Maui, Ignorance Will Be Your Demise

[SmithOp]

I got a PM too, apparently he is reading the thread but does not like a discussion that fails to align with his agenda.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Passepartout]

Hmmm. Maybe he'll launch a Twitter attack. Do we know of anybody doing that when they feel slighted?

Oops. Sorry. My bad.

Jim

 

[Luanne]

OP, Storm'in, sent 2 private messages to me, borderline harassment, because of my responses. When I tried to reply, the system indicated that this account has been set not to receive pm. This person has in effect lost all my respect, or my estimate of the person's intelligence. If you got something to say, say it out on the thread and stop harassing responders via PMs.

I got two PMs as well. I didn't even bother to try responding. If I had I would have said that this is a message board for discussion. That is what we are doing.

 

[VacationForever]

I got two PMs as well. I didn't even bother to try responding. If I had I would have said that this is a message board for discussion. That is what we are doing.

That is what I did, asked OP to post his messages to us on the board. But my message had an error that he is not set up to receive PMs. I looked up the settings and my conclusion is that he only checked off to accept PMs from Administrators and Moderators, not from other TUGgers.

 

[Tamaradarann]

That is a lot of Taxes!!

Two bedroom Ocean Front owners at the Westin Kaanapali paid $1,170 in taxes on one week of ownership in 2016:

$105 for TAT taxes
$429 in property taxes
$636 additional property tax (re-assesment)

I didn't realize that the taxes on a timeshare week on Maui is that high. Except for my 3 BR in Orlando which has $219 in property taxes, my one and two bedroom timeshare property taxes are under $100. I don't have any TAT taxes or additional property taxes. With the operating expenses and reserve fee the total annual timeshare costs must be over $2000 for the 2 Bedroom!

 

[Tamaradarann]

Restaurants Spending and Local Elected Officials

Leaving my WKORV-OF unit empty as a tax protest would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

But not eating in restaurants, not buying excursions, not buying gifts and letting the Maui power-that-be know that in a concerted, organized fashion may make an impact. I am willing to spend "X" dollars on my Hawaii vacations, and if too much of "X" is excess property taxes, there is obviously less available for the other stuff.

I don't agree with having the taxes effect the tip you leave at restaurants since the waiters and waitresses work hard for a living, do not own the restaurant and may not even own property and pay property taxes. However, if a boycott could be established on a night when restaurants normally gets a crowd from timeshare people and becomes dead with the reason communicated that might get some attention.

Furthermore, I am not an owner in the Hawaiian Islands, however, a few years ago, at the urging of a timeshare property management representative that I was staying at, I communicated my negative thoughts to the local Senator and House member about the unfairness in not treating timeshare ownership as whole property ownership.

 

[GaryDouglas]

Cash Cow, aka Taxation without Representation

The Residential Tax Rate is $5.30
The Apartment Tax Rate is $6.00
The Commercial Tax Rate is $6.60
The Industrial Tax Rate is $6.69
The Agricultural Tax Rate is $5.66
The Conservation Tax Rate is $5.80
The Hotel and Resort Tax Rate is $8.71
The Time Share Tax Rate is $14.31
The Homeowner Tax Rate is $2.70

The disparity between Hotel and Time Share rates is noticeable at maintenance fee payment time but not insurmountable. For me it's the principle of the thing. Fair is fair, or in this case, unfair is unfair. This is how timeshare owners are appreciated every year, particularly during times of economic downturn. They come, rain or shine, use it of loose it. And they are spending money on transportation, food, drink and entertainment. They might curb their spending to some degree, but there is always money flowing. Contrast that to the Hotel Rate option during an economic downturn. As I remember in 2008, there were multiple years of lower double digit utilization. So the Time Share user dis-proportionally bails out everyone else.

The only thing that I think might turn this around is to start up a website to educate Maui time share users on the unfair tax situation. Also have an outreach to the businesses that time share users frequent and make them aware too. Then approach the County of Maui and show how the time share owners and business community are aware how unfair this all is. If they don't budge, then organize a boycott of food, drink and entertainment spending of one year. Just go to Costco that year and make your lack of spending felt. This would take a lot of work...

 

[easyrider]

The Residential Tax Rate is $5.30
The Apartment Tax Rate is $6.00
The Commercial Tax Rate is $6.60
The Industrial Tax Rate is $6.69
The Agricultural Tax Rate is $5.66
The Conservation Tax Rate is $5.80
The Hotel and Resort Tax Rate is $8.71
The Time Share Tax Rate is $14.31
The Homeowner Tax Rate is $2.70

The disparity between Hotel and Time Share rates is noticeable at maintenance fee payment time but not insurmountable. For me it's the principle of the thing. Fair is fair, or in this case, unfair is unfair. This is how timeshare owners are appreciated every year, particularly during times of economic downturn. They come, rain or shine, use it of loose it. And they are spending money on transportation, food, drink and entertainment. They might curb their spending to some degree, but there is always money flowing. Contrast that to the Hotel Rate option during an economic downturn. As I remember in 2008, there were multiple years of lower double digit utilization. So the Time Share user dis-proportionally bails out everyone else.

The only thing that I think might turn this around is to start up a website to educate Maui time share users on the unfair tax situation. Also have an outreach to the businesses that time share users frequent and make them aware too. Then approach the County of Maui and show how the time share owners and business community are aware how unfair this all is. If they don't budge, then organize a boycott of food, drink and entertainment spending of one year. Just go to Costco that year and make your lack of spending felt. This would take a lot of work...

