NEW Info on Marriott/Westin/Sheraton Consolidated Product

[CPNY]

At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s.

The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side.

He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.

 

[vol_90]

At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s.

The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side.

He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.

Interesting as always and appreciate the update. I was told on Jan. 4th at a Marriott Grand Chateau update that there will be 2 separate trusts. Marriott points owners will not have direct access to Vistana properties and Vistana points owners will not have direct access to Marriott properties.

I was surprised but did not continue down this conversation piece in an effort to get out in the most efficient manner. What I did take this to mean is that there may be a product to bridge both systems (buy X points that allows access to both sets of properties with all existing points.) and if not we would still need to use Interval.

I am hoping this is not correct and my Marriott points can access Vistana properties in 2022.

All speculation for now.

 

[shorep]

That is the $1,000,000 question.

I notice, with some alarm, that it used to be the $64,000 question, it now has risen to the $1,000,000 questions, is this the effect that inflated timeshare prices are having on the economic front or is it just down to Vistana&Vidante sales tactics at presentations????

 

[dougp26364]

At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s.

The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side.

He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.

Interesting as always and appreciate the update. I was told on Jan. 4th at a Marriott Grand Chateau update that there will be 2 separate trusts. Marriott points owners will not have direct access to Vistana properties and Vistana points owners will not have direct access to Marriott properties.

I was surprised but did not continue down this conversation piece in an effort to get out in the most efficient manner. What I did take this to mean is that there may be a product to bridge both systems (buy X points that allows access to both sets of properties with all existing points.) and if not we would still need to use Interval.

I am hoping this is not correct and my Marriott points can access Vistana properties in 2022.

All speculation for now.

I have heard so many different stories from so many different salesmen that there is one thing I know for certain. The sales staff doesn’t have any more of a clue than anyone on TUG.

To be honest, it’s taken MVC so long without any discernible progress that it no longer matters to me what they do or don’t do.

 

[jmhpsu93]

I have heard so many different stories from so many different salesmen that there is one thing I know for certain. The sales staff doesn’t have any more of a clue than anyone on TUG.

To be honest, it’s taken MVC so long without any discernible progress that it no longer matters to me what they do or don’t do.

And because VAC is a publicly traded company they'll likely announce it at an investors' call when it's real. Sales people are usually the last to know. LOL

 

[Dean]

I have heard so many different stories from so many different salesmen that there is one thing I know for certain. The sales staff doesn’t have any more of a clue than anyone on TUG.

To be honest, it’s taken MVC so long without any discernible progress that it no longer matters to me what they do or don’t do.

While the product may change over time with all that's going on and the delay, I have it on good authority that some of the sales staff have been to training already (pre-Covid) for the new product.

 

[GregT]

At my vistana update yesterday I was told they know exactly what’s coming and when it’s coming, 1/2022. It will be an automatic conversion at the time of booking. MVC will use DP’s and if a vistana owner wants to book a Marriott their star options would be converted at 32:1 SO to DP’s.

The rep mentioned that the vistana unit had to be a retro unit (enrolled) in order to use as DP’s. The way to retro a resale with vistana is to spent $10,000 minimum. He said that an ownership that is eligible to be converted to bonvoy points would be able to be used to convert to DP’s for 13 mo booking. That’s how they would tell who is eligible on the vistana side.

He was talking in circles. Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 months, yet MVC and Sheraton flex owners will be able to book a Westin at 13mo. I asked “if MVC and SF can book a Westin at 13 mo using DP’s how the heck do Westin flex owners have priority at 12-8 mo”? A lot of wrong information came out of his lips, and i was able to call him out on some crafty spin, but at least he didn’t come at me with anything to buy.

I saw this also on the Starwood board. I do find the 32:1 ratio to be interesting -- I had earlier speculated on a 27:1 ratio but if it stays I think that will be a disincentive to Vistana owners to participate. A 2BR OF owner at WKORV, which is supposed to be modestly nicer than Marriott, doesn't even get enough DC Points to book into Maui OF (either new or old) and doesn't have enough to get a 2BR OV at Kauai or Oahu. They barely have enough to get into Ritz STT or Aruba OF units. I have always felt that Marriott skimmed its owners because they needed us to buy more points (which we did) to be able to use the system. A 32:1 does the same thing to Starwood owners and I think they are better off to stay in their existing point system (StarOptions).

