choices, or make some changes.

thank you for making this about me. If you had read some of my other posts, my family is not affected, strictly from a financial standpoint we may actually make more money now but that is not the point, I am looking around and I can see what is going on. Thank you for telling the young dentist he chose the wrong career, thank you for telling those that went to law school they should have chosen to be accountants. Tell that your dentist next time you see him or her.

A lot of the decisions have been made based on models that have been proven dead wrong. If they were remotely accurate, Sweden would look now like a mass grave but the number of deaths is a tiny fraction of what the models predicted. Children in Europe are considered to be in a very safe category but everyone now is freaking out in Canada not based on a new rigorous study but based on a conference of governor Cuomo. Schools have announced they may not even reopen in September after that conference. How is that science? Weeks ago we did not have to wear a mask, Dr Fauci said it was pointless. How was that science?

this is an interesting article written by Dr Mikko Paunio,a Finnish public health specialist and an adjunct professor in general epidemiology at the University of Helsinki.

The WHO’s pandemic of panic - The Conservative Woman

The WHO’s pandemic of panic

conservativewoman.co.uk

 

[CanuckTravlr]

Glad to hear it is not all about you. I have no way of looking at your other posts without going looking for them, since you do not allow others to view your profile and posts. I am not going digging for them. I am not that interested.

I have no need to tell my dentist anything. I would also not tell anyone to be an accountant and for the record I am not one either. Don't confuse my professional credentials with my business. My dentist is a client, so he has done the right things by putting money aside for emergencies to get through periods like this. Just talked to him the other day and he actually thanked me for my advice, because he and his staff are doing just fine right now, even though his practice has temporarily shut down.

I also happen to deal with some of the top lawyers in the country and they are doing just fine, too, but thank you for your concern. Lawyers can work from home, just like I can. People are still appearing in court (virtually), having custody hearings, buying and selling homes, doing business deals and dealing with deaths and estates. Not sure why a decent young lawyer should have any trouble making a living during this pandemic, anymore than I do or you seem to do.

In any case, no one is talking about a permanent shutdown, if that is what you are alluding to. We are already planning how to start things back up all over this country. You don't explain why well-trained, well-paid professionals should not be able to survive for three or four months with the available government assistance out there, which includes both my dentist and your young lawyer. Other than wanting to push the Swedish model as the be all and the end all, I have yet to see a clear suggestion from you as to what should have been done differently.

You seem to believe that only the Swedish model has merit and invoke voodoo science on everything else. So far the Swedish model is not working as well as the Canadian model... which has experienced amongst the lowest per capita infection and death rates in the developed world. All the talk about Sweden getting to herd immunity as it relates to Covid-19 is just theoretical talk, until we see if they actually get there and it actually works. Sweden isn't an island like New Zealand, so if the countries around Sweden don't have herd immunity will it actually work in Sweden itself? No one knows the answer to that, only educated guesses. So nothing proven there yet.

Don't claim other models have been disproved. It is way too early to tell what models perform best over the long term...only time will tell us the true answers. Until then it is just experts posturing theoretically. Theoretical models are just that, until they become proven. Just because you believe it is so, doesn't make it so.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

This planet needs a credible - World Health Organization .
The WHO has had issues dealing with something brand new - Covid 19 .

For now I am going to listening to -
The Guess Who
The Who

 

[DannyTS]

Glad to hear it is not all about you. I have no way of looking at your other posts without going looking for them, since you do not allow others to view your profile and posts. I am not going digging for them. I am not that interested.

I have no need to tell my dentist anything. I would also not tell anyone to be an accountant and for the record I am not one either. Don't confuse my professional credentials with my business. My dentist is a client, so he has done the right things by putting money aside for emergencies to get through periods like this. Just talked to him the other day and he actually thanked me for my advice, because he and his staff are doing just fine right now, even though his practice has temporarily shut down.

