New Seasons?

[Ken555]

Oh Yeah, if being walking distance to the new Gondola is so darned important, why didn't SVO increase the SKI WEEK StarOptions at the new Avon Westin?

I was only mentioning it above as a data point when considering why Riverfront might be worth more. We all agree Starwood doesn't always make logical decisions. They should charge more for ski weeks... and I bet they do! But include more Options? They probably don't have to, since people who buy there (especially a ski week) will most likely use it more years than not.

 

[Ken555]

All this talk of devaluation made me go to the SVN web site and catch up on the news (I rarely visit that site). I was reading about the "expanding" food options at the store and restaurants at WKORV when on the side column read the following:

StarOptions

Seven-day stays in a Studio villa begin at just 67,100 StarOptions when you visit between January 4, 2008 and December 18, 2008. Call Owner Services toll free at 888.882.8365 or directly at 407.903.4785.

Hmm. Then I opened the new Option chart and confirmed that there's nothing special about the time after December 18th or before the first week of January. So, is this simply SVN saying that the holiday period is hard to book, or that they won't book it? Are these "Platinum Plus" weeks or similar?

Conspiracy theorists... start your engines!

 

[DeniseM]

I think this is the thing they announced a few weeks ago - now they are going to start listing availability. I think the wording simply excludes weeks 51 & 52 which are fixed weeks which were sold at a premium and only available to the owners of those weeks.

 

[SDKath]

Thanks for your comments. I hate to think my post is all subjective so here is some data to mull over:

1) Starwood takes over SVR. The resort gets downgraded to Silver Crown from Gold in less than 5 year's time due to bad service and completely run down units that have furnishings from the 70s in them. Finally after much complaining the "Board" votes to refurb the units (at least at Fountains, Lakes and Cascades) and long-time owners get a pleasant surprise of a $1200 "fee" attached to their 2008 MFs. So much for planning ahead for those refurbs.

2) Now take WSJ. The owners gripe and complain about the furnishings after Starwood takes over and to this day no refurbs done (except some superficial things like curtains being changed out) on the older units. TUG starts a wonderful owner's thread that encourages people to stand up and complain. Still nothing happens. Then Starwood decides to sell a completely new section for $50-$120,000 and those units get spectacularly nice, brand new furniture and lovely paint and flat screen TVs. Both old section and new owners pay the same maintenance fee, over $2000. Hmmmmm.

3) Sales prices:
WMH Platinum new: $38,900, resale $7000
WKORV new: $104,000 OFD, resale $50,000
SVV 3BR LO Plat new: $41,900, resale $9200
SVR new 2BR LO: $26,900, resale $550
SBP new 2BR LO: $31,900, resale $2500
PGA new 2BR LO: $23,900, resale $1000

(I got these prices for resales from actual purchases I just made this past month or had sellers offer me this past month or so and could have gone to escrow with)

By the way most people believe WSJ StarOptions increased because Starwood erroneously picked too low SOs originally. It was getting less SOs than most other comparable resorts (like WMH, WKV). So they just corrected the options to be more in line with other resorts in the system.

I don't know how you measure objectively "industry standard" for resorts falling apart but Old Key West is DVCs oldest resort and it is SPOTLESS and perfect on the inside and not once did points change or owners get hit with refurb fees. DVC just kept working on it and not letting it fall to pieces over time and it is still as lovely a place to stay as when it first opened.

As for new resorts costing more, this is just basic math. Home prices increase as inflation goes up and cost of land, building goes up. You can't expect prices to stay the same for 20-30 years. Same with TS prices. They are after all the built of the same sort of structures. However, the "value" of your purchase within an exchange should not be devalued with time. Again, take a look at DVC. Points have not changed ever for DVC owners (and never can). The cost of each point has gone up (clearly as it was near $50 15 years ago and now it's over $100). But if you want to book your OKW or BCV now, it would be the same number of points as 15 years ago. It's only fair.

Anyway, I am not anti-Starwood. Just the opposite. Heck, I just bought into the system and it's in my interest just as much as everyone else's here to keep SVN healthy and our resorts nice. It's an investment in our future and Starwood needs to see it that way just like we owners do.

Katherine

 

[Ken555]

Did Starwood agree to refurnish SVR when they purchased it? I don't know, I'm asking. If not (and I doubt it) then it would have been up to the owners to pay for such improvements. If they didn't manage their reserve appropriately, then they wouldn't have had the money to do it without a special assessment.

