No More Tidy's at MVC?

[bazzap]

This is a typical daily tidy service / midweek cleaning service / full cleaning service in European MVC resorts.
It is an even more comprehensive daily service in Asian MVC resorts.

 

[bizaro86]

There are no contractual obligations to a midweek service and from what I can tell the majority of US resorts do not offer such an option. This was never something that was sold but it may have been hyped by sales and it may have been present at some resorts for some time. If one looks larger picture, this is unusual at timeshares in the US in general. IMO if you want such you should pay for it. IMO it should have always been that way but given the recent fee increases, it's time to eliminate them where possible. It's a change that would have a measurable impact on yearly fees.

The majority of Marriott resorts don't offer midweek tidy. The vast majority of upscale TS resorts do. Basically Marriott is the only higher end chain without that amenity for owners. You'd think if it was a significant cost that MVC fees would be lower than their hotel chain competitors, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Red elephant]

Unfortunately if your fellow owners aren't prepared to pay for that in their maintenance fees, the HOA may remove it to 'show' that they are doing what owners want.

If not enough people complain when it's implemented and GSI stays good, they'll probably leave it not in place.

Marriott’s MF are the highest in the industry and they don’t provide midweek tidy so I am still waiting for the HOA to show how they are doing what owners want by reducing MF.

 

[ljmiii]

DVC is different, their daily option is a cover to check the rooms and be sure that there are no issues...

True...but before the Vegas shooting DVC provided a mid-week tidy on day 4 of a 5-7 night stay and a full cleaning on day 4 on a 8+ night stay. They still do the full cleaning if you let them.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

True...but before the Vegas shooting DVC provided a mid-week tidy on day 4 of a 5-7 night stay and a full cleaning on day 4 on a 8+ night stay. They still do the full cleaning if you let them.

DVC still does this, in addition to the Security check/garbage empty.

 

[Dean]

The majority of Marriott resorts don't offer midweek tidy. The vast majority of upscale TS resorts do. Basically Marriott is the only higher end chain without that amenity for owners. You'd think if it was a significant cost that MVC fees would be lower than their hotel chain competitors, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm guessing the real cost is $10 to $15 per day per unit. I've always assumed the much higher costs for such items done OOP was to deter the option. NO way is the actual cost of a Trash and towel costing $50. There aren't a lot of high end timeshares, basically 4 seasons and RC. I qualified to the US because I know that in Europe and Asia it's far more common and there are explanations as to why this is so. I'd love to see a list of which US & Caribbean resorts that do or do not offer the options so I think I'll start a thread on that subject.

True...but before the Vegas shooting DVC provided a mid-week tidy on day 4 of a 5-7 night stay and a full cleaning on day 4 on a 8+ night stay. They still do the full cleaning if you let them.

I'm not sure DVC has ever given a plausible explanation of why they do what they do now but I think it's more practical than looking for a shooter and likely looking for issues that are far more common.

 

[MikeM132]

I then noted that this is the only MVC I've stayed in that doesn't have a tidy, noting that I had one this year at another MVC in Palm Desert. They responded to that as follows:

"Please note that this is a corporate initiative and affects all resorts across the company."

Have you all been experiencing this recently at all the MVC resorts? We're off to our home resort in a few weeks where I've always had a tidy, and am I supposed to expect this there? Why isn't this included as part of our maintenance fees? I don't recall getting any notice on this...did you. We should fight this and get back to our Owners' Associations!

It has been so long for me I forgot we used to get this. I have stayed all over at MVC properties and don't think I've had a mid-week thing in 20 years.

 

[Hindsite]

Marriott’s MF are the highest in the industry and they don’t provide midweek tidy so I am still waiting for the HOA to show how they are doing what owners want by reducing MF.

If you want to know follow up with your HOA and have regular meetings with the resort management. I find that works.

My MVC maint fees are less that Hyatt or DVC and I get daily service at the europe resorts, so that's OK for me.

 

[Red elephant]

If you want to know follow up with your HOA and have regular meetings with the resort management. I find that works.

My MVC maint fees are less that Hyatt or DVC and I get daily service at the europe resorts, so that's OK for me.

 

[Red elephant]

If you want to know follow up with your HOA and have regular meetings with the resort management. I find that works.

My MVC maint fees are less that Hyatt or DVC and I get daily service at the europe resorts, so that's OK for me.

Yes mine too but we are talking about US resorts and I am responding to you about HOA’s doing what owners want to reduce fees which is not happening and they don’t provide mid week tidy. My Spain weeks MF don’t compare to US.

 

[Hindsite]

Yes mine too but we are talking about US resorts and I am responding to you about HOA’s doing what owners want to reduce fees which is not happening and they don’t provide mid week tidy. My Spain weeks MF don’t compare to US.