From a purely Marriott owner perspective, getting 32 StarOptions for our 1 DC Points is a great exchange rate, and means we could go to Westin Princeville for 4,600 points. That's a great point value -- better than Waiohai or Kauai Lagoons, and is surprising to me. Similar for St. John, and aligns St. John more like Frenchman's Cove than Ritz. I always felt Frenchman's Cove was under-valued in the Marriott DC and Westin St. John may be as well. Very odd.

The final interesting thing is that, as speculated, only direct purchasers will be able to benefit from the overlay -- and there is a whole population of owners who have resale weeks that could really help to lubricate the exchange system. If only direct purchasers can participate, then they already have StarOptions and I think this will be a non-event. From a Marriott owner perspective, 32:1 benefits us, but I would rather see a more balanced exchange rate that gives both owners a desire to participate. We will see.

Interesting speculation of course.

Best,

Greg

 

[CPNY]

I saw this also on the Starwood board. I do find the 32:1 ratio to be interesting -- I had earlier speculated on a 27:1 ratio but if it stays I think that will be a disincentive to Vistana owners to participate. A 2BR OF owner at WKORV, which is supposed to be modestly nicer than Marriott, doesn't even get enough DC Points to book into Maui OF (either new or old) and doesn't have enough to get a 2BR OV at Kauai or Oahu. They barely have enough to get into Ritz STT or Aruba OF units. I have always felt that Marriott skimmed its owners because they needed us to buy more points (which we did) to be able to use the system. A 32:1 does the same thing to Starwood owners and I think they are better off to stay in their existing point system (StarOptions).

From a purely Marriott owner perspective, getting 32 StarOptions for our 1 DC Points is a great exchange rate, and means we could go to Westin Princeville for 4,600 points. That's a great point value -- better than Waiohai or Kauai Lagoons, and is surprising to me. Similar for St. John, and aligns St. John more like Frenchman's Cove than Ritz. I always felt Frenchman's Cove was under-valued in the Marriott DC and Westin St. John may be as well. Very odd.

The final interesting thing is that, as speculated, only direct purchasers will be able to benefit from the overlay -- and there is a whole population of owners who have resale weeks that could really help to lubricate the exchange system. If only direct purchasers can participate, then they already have StarOptions and I think this will be a non-event. From a Marriott owner perspective, 32:1 benefits us, but I would rather see a more balanced exchange rate that gives both owners a desire to participate. We will see.

Interesting speculation of course.

Best,

Greg

Can they change the VSN SO chart all together?

 

[CPNY]

Interesting as always and appreciate the update. I was told on Jan. 4th at a Marriott Grand Chateau update that there will be 2 separate trusts. Marriott points owners will not have direct access to Vistana properties and Vistana points owners will not have direct access to Marriott properties.

I was surprised but did not continue down this conversation piece in an effort to get out in the most efficient manner. What I did take this to mean is that there may be a product to bridge both systems (buy X points that allows access to both sets of properties with all existing points.) and if not we would still need to use Interval.

I am hoping this is not correct and my Marriott points can access Vistana properties in 2022.

All speculation for now.

One thing the rep said is that the VSN isn’t going anywhere. As long as I have what I have now with the limited availability as it is I’ll be fine. I’ll use II for Marriott stays in Orlando. That’s really the only place I’d stay at a Marriott (I don’t travel other places in the US). Maybe a unit at beach place towers could be fun

 

[rthib]

The final interesting thing is that, as speculated, only direct purchasers will be able to benefit from the overlay -- and there is a whole population of owners who have resale weeks that could really help to lubricate the exchange system. If only direct purchasers can participate, then they already have StarOptions and I think this will be a non-event.

Curious about this part. Since you can buy resale certain properties that include StarOptions wondering how those will work. Would think that MVCI would needs those points in the trust in order to make things work.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

So they are allegedly offering the privilege of 32:1 to DP points for $10,000+ investment and only offering this to non-resale. We don't trade our WKORV OF and would likely rent it out for profit or infrequently use Staroptions if we did not use. IMHO...even if we were not resale it sounds like a non-starter. Maybe some traders or IV owners would find value in this but using DPs in the expectation you could trade into an OF unit would be like finding 2 bdrm Disney in RCI - a unicorn.

 

[CPNY]

So they are allegedly offering the privilege of 32:1 to DP points for $10,000+ investment and only offering this to non-resale. We don't trade our WKORV OF and would likely rent it out for profit or infrequently use Staroptions if we did not use. IMHO...even if we were not resale it sounds like a non-starter. Maybe some traders or IV owners would find value in this but using DPs in the expectation you could trade into an OF unit would be like finding 2 bdrm Disney in RCI - a unicorn.