I believe the same can be said about WSJ. And, I remember reading last year on TUG (I'm sure others will chime in here and correct me if I recall incorrectly) that a special assessment vote was VOTED DOWN by the owners at least once. So, I don't blame Starwood for not paying for the improvements there, I blame the owners! Wouldn't you? And, why wouldn't the new resort have better furnishings and paint? After all, it's *NEW*. How this relates to the new section owners paying the same in maintenance fees is immaterial - it's how the OA manages the money over time that matters.

This brings me back to saying that I bought Kierland because I wanted a *NEW* resort which wouldn't see an impact on decisions of the Board for some time, unless something out of the ordinary happened. I can't say the same for those buying older resorts.

I have one question about your price comparison. Are those showing the LAST PUBLISHED developer price, or the actual price paid from the developer? Kierland shows something ridiculous for the last published price on the 2bed Plat - ~ $45,000 or so - when that's just an inflated price for the books (they really sold substantially less than that). Oh, and the voluntary resorts have always (or at least, for the last few years) sold at a substantial discount than comparable mandatory resorts.

Your comparison of Disney properties is a good one. And it shows, in my opinion, that the Disney management understands how to manage their money over the long-term better than most t/s groups. This doesn't mean that Disney will never have a special assessment.

And, I'm glad we agree on basic math. What we're not agreeing on is that Starwood has the right to change Options on new resorts or not. That is the crux of this discussion, after all.

I think Starwood has done a fantastic job at building new resorts. I think they've dropped the ball on the Elite program, and their sales staff makes me cringe. But I enjoy the resorts immensely, and hope to do so for many years to come. I wish I could take more time off every year and I'd buy another mandatory resale.

 

[LisaRex]

FYI, when I was trying to decide between the Marriott Maui and the Westin Maui timeshares, I spoke extensively to the Marriott salesperson.* When comparing prices side-by-side between, say, an OF 2 bdrm L/O in the Lahaina tower vs. WKORV-N, the prices were very similar, including MFs. (In fact, Marriott might have been less expensive.) But he did say several times that the MF included money going into a special fund for refurbishing the villas. He said that other companies only did this via assessments, but that Marriott did not do this.

Now, if for the same or less cost, Marriott can refurbish their villas without special assessments, why can't Westin? Or, what are they doing with all the money they are collecting from us?






*A Westin salesperson never called, nor did they ever send literature despite the fact that I requested to be contacted twice.

 

[Cathyb]

LisaRex: What are they doing with all their money (Westin)? Putting it in their pockets and smiling all the way to the bank! Westin is only interested in Sales, not after Sales. It would be interesting to see the turnover rates at Westin in Sales vs. Marriott. hmmmmm

 

[BradC]

But he did say several times that the MF included money going into a special fund for refurbishing the villas. He said that other companies only did this via assessments, but that Marriott did not do this.

All timeshare condo associations have an amount of your annual fees set aside for reserves to replace items within the unit based on an expected lifespan. This is standard within the industry.

As for the recent assessment at Vistana Resort, I would bet that a lot of the money from the assessment was for upgrades in the units. I've never stayed at SVR (so I don't know what the old units looked like), but I'm betting the recent assessment was to pay for upgrades to the units -- like replacing lower-cost kitchen countertops (something like formica) with granite. The existing reserves should have covered the replacement of the formica countertops (with new formica) whenever they were expected to be replaced.

 

[GrayFal]

From the 2008 MF stickie - I had copied and pasted this from MyStarCentral....

Sheraton PGA Vacation Resort 2BR L/O
operating assess 710.51
replace reserve 234.57
Real Estate tax 218.17
Total = $1,163.25

Sheraton Broadway Plantation 1BR 'shotgun'
operating assess 329.51
replacement reserve 56.03
Total = $ 385.54

I suspect every Starwood HOA has the replacement assessment in their budget - WHY they needed to assess above what they are collecting every year does not point to good management.

 

[GrayFal]

All timeshare condo associations have an amount of your annual fees set aside for reserves to replace items within the unit based on an expected lifespan. This is standard within the industry.

As for the recent assessment at Vistana Resort, I would bet that a lot of the money from the assessment was for upgrades in the units. I've never stayed at SVR (so I don't know what the old units looked like), but I'm betting the recent assessment was to pay for upgrades to the units -- like replacing lower-cost kitchen countertops (something like formica) with granite. The existing reserves should have covered the replacement of the formica countertops (with new formica) whenever they were expected to be replaced.