I see US resorts HOA's and their management teams taking actions to keep costs controlled. If you speak to the teams at the resorts, you'll find out the horror stories of how people abuse the systems such as "hosting" a rotating door of guests in and out through a week, who all need linen changes and fresh towels. Guests who swap out towels at very, very high frequency, several times per day, just because they can. Occupancy limits being exceeded, consumables being taken home in high volumes and probably many more innovative ways people abuse the system.
Spend a bit of time talking to the local management team and you may find they are much more interested in saving owners money than you assume. Some management teams may also be completely rubbish at it, but that's just how things go, and it usually doesn't last. That's my experience and whenever I dig into things I find that what has been done is reasonable and in line with what I would expect, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[Red elephant]

I see US resorts HOA's and their management teams taking actions to keep costs controlled. If you speak to the teams at the resorts, you'll find out the horror stories of how people abuse the systems such as "hosting" a rotating door of guests in and out through a week, who all need linen changes and fresh towels. Guests who swap out towels at very, very high frequency, several times per day, just because they can. Occupancy limits being exceeded, consumables being taken home in high volumes and probably many more innovative ways people abuse the system.
Spend a bit of time talking to the local management team and you may find they are much more interested in saving owners money than you assume. Some management teams may also be completely rubbish at it, but that's just how things go, and it usually doesn't last. That's my experience and whenever I dig into things I find that what has been done is reasonable and in line with what I would expect, even if I don't agree with it.

Yes I have heard all those stories but does not explain why MVC has the highest MF with no midweek tidy unless they are saying only MVC owners and their guests abuse these systems. Vistana MF were lower till MVC got their hands on it and we still get mid week tidy. Probably not for long.

 

[Hindsite]

Yes I have heard all those stories but does not explain why MVC has the highest MF with no midweek tidy unless they are saying only MVC owners and their guests abuse these systems. Vistana MF were lower till MVC got their hands on it and we still get mid week tidy. Probably not for long.

The MFs are all set out in the budget statement, that's the "Why". I'm sure abuse goes on at all brands and owners pay for that too.

I haven't seen an analysis that says MVC have the highest MF with no midweek clean, can you provide the info on that?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

The MFs are all set out in the budget statement, that's the "Why". I'm sure abuse goes on at all brands and owners pay for that too.

I haven't seen an analysis that says MVC have the highest MF with no midweek clean, can you provide the info on that?

I can only compare to what I own.

HGVC is on average $300 - $1000+ cheaper MF-wise and includes tidies and sometimes full cleanup - no questions asked. We've traded into Four Seasons Algarve (not same as hotel chain), and they had mid-week. Fiesta Americana in MX has midweeks and even cleaned the dishes.

For resorts, we pay $850 (1 bdrm) and $1150 (2 bdrm) on our 3 HGVC club units per year. We get mid-week and sometimes full mid-week clean for all. Tip housekeeping and they will do it more often.

To compare: I can buy 3(!) more HGVC 2bdrm resales units to pay the same MF as we pay for WKORVN MF. We have traded those points into Hawaii, Cabo, Europe, skiing and Hiltons via points. Our WKORVN (enrolled in Abound) and WKV approx $3500+ per week and $1500+/week respectively! (At least we get a midweek tidy.)

We also own a deeded HGVC week in expensive NYC and pay approx. $1750/year in MF - and that's our most expensive HGVC unit - it includes lounge access with breakfast and evening heavy appetizers/alcohol included in that price for my entire party daily plus tidies. I can add nights or extra rooms for < $100/night to accommodate family and they get lounge access too.

Evening appetizers are not airport lounge Chex fare, it changes but frequently includes salads, sushi, vegetables, shrimp, cheeses, guac beer and wine - it often substitutes for light dinner for many owners.

How much do you pay in Abound for a week in NYC? And what amenities do you get?

To be fair: HGVC doesn't offer as many activities as MVC resorts. Some properties offer no activities, but we do not use those so if MVC eliminated or charged a fee to keep MF lower, I would be in favor. Locations amenities can vary between HGVC and MVC. WKORVN is superior location IMO to HGVC Maui but HGVC is less crowded and has nicer pools. HGVC has superior/equivalent resorts on other Islands and Cabo.

MF this year and last two years only went up single digit - 5% or less in most cases (MVC's excuse for double digit? - inflation )

 

[Hindsite]

I can only compare to what I own.

Yep that sure works, I don't have or need NYC and wouldn't expect that to represent the system as a whole and we all know Hawaii is expensive relative to almost anything.
That doesn't show that MVC is the highest in the US system with no midweek cleans, that could be correct, or it could be mostly correct or it could be sometimes correct. In my view its at least sometimes correct, but unlikely to be always correct.
There are many excellent value resorts in the US that are half or a third of MVC that can exchange into higher demand or better quality resorts, you just have to look at the sightings forum or FB pages for II for that.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

There are probably arbitrage cases. I know GC is mentioned frequently for trading. But MFs there can run $1400 or more. To compare to HGVC Elara or Blvd those 2 bdrms run about $1100 so $300 cheaper and those can translate into points for short stays and convert to Hilton.com. But cannot be locked off like MVC.

