[ MERGED ] Michigan family jailed in Mexico over timeshare dispute

[jp10558]

This is not what happened here though. Again, it’s the intent at the time they made the purchase that matters. They didn’t intend to dispute the transactions at the time of the purchase, that’s a thing they did much later after a contract dispute arose. That is the difference between criminal fraud and a civil case.

And in the news it seems like they're claiming the intent was the 2021 upgrade contract - but it seems to me like in court you can't just ignore the 2016-2021 purchases, payments, use, and upgrades all along the way that seem like quite the intent to NOT defraud anyone. And even so - the "nasty scheme" was to spend 1.4 million dollars plus MFs along the way to lull Palace into a sense of complacency so they could ... what, take back $100,000? This just seems like an unbelievable "criminal conspiracy". I mean that could be some dumb persons plan, but it just seems like no other fraud scam I've ever heard of.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I thought this too, but I'm left wondering how the laws work here.

This also seems reasonable to me - again it seems likely to me just because what the heck is the long game to defraud Palace of $100k after 7 years of spending over 1.4 million? Very strange as an argument.

Isn't this a different "crime"? Another reason to avoid Mexico if "ranting on the Internet" can lead to a jail stay. I wonder if you can get arrested if you leave a bad review of Palace?

The other thing that just confuses the heck out of me is - why does Palace need 6 months to gather evidence. What evidence could they be gathering they didn't have over the couple years leading up to this? And why would a private company be gathering anything for a criminal case brought by the government?

Excellent points. Your point about charges for $100k after the customer spent $1.4 million seems odd unless they are trying to make an example out of the buyer to chill other owners from walking or disputing.

IMHO...This still doesn't seem to rise to the level of 6 months in jail. Mexico is a country of laws. Flight risk is a valid issue but Palace could sue AMEX and press charges [in a civil court] out of their USA office. [updated based on @Fido Chuckwagon post below]

Will watch how this unfolds.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

and press charges out of their USA office.

In the US criminal charges are not brought by private companies, they are brought by the government. And no law enforcement agency or prosecutor's office in this country would bring a case like this.

 

[pedro47]

Will anything good come out of this case for timeshare owners in Mexico or for Americans who have purchased timeshares in Mexico ?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

In the US criminal charges are not brought by private companies, they are brought by the government. And no law enforcement agency or prosecutor's office in this country would bring a case like this.

Good point. I was thinking of Civil charges for Palace to get the money back from AMEX or the buyer. Anybody can sue in America, right?

Per your points, I believe they don't want to sue AMEX for recovery perhaps because it would cost much more than $100k for lawyers and/or they don't have a strong case. When I worked in Corp America we always were told that the company would not sue for any case less than $1 million because it is too expensive. This was in the 80s and 90s. It is probably $5 million now.

 

[pedro47]

If Palace loses this case, this is going to hurt timeshare tourism in Mexico, especially new timeshare sales with the all inclusive packages (food and drinks). IMHO.

 

[jbman]

This is not what happened here though. Again, it’s the intent at the time they made the purchase that matters. They didn’t intend to dispute the transactions at the time of the purchase, that’s a thing they did much later after a contract dispute arose. That is the difference between criminal fraud and a civil case.

I believe it is the intent when the false statement is made to the credit card company that is pertinent.

 

[jp10558]

Will anything good come out of this case for timeshare owners in Mexico or for Americans who have purchased timeshares in Mexico ?

I can't see how. Palace already has gotten all the negative outcomes I could see them getting, and all this shows is apparently you can't walk away from Mexican timeshares if you ever want to go back to Mexico.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

Why advise reporting the cards lost or stolen after charges? Just cancel the cards.

I think the difference is that if you close the account, the Credit Card company will allow charges to continue and bill you at least for a short period of time, particularly repeating charges.

If you report the card stolen or lost, they will usually stop all charges to the account under the old card number.

I work in fraud, but am not a lawyer i would view the Facebook posts recommending others also falsely report their cards as lost or stolen as crossing into fraud.

 

[jp10558]

I believe it is the intent when the false statement is made to the credit card company that is pertinent.

It would depend on what they said to the CC company, but even so it seems like that would be defrauding the credit card company not Palace. As they intended that there was a contract dispute and were not going to uphold their end of the contract while they felt Palace was not upholding their end.

 

[jbman]

It would depend on what they said to the CC company, but even so it seems like that would be defrauding the credit card company not Palace. As they intended that there was a contract dispute and were not going to uphold their end of the contract while they felt Palace was not upholding their end.

For a criminal case it does not matter, neither Palace or American Express would be parties, representatives from both would be witnesses, like @Fido Chuckwagon said, charges are brought by the government.

 

[jp10558]

For a criminal case it does not matter, neither Palace or American Express would be parties, representatives from both would be witnesses, like @Fido Chuckwagon said, charges are brought by the government.

I mean, it seems like it's relevant because if the government is claiming you defrauded the wrong person, they'd lose the case it would seem to me. Like the song "I shot the Sherriff but I did not shoot the Deputy" - the case for shooting the Deputy would hopefully find the defendant not guilty. I.e. the facts matter even to the government.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

If Palace loses this case, this is going to hurt timeshare tourism in Mexico, especially new timeshare sales with the all inclusive packages (food and drinks). IMHO.

Horse is out of the barn. The damage to Palace reputation and timeshare sales has been done by pushing for criminal charges and jailing tourists for 6 months capturing US-wide media attention. Striking fear into US tourists. Penny-wise dollar foolish.