Marriott is doing this (granite and stainless appliances) at all their properties when the 10 year 'hard' refurbishment (furniture/appliances/countertops) is due without additional charges to the owners. 'Soft' refurbishment is done every 5 years - bedspreads, curtains, drapes, etc.

 

[Ken555]

I think the question of where the maintenance fees are going is a great question to discuss. I'm going to try to find my budgets from WMH and WKR and review them again - we get these every year. It might be interesting to compiile a comparison of how much $$ and % of each resorts maintenance is going to the reserve, and if there is a different definition of the reserve at each resort (that might be harder to discover). The results may be enlightening.

 

[LisaRex]

I'd also love to know if Marriott has a similar arrangement with their timeshare locations where the timeshare HOAs receive NOTHING for hotel guests staying there, either with points, cash or a combination of the above. I know that Marriott lists its timeshare locations on its website for very nice rates (e.g. 125k points for a 2 bdrm villa in Aruba), however I can attest that these villas are NEVER available. (That's an entirely different thread.) But let's say some do become available and guests book them for MRs and/or cash & points. Does Marriott pay nothing to the HOAs for these guests, like Westin does?

Per my owner's documents, which being a resale owner I didn't even have access to prior to buying, Westin gets control of all unreserved villas once the 90 day window opens up. And they aren't letting them go unused. As we've noted via several threads on these boards, Starwood is aggressively marketing our resorts, offering them up for seriously competitive rates, which, of course, thrills SPG members.

The trouble is that we owners receive NO benefits for these guests. Starwood pays the HOA no $$ for any of these rentals. We, on the other hand, get more crowded resorts and guests who sleep in our beds, knick our walls, and chip our dishes. They pay no MFs, no rent, and, of course, no special assessments; Starwood pockets it all. And I, personally, think that this one-side arrangement is outrageous.

I'm wondering if this unholy alliance is unique to Westin or if other companies such as Hyatt, Hilton, and/or Marriott treats its timeshare sister company so poorly. I certainly hope not.

 

[GrayFal]

I'd also love to know if Marriott has a similar arrangement with their timeshare locations where the timeshare HOA's receive NOTHING for hotel guests staying there, either with points, cash or a combination of the above. I know that Marriott lists its timeshare locations on its website for very nice rates (e.g. 125k points for a 2 bdrm villa in Aruba), however I can attest that these villas are NEVER available. (That's an entirely different thread.) But let's say some do become available and guests book them for MRs and/or cash & points. Does Marriott pay nothing to the HOAs for these guests, like Westin does?

Per my owner's documents, which being a resale owner I didn't even have access to prior to buying, Westin gets control of all unreserved villas once the 90 day window opens up. And they aren't letting them go unused. As we've noted via several threads on these boards, Starwood is aggressively marketing our resorts, offering them up for seriously competitive rates, which, of course, thrills SPG members.

The trouble is that we owners receive NO benefits for these guests. Starwood pays the HOA no $$ for any of these rentals. We, on the other hand, get more crowded resorts and guests who sleep in our beds, knick our walls, and chip our dishes. They pay no MFs, no rent, and, of course, no special assessments; Starwood pockets it all. And I, personally, think that this one-side arrangement is outrageous.

I'm wondering if this unholy alliance is unique to Westin or if other companies such as Hyatt, Hilton, and/or Marriott treats its timeshare sister company so poorly. I certainly hope not.

This is a bit OT but the Marriott units you see for rent on www.marriott.com are
1. developer owned (unsold) inventory
2. units of owners who chose to turn in their units for Marriott reward points
3. units that Marriott Owners have given to Marriott to rent for them thru their rental program

In example # 1 Marriott pays the MFs on those units and in #2 & 3, the owner pays the MFs.
Yes, it is 'wear and tear' on the resort but no different then if the resorts was 100% owner occupied.

I also agree that it is very difficult to book MVCI properties - 150,000 MRP for a 2BR villa - I have not actaually tried to do it but as with all points/miles reservations, you have to know when is the first day to call....I have friends that are going to stay at the 'fancy' Marriott in Rome in 2 weeks on points - they booked 4 rooms using points

 

[LisaRex]

Yes, it is 'wear and tear' on the resort but no different then if the resorts was 100% owner occupied.

If it was 100% owner occupied, then the owners would have paid MFs and SVN membership fees.