For a number of reasons (including RTU vs. Deed for eventual exit) I like the International MVCs. So if we bought more, it would be via one of these properties. In the meantime will try to trade into them via II (or possibly Abound/Abound rental) because that is the most cost effective.

Bottom line: I would not be asking these questions if our WKORV MF had stayed in the sub $3000 range. This will be at $4000 in a year or two so this train is not moving in the right direction.

 

[daviator]

Bottom line: I would not be asking these questions if our WKORV MF had stayed in the sub $3000 range. This will be at $4000 in a year or two so this train is not moving in the right direction.

So agreed. I have owned at WKORV since pre-construction. Back in ~2004 I recall that the maintenance fees were under $1400 for a 2BR LO. Now they are pushing $4000. Yes, inflation has occurred, but a tripling of prices? I don’t think so. (AI tells me that $1 from 2004 is worth $1.57 today. So inflation alone would only support MFs of about $2200.)

The value proposition for existing owners keeps declining. Looking at listings on Redweek, it’s still cheaper to own and pay MFs than it is to book an equivalent unit a few months out, based on asking prices, but there are LOTS of available units (even still for Christmas week!) at prices below what we pay in MFs closer in. It’s hard to know what rates are actually finding renters.

All the money we paid to acquire our units is a sunk cost, one I don’t (yet?) regret, but one I certainly would not advise anyone to make today. The value is nowhere near what it used to be.

I miss Starwood.

 

[dioxide45]

(AI tells me that $1 from 2004 is worth $1.57 today. So inflation alone would only support MFs of about $2200.)

Inflation that government reports (CPI) and actual inflation that customers feel are two very different things.

 

[vacationtime1]

Inflation that government reports (CPI) and actual inflation that customers feel are two very different things.

Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with relative increases in MF's.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Whatever happened to the supposed MVC economies of scale with the merger with Vistana and Hyatt?

For example MVC manages properties up and down Kaanapai beach (Westins, MOC, Hyatt). You would expect they could keep housekeeping and maintenance fully employed across these properties and also decrease the cost of soap, towels, dishes and other supplies via volume discounts.

But costs have gone in the opposite direction. Something is amiss.

 

[dioxide45]

Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with relative increases in MF's.

It's been pointed out here many times that the cost of milk and eggs has little impact on the day to day operations of a timeshare resort.

 

[dioxide45]

Whatever happened to the supposed MVC economies of scale with the merger with Vistana and Hyatt?

For example MVC manages properties up and down Kaanapai beach (Westins, MOC, Hyatt). You would expect they could keep housekeeping and maintenance fully employed across these properties and also decrease the cost of soap, towels, dishes and other supplies via volume discounts.

But costs have gone in the opposite direction. Something is amiss.

I agree 100% with that and one reason I was against the purchase of ILG by VAC. These types of mergers don't help people at either end. They squeeze suppliers to sell products at a cheaper price and then charge the consumer at the other end a higher price. I believe most of the supplies the HOAs purchase are bought through VAC, not directly from the supplier. VAC has their own markup on the products.

The same is true of renovations. In many cases Marriott Renovation Services is the general contractor. VAC gets a fee for being the general contractor. On top of the management fee they collect for the reserve fund being used to pay for the renovations. I don't think management fees apply to reserve funding at Vistana resorts but it does with MVC. Economy of scale is there to help increase profitability, not decrease prices.

Generally I don't have an issue with mergers and acquisitions. I believe the market will correct itself. It is easier today than anytime in history to bring a product to market. I can choose to spend my money elsewhere. I don't have to vacation at Marriott timeshares. There are other alternatives. If they drive the price too far I can do something else or someone else may come along with a better and cheaper product that I will buy instead.

 

[daviator]

I agree 100% with that and one reason I was against the purchase of ILG by VAC. These types of mergers don't help people at either end. They squeeze suppliers to sell products at a cheaper price and then charge the consumer at the other end a higher price. I believe most of the supplies the HOAs purchase are bought through VAC, not directly from the supplier. VAC has their own markup on the products.

The same is true of renovations. In many cases Marriott Renovation Services is the general contractor. VAC gets a fee for being the general contractor. On top of the management fee they collect for the reserve fund being used to pay for the renovations. I don't think management fees apply to reserve funding at Vistana resorts but it does with MVC. Economy of scale is there to help increase profitability, not decrease prices.

Generally I don't have an issue with mergers and acquisitions. I believe the market will correct itself. It is easier today than anytime in history to bring a product to market. I can choose to spend my money elsewhere. I don't have to vacation at Marriott timeshares. There are other alternatives. If they drive the price too far I can do something else or someone else may come along with a better and cheaper product that I will buy instead.

Well said and I agree. I fear that MVC may kill their own golden goose through greed. I think they've accomplished their goal of driving MFs up to the maximum that people will pay before bailing out and are very close to crossing that line.