It’s 32:1 for developer purchases. If you retro a resale that would be eligible according to the rep. Basically the week you have needs to have the ability to convert to bonvoy points to be eligible. Only developer purchases resales that have been retro back into the program would be eligible. Of course this came from a sales guy who though banked SO were good at 6 months not 8 so.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I thought the difference between resale and developer was that developer sale can convert to Bonvoy and resale cannot. Am I missing a third category?

I wonder how many OF MOC Towers have enrolled in DPs and use them. I would imagine those are a unicorn as well unless MVC exercised ROFR and placed them into the trust. Are they a unicorn during peak season? I would imagine that most MOC owners would use or rent rather that use DP points to trade unless they were in a pinch.

 

[JIMinNC]

All the speculation based on sales spin is fun, but I go back to the only information we have that can be said to be actual facts - what Marriott Vacations Worldwide has said in their presentations to the investor community:

1) They plan to introduce a "Common Points Currency" for all brands first
2) They will eventually move to selling a "Common Points Product" across all of their brands

Plans can and do change, but as recently as December 2020, they were still talking about moving in this direction by 2022. See Post #7 in this thread.

 

[Mroze]

All the speculation based on sales spin is fun, but I go back to the only information we have that can be said to be actual facts - what Marriott Vacations Worldwide has said in their presentations to the investor community:

1) They plan to introduce a "Common Points Currency" for all brands first
2) They will eventually move to selling a "Common Points Product" across all of their brands

Plans can and do change, but as recently as December 2020, they were still talking about moving in this direction by 2022. See Post #7 in this thread.

This [Common-Currency] is why Marriott has been selling Destination-Points exclusively.
This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling Flex exclusively.

Having points systems [irrespective of the exchange rate] makes it easier to integrate.

As for the exchange ratio value of 32::1 it depends on what you own.

• If you own a Low-MF week [e.g. WLR or WKV] that accrues 148100-SO you will find it [4628-DCP] excellent value for the $1500+ in MF.
• If you own a High-MF week [e.g. WSJ or WKORVN] that accrues 148100 you will find it [4628-DCP] bad value for the $2500+ in MF.

 

[dioxide45]

This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling Flex exclusively.

But VIstana still doesn't have a common currency. They have Westin Flex, Aventuras, Sheraton Flex. multiple flex products at the WSJ and even Nanea. Even Nanea has separate flex products for Oceanfront Inventory and Resort View. IMO, Vistana really bungled up their product

 

[JIMinNC]

This [Common-Currency] is why Marriott has been selling Destination-Points exclusively.
This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling Flex exclusively.

But...Marriott has been selling Destinations Points exclusively now for over 10 years, long before the acquisition of ILG/Vistana. Vistana also began selling their various Flex Trust products exclusively years before the merger as well. Those products - DPs and the various Flex-type programs - are still separate currencies that they will have to rationalize/convert/integrate. How that consolidation will be structured is what we don't know, and what is being debated in this thread.

 

[JIMinNC]

As for the exchange ratio value of 32::1 it depends on what you own.

• If you own a Low-MF week [e.g. WLR or WKV] that accrues 148100-SO you will find it [4628-DCP] excellent value for the $1500+ in MF.
• If you own a High-MF week [e.g. WSJ or WKORVN] that accrues 148100 you will find it [4628-DCP] bad value for the $2500+ in MF.

Same as with Destination Points today - Trust DPs have a maintenance fee/point of $0.61. High point value "enrolled" weeks like summer Hilton Head or Ocean Front 2BR Maui can have cost per DP in the $0.30/pt to $0.50/pt range, and lower point value off-season weeks with lower DP allocations might have a per point annual fee cost of over $0.80/pt.

 

[controller1]

Can they change the VSN SO chart all together?

I believe they can. Several years ago Vistana changed the chart to give more StarOptions to owners of OceanFront at WKORV and WKORVN and thus require more StarOptions to rent when that view is available.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

This [Common-Currency] is why Marriott has been selling Destination-Points exclusively.
This is also why Vistana recently switched to selling Flex exclusively.

Having points systems [irrespective of the exchange rate] makes it easier to integrate.

As for the exchange ratio value of 32::1 it depends on what you own.

• If you own a Low-MF week [e.g. WLR or WKV] that accrues 148100-SO you will find it [4628-DCP] excellent value for the $1500+ in MF.
• If you own a High-MF week [e.g. WSJ or WKORVN] that accrues 148100 you will find it [4628-DCP] bad value for the $2500+ in MF.

WKORVN OF has 176000 points so at 32:1 it would be 5500 DP points for $2700 in MF or .49 per DP point. What can you rent in MVC with 5500 points?