But, of course, you bring up an interesting point. A lot of people buy at lower priced resorts they never intend to use in order to get the maximum number of StarOptions to trade into other resorts. It's kind of a bummer that there's no reciprocity agreement where the resort that they do trade into gets some sort of monetary credit for the wear and tear. It seems only fair, though the bookkeeping would probably be a nightmare.

I have friends that are going to stay at the 'fancy' Marriott in Rome in 2 weeks on points - they booked 4 rooms using points

Aw man, I'd love to go to Rome. I wish Westin would build a Rome resort. All we seem to be getting is more timeshares in the same locations.

 

[GrayFal]

If it was 100% owner occupied, then the owners would have paid MFs and SVN membership fees.
But, of course, you bring up an interesting point. A lot of people buy at lower priced resorts they never intend to use in order to get the maximum number of StarOptions to trade into other resorts. It's kind of a bummer that there's no reciprocity agreement where the resort that they do trade into gets some sort of monetary credit for the wear and tear. It seems only fair, though the bookkeeping would probably be a nightmare.
Aw man, I'd love to go to Rome. I wish Westin would build a Rome resort. All we seem to be getting is more timeshares in the same locations.

Whoever is staying there is paying - whether they are owners or renters or exchangers there thru SVN or www.starwood.com or II - and while u r saying Starwood doesn't give the HOA anything for the units they 'take' they are also not charging the current owners for ALL the MFs of the unsold units at the resort..right.

That is how a points system works - a point is a point is a point - there is no discrimination. The smart buyer gets in at the lowest price point.

They turned in their TS weeks to get Marriott Reward Points and are staying at a Marriott Hotel - same as u can do with your Star-thingies

 

[Catazog]

Riverfront:
2bd LO 148,100, 95,700, 46,500
1bd 81,000, 51,700, 25,800
Studio 67,100, 44,000, 20,700

The Westin Riverfront hasn't been added to the Resorts page on MyStarCentral yet, so I don't have any details about the villas. But I wonder if the Studio will be like the Studios at the WKORVs -- truly just one room and not a smaller one bedroom with a small/galley kitchen. If so, this will be just about the only Studio outside of Maui (I may be missing one), and it isn't as attractive to me as the smaller one bedrooms since my husband tends to get up a lot earlier than I do on vacation and having the separate room is really valuable. Although I can exchange my SMV one-bedroom premium (44,000 SO) for the Westin Riverfront Studio in the same season, I don't think I ever will.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Isn't the definition of a studio - one room w/ a small living space and/or kitchenette (like at WKORV)? Are there some that have a separate areas that are private (other than sitting in the bathroom... )? WSJ studio's don't (except they have a balcony with heavy-weather doors).

 

[jerseygirl]

Isn't the definition of a studio - one room w/ a small living space and/or kitchenette (like at WKORV)? Are there some that have a separate areas that are private (other than sitting in the bathroom... )? WSJ studio's don't (except they have a balcony with heavy-weather doors).

Yes -- that is pretty much the definition of a studio. But one of the (only ) smart things Starwood did was build the vast majority of their lockoffs as two separate one-BRs -- a premium side and a deluxe side. It really helped differentiate them in the early years. I'm not a huge fan of the small side at Harborside (long and thin ... galley kitchen), but it's way better than a regular studio. There's still complete privacy for any guests sleeping on the sofabed, or for the early risers wave in the group.


Not sure why they broke the mold in Hawaii -- probably due to the cost of the land -- cutting corners where they could.

 

[pointsjunkie]

when i first bought at svv the staroption value was different than it is now the unit worth 81000 staroptions was originally worth 79000 and the unit worth 67100 was worth 65000. owners were upset because it was not easy to book a week at any of their other resorts so they equaled the playing field and increased the staroption values. very similar to the wsj problem.

the new chart is equal on all levels. any owner can now trade within the system and an equal unit within their staroption values.

the reason the new colorado summer weeks are at a higher value is because they are putting AC in all the units where the other older units do not have AC.so in my book they are definitely worth more.

i applaud starwood for listening to their owners and they made things equitable for the wsj owners and thus will open up more trades within the SVN.

i do wish they had included the fountains section and vistana beach club in the charts, i hope they amend it soon. vistana beach club is a great location.

 

[Catazog]

Isn't the definition of a studio - one room w/ a small living space and/or kitchenette (like at WKORV)? Are there some that have a separate areas that are private (other than sitting in the bathroom... )? WSJ studio's don't (except they have a balcony with heavy-weather doors).

You're right, DavidnRobin. I just hoped that the WRV Studio somehow had a small separate bedroom. Just wishful thinking!