 

[bnoble]

Please. No one outside of our little corner of the world is paying any attention to this at all.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Please. No one outside of our little corner of the world is paying any attention to this at all.

It is on big travel blogging sites and in the USA media. I never heard of this company until this - not even on TUG. Perhaps the portion of USA who never travel outside the US don't care but very visible for those that do travel and pay attention to such channels because it is so extreme.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Please. No one outside of our little corner of the world is paying any attention to this at all.

Disagree. I didn’t learn about this from Tug. In fact, I posted this on TUG (on the Buying/Selling Board) because I didn’t realize it had already been posted here. It was a top story on Drudge Report, its being picked up by national media including CNN, NBC News, and Fox News. It’s a pretty big story, and it is definitely damaging for the Mexico Timeshare industry.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

Horse is out of the barn. The damage to Palace reputation and timeshare sales has been done by pushing for criminal charges and jailing tourists for 6 months capturing US-wide media attention. Striking fear into US tourists. Penny-wise dollar foolish.

Completely agree on this.

My wife has been very reluctant to visit Mexico, but I have been suggesting it for the past year or two. This widespread coverage has really set my case back....

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@1Kflyerguy We visit Cabo every year and exchange into timeshares including Fiesta Americana (honest company AFAIK - we've never had an issue after 2 visits and I know several Tuggers who own there). Although not perfect, Cabo does not have these issues. We avoid presentations except from Hilton or Westin but never bought. Take her there and she will love it. Fabulous resorts and the staff are very warm and friendly.

I have always wanted to visit Cancun but now are rethinking based on this article and the one shared earlier in this thread about forcing NDAs upon hotel guests.

 

[jp10558]

@1Kflyerguy We visit Cabo every year and exchange into timeshares including Fiesta Americana (honest company AFAIK - we've never had an issue after 2 visits and I know several Tuggers who own there). Although not perfect, Cabo does not have these issues. We avoid presentations except from Hilton or Westin but never bought. Take her there and she will love it. Fabulous resorts and the staff are very warm and friendly.

I have always wanted to visit Cancun but now are rethinking based on this article and the one shared earlier in this thread about forcing NDAs upon hotel guests.

I was sort of interested in Cancun because I thought the flights might be shorter, but now I think I'm going back to looking at the Caribbean.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

If Palace loses this case, this is going to hurt timeshare tourism in Mexico

If the US Govt steps in, this case can somehow go away, with all sides sort of saving face, but
if this case goes to trial in Mexico, there is no way Palace can lose, because you are right.
The Mexican govt cannot be seen to have treated American "tourists" like this without having had an airtight CRIMINAL case.

I think it means nothing to me, really, because you No Way, Jose, could you get me to step inside a TS presentation in Mexico. And my wife? She'd break my kneecap before letting me go. She'd make me an offer I couldn't refuse.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

I have always wanted to visit Cancun

I think you should fight that urge. We went there & to Cozumel a few times way back before we moved to the West Coast. We went to Cabo for first time last Nov. Without details, I liked the specific place we stayed in Cancun for specific reasons that would not apply to many people. Overall though, I really had no urge to go back except as, maybe, "well nothing else to do". And from CA, the flights are much worse than to Cabo.
Cozumel was much better than Cancun, but as of a few yrs ago, I read that Cozumel has been invaded by day-tourists off cruise ships, killing it.
Cabo was better than either or those.
I've never been, but I would think Tulum is the place to go if you want to go to that area to see something different. The "something different" you'd see in Cancun is not something better,

 

[WaikikiFirst]

No one outside of our little corner of the world is paying any attention to this at all

This has all the elements for sensationalist coverage. Even if that were true, (which I doubt, but hey, I avoid most media, so I can't really say) I'd bet this snowballs into a real circus. You've got all the elements, incl "Who the heck are these people who spend 20% of their lives in all-inclusive Mexican resorts?" (Fill in theories about them)

 

[WorldT]

The’re a flight risk. They have no ties to Mexico other than their time share. They don’t have to be a threat to society. Mexico is trying to make sure they will be present for their court date.

I think a lot of us need to be mindful when we travel out of the country that we cannot apply US Law if issues arise.

Palace Resorts went to the authorities and based on what they presented to the authorities, a warrant was issued which was subsequently filed with Interpol. What kind of evidence did they present that convinced the authorities that a warrant was justified? If it was so good, why now give them 6 months to "gather evidence". If the evidence they presented was that good, why another 6 months. If it wasn't good, why the warrant? This just doesn't make any sense.

 

[dioxide45]

It's just so unclear from the Palace side what they're saying the intent was. Like, is there any evidence that in 2016 when they entered the contract they intended to defraud Palace 7ish years later?

I think there were several upgrades over the years. While I don't know where I read it, I understand that they may have bought additional time in order to fulfill the bachelor party when their bonus reservations were all cancelled. Then they disputed fees related to that last upgrade. I don't know where I saw this, so I may have to dig back through this thread and linked articles.

 

[dioxide45]

I wonder if Palace Resorts control the /r/PalaceResorts subreddit on Reddit. I see no mention of this story anywhere on there. Though, there is a thread in /r/TimeshareOwners. I tend not to read the /r/TimeshareOwners on Reddit too much. I have replied to some threads, but the main problem with Reddit is that the threads are exposed to a lot of people that don't own timeshare and know nothing about it other than "timeshare bad".