I also happen to deal with some of the top lawyers in the country and they are doing just fine, too, but thank you for your concern. Lawyers can work from home, just like I can. People are still appearing in court (virtually), having custody hearings, buying and selling homes, doing business deals and dealing with deaths and estates. Not sure why a decent young lawyer should have any trouble making a living during this pandemic, anymore than I do or you seem to do.

In any case, no one is talking about a permanent shutdown, if that is what you are alluding to. We are already planning how to start things back up all over this country. You don't explain why well-trained, well-paid professionals should not be able to survive for three or four months with the available government assistance out there, which includes both my dentist and your young lawyer. Other than wanting to push the Swedish model as the be all and the end all, I have yet to see a clear suggestion from you as to what should have been done differently.

You seem to believe that only the Swedish model has merit and invoke voodoo science on everything else. So far the Swedish model is not working as well as the Canadian model... which has experienced amongst the lowest per capita infection and death rates in the developed world. All the talk about Sweden getting to herd immunity as it relates to Covid-19 is just theoretical talk, until we see if they actually get there and it actually works. Sweden isn't an island like New Zealand, so if the countries around Sweden don't have herd immunity will it actually work in Sweden itself? No one knows the answer to that, only educated guesses. So nothing proven there yet.

Don't claim other models have been disproved. It is way too early to tell what models perform best over the long term...only time will tell us the true answers. Until then it is just experts posturing theoretically. Theoretical models are just that, until they become proven. Just because you believe it is so, doesn't make it so.

Your argument that the Swedish model may not prove successful works both for and against you because what Canada and others are doing now is also rather experimental for the whole society, you have no way of proving that this is the best approach so why not listening to other opinions as well? Quebec is the 7th highest in the world in terms of number of deaths for 100,000 people and it did everything right about social distancing, closing businesses and everything else like the rest of Canada. When you compare Ontario with some parts of the US that did not close, it is doing rather poorly. How can you prove then that the Canadian model is a success when the results are so heterogeneous? And, as explained to you before, it is the total number of casualties when this is over that counts, do not count your chicken before they hatch, the pandemic is not over. You do not seem to understand how herd immunity works and why it is important for the society as a whole. Someone can still go from Finland to Sweden and infect somebody even after the herd immunity is reached. But the virus will just die out again fast, there will be too many road blocks for it to have a community transmission. They may not even know it if the infected person is asymptomatic.

I think you are ignoring that people are at different stages of life and it is easier for someone who is a bit older to feel more secure with all the money accumulated over the years. A dentist who sold his business a year ago and is pre-retirement now is in a very different position than the dentist who just bought a practice. Someone who immigrated to Canada few years ago, went to university here, got married, has one or two kids, just bought a house an nobody to count on is in a very different situation that an empty nester with a paid house. This is not just about planning, it is also about the stage of like. I am glad to hear that the top lawyers in the country are doing fine (like you knew all of them).

You say people should be patient for 3- 4 months but it has already been 8 weeks and this is not what is going on. Schools are not going to open until at least September. Can you guarantee we will not have the same discussion then? It is too early and all that? It was just announced today the federal government is extending the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy until the end of August. It is not hard to see where this is heading.

I know you like to read so this is about the debt added by C19 from a provincial prospective:

Debt nation: Canada’s provinces are too big to fail, but too small to survive COVID-19 on their own

Trouble is there’s no formal bailout process in place — and this crisis could be too big and too broad for a quick political fix

business.financialpost.com

Have in mind that both the federal and provincial numbers are before the current extension for another 3 months.

 

[DannyTS]

They just announced the FEDERAL deficit for this year
343 BILLION DOLLARS!!!!