 

[Ken555]

I believe they can. Several years ago Vistana changed the chart to give more StarOptions to owners of OceanFront at WKORV and WKORVN and thus require more StarOptions to rent when that view is available.

And let's not forget they changed Lagunamar SOs because too many people wouldn't buy (initially the 2BD was not 148k). They can definitely change SO valuation, or even eliminate the program altogether though that's not going to happen (if they did, there would be little reason for the "Club" which is why we pay our separate annual membership fee).

 

[mlilley221]

I just finished owner update 2/23 at Westin Lagunamar:

I was told as my current contracts allow access to the properties in the vistana network (with the mandatory SO's I bought resale), they WOULD NOT have access to the MVC network. Basically, let me know that those options are not considered "in the network" which I find interesting as mandatory SO's have almost all the benefits (except elite) so I would only maintain the access to the resorts I already have in vistana and nothing more, same with SO's for resort stays etc, that those are all in the contracts and cannot change. Went on how Marriot is VERY controlling of the resale market and doesn't offer owners of resale any perks etc.

But of course, if I purchase an additional 81,000 SO's (EOY) for $15k and a MF of $508 a year I would be able to bring 2 of my 6 contracts into "the network" I asked if I purchased this would they allow me to bring ALL my ownership into "the network" they said they could not for every $10k they could bring in 2 contracts. So I had them present me what it would take to bring everything into the network. 161k SO's EY for $33k then I could bring everything in. I passed but was trying to see what they were willing to do with their "covid special" pricing. basically same as what I had seen before.

It was a successful OU as I got in and out in less than 45 min for my $125

 

[dioxide45]

This is very possible, but never buy on a verbal promise. Unless any of this is in writing, I wouldn't count on any of it. Chaces are high that even Aventuras or any of the Flex programs may have to "re-up" in order to get in on the action.

You made the right decision!

 

[Mroze]

I just finished owner update 2/23 at Westin Lagunamar:

I was told as my current contracts allow access to the properties in the vistana network (with the mandatory SO's I bought resale), they WOULD NOT have access to the MVC network. Basically, let me know that those options are not considered "in the network" which I find interesting as mandatory SO's have almost all the benefits (except elite) so I would only maintain the access to the resorts I already have in vistana and nothing more, same with SO's for resort stays etc, that those are all in the contracts and cannot change. Went on how Marriot is VERY controlling of the resale market and doesn't offer owners of resale any perks etc.

But of course, if I purchase an additional 81,000 SO's (EOY) for $15k and a MF of $508 a year I would be able to bring 2 of my 6 contracts into "the network" I asked if I purchased this would they allow me to bring ALL my ownership into "the network" they said they could not for every $10k they could bring in 2 contracts. So I had them present me what it would take to bring everything into the network. 161k SO's EY for $33k then I could bring everything in. I passed but was trying to see what they were willing to do with their "covid special" pricing. basically same as what I had seen before.

It was a successful OU as I got in and out in less than 45 min for my $125

This is the same offer we were presented in DEC-2019.

We toured at Westin Los Cabos and were offered the following.
NOTE: The offer is not based on the Star-Options being enrolled. It's based on the #-Contracts.

• To enroll 1-Contract purchase $10K worth of Aventuras-Flex
• To enroll each Additional-Contract purchase an additional $5K of Aventuras-Flex

We had 5-EY WKV 2BR-PLATIUM [148100-SO each] resale weeks.
We enrolled 3 resale contracts by purchasing $20K worth of Aventuras-Flex [95700-SO EOY which is not good value considering the Price/SO or MF].
We enrolled 444,300-SO for $20K.

We only enrolled the minimum required to go from 3-STAR To 5-STAR Elite [wife gets Bonvoy Platinum] + we save on a few fees and better Banking-Dates.

If we wanted to enroll the 2 additional resale weeks it would cost us an additional $10K [$30K to enroll 5 x 148100 Contracts / 740500-SO].
In summary for $30K someone could go from No-Status to 5-STAR-Elite.
We did not want to inherit anymore Flex-Options due to the higher MF.

 

[mlilley221]

This is very possible, but never buy on a verbal promise. Unless any of this is in writing, I wouldn't count on any of it. Chaces are high that even Aventuras or any of the Flex programs may have to "re-up" in order to get in on the action.

You made the right decision!

Yeah I just don't see the benefits of being elite or bringing contracts into the network to be worth the 5 figure outlay. everyone has their own reasoning for purchasing or bringing contracts in but for me the current system and program works fine for my needs