You people with deeded ts weeks seem to be paying the most regarding Maui ts taxes. If Denise's tax quote is correct then these ts week owners are paying more in taxes than most of us in ts points owners for our entire week.

What is your entire ts cost just including mf and the tax ?

Bill

 

[vacationtime1]

You people with deeded ts weeks seem to be paying the most regarding Maui ts taxes. If Denise's tax quote is correct then these ts week owners are paying more in taxes than most of us in ts points owners for our entire week.

What is your entire ts cost just including mf and the tax ?

Bill

2bd units at WKORV are $2,265 (not including SVN fees). The deluxe units are about $800 more. WKORVN is about $400 more. Marriott and Hyatt are towards the lower end of that range for deeded weeks.

MF's for the points based systems are higher than that -- at least for enough points for Maui. Marriott's Maui Ocean Club will cost $2,300 - $4,500 for sufficient points to reserve a 2bd unit @ $0.50/point (# of points needed depends on view and week).

 

[DavidnRobin]

Denise's post included a recent one-time (hopefully) tax assessment (~$625 for OFD) that was billed last Aug for tax-change in the mid-2000s. The true tax rate is not that high, but it is still too high based on the unfair tax rate for TS.

As with any resort - if MF/Taxes increase too much and beyond affordability - Owners will default - and the impact will cause MFs to increase even more - with more Owners defaulting - vicious cycle...

Is this speculation? Partly - but this is what happened at WSJ-VGV that caused the HOA to be 1st to offer to take villas and resale them to prevent Owner defaulting and not paying MF.

The OP post was not well-written - too wordy and too much rambling - making it hard to read and comprehend. If a point cannot be made quickly, then time to rethink content. IMO

 

[DeniseM]

Hi Dave - I'm sorry if the number was incorrect - was your tax for your OFD unit $625? (Instead of $636.) I will go back and look at my sources.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Your number is correct
~ means approx. $625 - which is close enough to $636.
I was just making a point as to the tax rate vs. the tax bill sent a few months ago.

 

[rickandcindy23]

We pay $260 property tax at Hono Koa. Very high, IMHO.

 

[easyrider]

2bd units at WKORV are $2,265 (not including SVN fees). The deluxe units are about $800 more. WKORVN is about $400 more. Marriott and Hyatt are towards the lower end of that range for deeded weeks.

MF's for the points based systems are higher than that -- at least for enough points for Maui. Marriott's Maui Ocean Club will cost $2,300 - $4,500 for sufficient points to reserve a 2bd unit @ $0.50/point (# of points needed depends on view and week).

The mf price of the two bedroom Weston suite week in Lahaina is a bargain at $2265 compared to a hotel unit at this resort for over $800 a night. It is a very nice resort from the looks of their website and likely worth the costs considering the location in Lahaina and being built on the beach.

I doubt this higher tax is causing too many owners a problem in regards to being affordable or they would have bought something else.

Then again, affordable is somewhat subjective.

Bill

 

[DavidnRobin]

Taxes are billed within MFs at WKORV, the recent $636 tax assessment for a 2Bd LO Dlx was for 3 tax years (2005-2007?).
Beyond the $636 tax assessment, the MF for the 2Bd Dlx WKORV has almost doubled ($1623 to $3122) since 2005 - with same %increase applies for other villa types.
At some point (whether MF and/or taxes) - Owners will bail. I am sure VSN runs a Risk-Failure analysis and knows where that price point lays. I doubt Maui does, or cares... (thus, the rub)

 

[gcoleman]

How is value assessed?

Hi,

Not an owner on Maui, but I am an owner on O'ahu.

Just wondering how the value to be assessed is determined. If it is determined on the basis of the developer sale price, then the tax would be quite high indeed! On the other hand, if it is based on the ebay resale price it would be lower. If it were based on the potential sale at a bankruptcy auction, there would be a different tax again.

Perhaps the value is based on the future income stream of the property? (Like you might value a company you were considering buying...)

I've seen, in another thread, the opinion that 50% of the developer's sale price is to support the marketing and sales effort. Does the county have a right to participate in that fraction of the sale price?

Can anyone point me to where the property assessment might have been discussed?

Does knowing the answer to this question inform this discussion? Or am I missing something?

G

 

[easyrider]

Hi,

Not an owner on Maui, but I am an owner on O'ahu.

Just wondering how the value to be assessed is determined. If it is determined on the basis of the developer sale price, then the tax would be quite high indeed! On the other hand, if it is based on the ebay resale price it would be lower. If it were based on the potential sale at a bankruptcy auction, there would be a different tax again.

Perhaps the value is based on the future income stream of the property? (Like you might value a company you were considering buying...)

I've seen, in another thread, the opinion that 50% of the developer's sale price is to support the marketing and sales effort. Does the county have a right to participate in that fraction of the sale price?

Can anyone point me to where the property assessment might have been discussed?

Does knowing the answer to this question inform this discussion? Or am I missing something?

G

Each county is responsible for establishing the assessed value of all of the property in its jurisdiction. County Assessors Office is responsible for property valuations. County Commissioners are responsible for setting County tax rates and classifications. Cities use their city counsels to establish city tax rates. The States Commisioners Office set State tax.

Hawaii has the lowest State property tax rate at 0.28%.

I think what the deeded owners in Maui County are complaining about is the classification tax rate of the ts they own.

Bill

 

[LisaRex]

Acc to the Maui website, "Property is classified based upon its highest and best use."

http://www.co.maui.hi.us/755/Classification-for-Tax-Rate-Purposes

If you were to look over the Maui Property Tax records, you'd see that condos valuations seem to be based on their size and view.

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_alsearch.php