'The challenge of our lifetime': Federal deficit to hit $343 billion this year

The federal deficit is projected to hit $343.2 billion this fiscal year, due in large part to massive economic aid and stimulus plans—that are on-par with Second World War level spending— that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's government has rolled out in response to the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic.

www.ctvnews.ca

Ontario (not current)
40 Billions

Ontario deficit expected to rise to $41 billion - Daily Commercial News

TORONTO — The Financial Accountability Office of Ontario (FAO) projects that Ontario’s budget deficit will quadruple to $41 billion in 2020-21, the largest in Ontario’s history. The FAO’s Spring 2020 Economic and Budget Outlook report issued May 11 outli

canada.constructconnect.com

Quebec (not current)
15 billions

Quebec to post historic $14.9B deficit in 2020-2021 as virus ravages economy

Finance Minister Eric Girard insisted that the return to balanced books can be achieved without major austerity measures or tax increases.

montrealgazette.com

Nova Scotia (not current)
1 billion

Nova Scotia government faces debt tidal wave

Jake Fuss for Troy Media • Rising government debt can dampen economic growth and divert billions of dollars away from important public priorities

troymedia.com

New Brunswick (not current)
0.3 billions

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/covid-19-new-brunswick-finance-budget-deficit-1.5625402

Alberta (not current)
20 billions

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-pst-opinion-poll-favour-oppose-1.5603707

Manitoba
2.9 billions

Manitoba predicting $2.9B deficit due to COVID-19

The Manitoba government announced its economic and fiscal update, and the government said it is expecting a deficit of $2.9 billion for 2020-21.

winnipeg.ctvnews.ca

and so on

 

[Maple_Leaf]

A selection of long-standing Toronto businesses killed by the coronavirus lockdowns:

Dufflet Pasteries after 18 years
Dave's Pub on St. Clair West
Ghandi on Queen West where the butter chicken roti was invented
Il Gatto Nero in Little Italy after 61 years
LeTAO the only Canadian outlet for the Japanese cheesecake brand
Luci on the Queensway, successor to the venerable Bistro-990 of Hollywood filmmaker fame and the famous Meg Ryan chicken
Prohibition closed both the Queen East and Yonge/Eglinton locations
Copacabana on Eglinton East
Scallywag's Yonge/St. Clair after 23 years
Shore Leave popular tiki bar on Danforth
Southern Accent after 37 years where Cajun food was introduced to Toronto
Vesuvio's in the Junction one of Toronto's oldest pizza places
Underground Garage a King West dive bar
Tokyo Hot Fried Chicken on King West
Crocodile Rock on Adelaide West after 30 years of live music and debauchery
Nando's Portuguese chicken 21 closed across Canada
Apollo 11 diner in Annex after 50 years
Montecito hot spot for TIFF parties in Entertainment District
Disgraceland vegan dive bar in Bloorcourt
Wayne Gretzky's after 27 years...need I say more
Old Nick Pub on Danforth after 15 years
Pete's Corner Grill in Parkdale after 11 years
The Pickle Barrel at Dundas Square
Victorian Monkey pub in Scarborough
Athena Bakery in Danforth...no more loukoumades from here
Bar Buca at Yonge/Eglinton...big venue that never really got to open
The Boat bar in Kensington with porthole windows and live music
Brass Taps pizza pub on Danforth after 30 years
Brothers restaurant in Yorkville award winning food and fine wine goes bye bye
Cafe Crepe on Queen West crepe takeout window after 23 years
Furama Cake and Dessert Garden bakery in Chinatown after 30 years
Golden Thai on Church after 25 years
The Hive esports and gaming centre near Yonge/St. Clair
JJ Bean coffee shop all Toronto locations closed
Kit Kat on King West after 30+ years...nuff said
N'Awlins jazz bar on King West after who knows how long?
The Orbit Room in Little Italy after 25 years
Pappas Grill on Danforth after 30 years
Ruby Watchco in Riverside...another top chef goes bye bye
Sea-Hi at Bathurst/Wilson Chinese food for 60 years, 80 if you count their previous Chinatown location
Swiss Chalet at Yonge/Gerrard
Tucker's Marketplace buffets are dead all across Toronto
Wexford Restaurant in Scarborough diner after 60 years

 

[DannyTS]

A selection of long-standing Toronto businesses killed by the coronavirus lockdowns:

Dufflet Pasteries after 18 years
Dave's Pub on St. Clair West
Ghandi on Queen West where the butter chicken roti was invented
Il Gatto Nero in Little Italy after 61 years
LeTAO the only Canadian outlet for the Japanese cheesecake brand
Luci on the Queensway, successor to the venerable Bistro-990 of Hollywood filmmaker fame and the famous Meg Ryan chicken
Prohibition closed both the Queen East and Yonge/Eglinton locations
Copacabana on Eglinton East
Scallywag's Yonge/St. Clair after 23 years
Shore Leave popular tiki bar on Danforth
Southern Accent after 37 years where Cajun food was introduced to Toronto
Vesuvio's in the Junction one of Toronto's oldest pizza places
Underground Garage a King West dive bar
Tokyo Hot Fried Chicken on King West
Crocodile Rock on Adelaide West after 30 years of live music and debauchery
Nando's Portuguese chicken 21 closed across Canada
Apollo 11 diner in Annex after 50 years
Montecito hot spot for TIFF parties in Entertainment District
Disgraceland vegan dive bar in Bloorcourt
Wayne Gretzky's after 27 years...need I say more
Old Nick Pub on Danforth after 15 years
Pete's Corner Grill in Parkdale after 11 years
The Pickle Barrel at Dundas Square
Victorian Monkey pub in Scarborough
Athena Bakery in Danforth...no more loukoumades from here
Bar Buca at Yonge/Eglinton...big venue that never really got to open
The Boat bar in Kensington with porthole windows and live music
Brass Taps pizza pub on Danforth after 30 years
Brothers restaurant in Yorkville award winning food and fine wine goes bye bye
Cafe Crepe on Queen West crepe takeout window after 23 years
Furama Cake and Dessert Garden bakery in Chinatown after 30 years
Golden Thai on Church after 25 years
The Hive esports and gaming centre near Yonge/St. Clair
JJ Bean coffee shop all Toronto locations closed
Kit Kat on King West after 30+ years...nuff said
N'Awlins jazz bar on King West after who knows how long?
The Orbit Room in Little Italy after 25 years
Pappas Grill on Danforth after 30 years
Ruby Watchco in Riverside...another top chef goes bye bye
Sea-Hi at Bathurst/Wilson Chinese food for 60 years, 80 if you count their previous Chinatown location
Swiss Chalet at Yonge/Gerrard
Tucker's Marketplace buffets are dead all across Toronto
Wexford Restaurant in Scarborough diner after 60 years

"we are in this together" indeed

Concerning my earlier post in June, the deficit is now estimated at 384 billion dollars and it will probably be even higher. I wonder how many medical wonders could have been done in normal times with this kind of money but they could barely find few more billions every year to keep the health care system from sinking.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

A selection of long-standing Toronto businesses killed by the coronavirus lockdowns:

Dufflet Pasteries after 18 years .......

Dougie’s gonna have a hard time finding a place to eat .... or ski

 

[jabberwocky]

Having just stayed for 10 days in DT Toronto a couple of weeks ago, I can’t say enough how decimated the dining establishments are. Some of my usual favourites seem to be getting by with take-out, but many are just closed up (some for good).

I had to laugh at one restaurant website that stated their downtown Toronto location was closed, but I was welcome to visit their original Montreal location.

 

[PrairieGirl]

Efforts will continue to get Canadians currently out of country back home.

And why exactly would that be? If you are trying to return to Canada OK, great. But this Canadian is very happy to be in my snowbird home, in the sunshine and outdoors for the winter rather than trying to survive where the only options to leave the house involve other enclosed spaces.

I am seeing less Covid in my community here than I see in my community at home. We must be careful, distance and mask, etc. but life goes on here as it always has. Golf is the original socially distanced activity.

And by the way, Ontario is not all of Canada (can you tell I'm from the West?). This isn't directed at the folks from Ontario, but rather the folks down South who only see the news reports.

I don't mean to make light of the issue of Covid, but the more dense the population base, no matter WHERE you are in the WORLD, the worse the situation will be and the more stringent the mitigation measures will need to be.

 

[dioxide45]

And why exactly would that be? If you are trying to return to Canada OK, great. But this Canadian is very happy to be in my snowbird home, in the sunshine and outdoors for the winter rather than trying to survive where the only options to leave the house involve other enclosed spaces.

I am seeing less Covid in my community here than I see in my community at home. We must be careful, distance and mask, etc. but life goes on here as it always has. Golf is the original socially distanced activity.

And by the way, Ontario is not all of Canada (can you tell I'm from the West?). This isn't directed at the folks from Ontario, but rather the folks down South who only see the news reports.

I don't mean to make light of the issue of Covid, but the more dense the population base, no matter WHERE you are in the WORLD, the worse the situation will be and the more stringent the mitigation measures will need to be.

THe post you quoted is from March.

 

[Maple_Leaf]

I've been reminded by others of the following Toronto favourites I carelessly left off my original list of businesses gone belly-up due to Coronavirus lockdowns:

Laser Quest all North American locations because fun kills
Bake Shoppe on College known for legendary birthday cakes
The Ossington on Ossington no more live comedy or poetry here
Adamson's BBQ in Etobicoke award-winning Texas hill country BBQ shut by the city and owner arrested for inciting rebellion against the latest lockdown
Rose & Crown Pub at Yonge/ Eglinton after 40 years no rebellion here just plywood
Moog Audio on Queen West electric music equipment for bands, parents of teenage boys breathe sigh of relief
The Hideout on Queen West no more live rock music here, uh oh what's that loud racket in my garage?
Casa Mezcal, Marbl and King Taps on King West shut by the city for inciting rebellion amongst the straight-laced denizens of King West
Mendocino clothing retailer closed all Toronto stores, going online only

 

[DannyTS]

I've been reminded by others of the following Toronto favourites I carelessly left off my original list of businesses gone belly-up due to Coronavirus lockdowns:

Laser Quest all North American locations because fun kills
Bake Shoppe on College known for legendary birthday cakes
The Ossington on Ossington no more live comedy or poetry here
Adamson's BBQ in Etobicoke award-winning Texas hill country BBQ shut by the city and owner arrested for inciting rebellion against the latest lockdown
Rose & Crown Pub at Yonge/ Eglinton after 40 years no rebellion here just plywood
Moog Audio on Queen West electric music equipment for bands, parents of teenage boys breathe sigh of relief
The Hideout on Queen West no more live rock music here, uh oh what's that loud racket in my garage?
Casa Mezcal, Marbl and King Taps on King West shut by the city for inciting rebellion amongst the straight-laced denizens of King West
Mendocino clothing retailer closed all Toronto stores, going online only

I am wondering if the remaining restaurants will start to charge higher prices when this is over. Some of their costs are down of course but they probably have a lot of outstanding bills and debt that they will have to resolve somehow. With lower competition and a population eager to go out (again once this is over), they may be able to and still have enough customers.

 

[dioxide45]

I am wondering if the remaining restaurants will start to charge higher prices when this is over. Some of their costs are down of course but they probably have a lot of outstanding bills and debt that they will have to resolve somehow. With lower competition and a population eager to go out (again once this is over), they may be able to and still have enough customers.

We have already seen increases in restaurant prices "down here". Probably a culmination of multiple things, increased labor costs, increased food costs, increased sanitation costs.

 

[Cornell]

I am wondering if the remaining restaurants will start to charge higher prices when this is over. Some of their costs are down of course but they probably have a lot of outstanding bills and debt that they will have to resolve somehow. With lower competition and a population eager to go out (again once this is over), they may be able to and still have enough customers.

You already see the higher prices with the Covid surcharges on restaurant bills. Additionally - I feel like the restaurants are pushing more and more for tips on carry out food, which in theory, is nonsensical, because a tip is for service, which you aren't getting w/carry-out.

 

[DannyTS]

probably the vacation prices will also go up during peak seasons. The business crowd may not return to the previous levels soon but you can imagine the bidding on plane tickets and hotel rooms for spring break 2022 and Christmas, New Year's etc.