Marriotts new policy

[CMF]

Hmmm?

The thought did cross my mind that, if the intent is to chill secondary market sales, rumor and innuendo will be nearly as effective as the real thing. The only ones that will be wise to the rouse will be us Tuggers - a speck in Marriott's world.

Charles

 

[thinze3]

Perry,
I agree that rumors are just rumors, and I am not one to fall for rumors. I try to do due diligence first, which is why I have already emailed a couple of people at Marriott asking about this. But there comes a time when people should be smart about their decisions. Wouldn't you hate to buy two new NCV timeshares and find out that you had trade limitations 12 months later? Wouldn't you hate to then hear someone say to you, "You knew this was happening as it had been discussed for months?"

How do you suppose these rumors got started throughout the Marriott system? Did the guy in MVCI's home office in Florida email the guy in Hawaii who in turn emailed the guys in California and Aruba?

Your posts are usually thought provoking, as such, please give me your take on this.



To keep the OP's thread alive. Yes, it's a great deal. Buy both NCV units for $34K.
.

 

[AmyL4408]

I am not sure why you all think this would cause legal implications for Marriott.


You purchased a week stay at a particular resort, in which you can make reservations 12 months in advance. Nobody said that would change.


If they were to make an internal trading system, that only owners who purchased from developers could take adavantage of...... what exactly did they steal away?? Nothing!

They simply would be adding a benefit to those who bought direct, and I see no problem with that... Other than some pissed off jealous people on this board who wouldn't be able to cash in on the new system due to them having bought resales only.



True or not, it wouldn't take any of your owner rights away... No matter how you purchased your week.

 

[Icarus]

And you know this to be fact or are you just basing your judgement on this "other post" by another Tugger.

You know who posted the information because you can read like the rest of us, and I posted a link to the source not once, but twice in this thread. If you choose not to believe it or not to believe the source, that's your prerogative, but you should go directly to the source for that.

At least you are completely consistent with your negativity.

-David

 

[hipslo]

You purchased a week stay at a particular resort, in which you can make reservations 12 months in advance. Nobody said that would change.

I think you need to re-read the thread.

 

[CMF]

Uncertainty

I try to do due diligence first, which is why I have already emailed a couple of people at Marriott asking about this.
.

Much like the stock market, this Tugger hates uncertainty. I hope that many of us ask Marriott the same question to try and force the issue.

Charles

 

[suenmike32]

That's an interesting concept. Sometimes I wonder if salespeople actually start rumors…just to see where they go.
In any event, sales personnel that propagate statements regarding re-sales are really shooting themselves in the foot. I would think that the first thing out of any potential prospect's mouth would be to ask "why on earth I would buy from the developer, if in fact I'm going to be hurt should I decide to sell it" (unless of course I sold it to Marriott).
That might hurt just a wee bit also.

In that the salespeople seem to be using this as a tool…I would have to re-tool the statement and toss it right back at them.

This is starting to sound like a sequel to Ryan O'Neal's comment in Love Story…"Buying from Marriott means never having to say your sorry".

 

[thinze3]

...At least you are completely consistent with your negativity.

-David

Sorry, I am not negative toward Marriott at all. You obviously have not read any of my posts before this thread, nor would I have expected you to. I love Marriott timeshares! As a matter of fact I just traded my non-Marriott TS for a Marriott for my summertime '09 vacation. Hate to disappoint you but I am wanting to BUY more Marriott TS's not SELL. I just think that at this time, I would like to know if there is any truth to these rumors, that's all.

 

[divenski]

If it were me, I'd definitely buy the 2 weeks for the price of one, with no reservation. .... I think instead of allowing the salespeople to intimidate us and get frightened by spreading this rumor (and, who knows, maybe it is pervasive because some "smart" PR person wants to test the waters and see what impact this might have) we should counter by asking why we would ever want to purchase a Marriott timeshare in this case because it would adversely affect the resaleability of their product and thus negatively impact our "investment."

I agree, as the salesperson is hoping that the prospective buyer isn't looking at the long term picture and wondering how a future resale price of his investment would be affected by such a policy.

IMO, I doubt that Marriott could limit access to a home resort, but could limit access to other properties in a new internal exchange program. Starwood has such a system, see posts re Mandatory vs Voluntary, and guess what, the Voluntary properties, which don't have access to the internal exchange system, sell for a LOT less than the ones that do.

The bad news is that all new Starwood properties will be Voluntary, so there is a trend out there. For SVO, this distinction is part of the deed/CCCRs and can't be changed after the fact, so the hope should be that if MVCI follows suit, it would only affect resales of NEW properties which have the needed language in the docs.

 

[sdtugger]

Good grief; don't fall for the rumors.

...
If something does happen Marriott will grandfather in ALL owners at that instant. This you can bank on or there will be so many class action lawsuits that Marriott will be sued back to the stone age. That you can count on too.
...

OK. Since DaveM said that his understanding was the existing owners would be grandfathered, I think you are correct. But, the real question is what does that mean. If the rumored change includes a penalty for all future resale owners (as DaveM guessed), then everyone (retail and resale, even if grandfathered) will immediately lose resale value. That hurts and grandfathering is useless for that purpose.

A few days ago I offered part of one of my weeks to my father-in-law. He wanted more details. So, I told him about our Marriott weeks and the great trades and use we've made so far. He immediately wondered whether he should purchase a week too. What would you say to someone in that position today? If they buy now and then lose a huge percentage of their resale value next January, that would be a foolish purchase. But, if the rumors are true, they could lose the right to be grandfathered if they don't purchase before the grandfather date. My answer: I mentioned the rumors and explained that they were rumors. My father-in-law basically said maybe it would be better to wait . . . .

 

[Icarus]

Sorry, I am not negative toward Marriott at all. You obviously have not read any of my posts before this thread, nor would I have expected you to. I love Marriott timeshares! As a matter of fact I just traded my non-Marriott TS for a Marriott for my summertime '09 vacation. Hate to disappoint you but I am wanting to BUY more Marriott TS's not SELL. I just think that at this time, I would like to know if there is any truth to these rumors, that's all.

I've read many of your posts.

I'm glad we agree that we should be asking for more information about this.

-David

 

[PerryM]

Why worry, be happy....

OK. Since DaveM said that his understanding was the existing owners would be grandfathered, I think you are correct. But, the real question is what does that mean. If the rumored change includes a penalty for all future resale owners (as DaveM guessed), then everyone (retail and resale, even if grandfathered) will immediately lose resale value. That hurts and grandfathering is useless for that purpose.

A few days ago I offered part of one of my weeks to my father-in-law. He wanted more details. So, I told him about our Marriott weeks and the great trades and use we've made so far. He immediately wondered whether he should purchase a week too. What would you say to someone in that position today? If they buy now and then lose a huge percentage of their resale value next January, that would be a foolish purchase. But, if the rumors are true, they could lose the right to be grandfathered if they don't purchase before the grandfather date. My answer: I mentioned the rumors and explained that they were rumors. My father-in-law basically said maybe it would be better to wait . . . .

First I don’t believe Marriott would ever punish resale owners with a 6 month maximum reservation. It makes NO sense to me but sounds like something the salesreps would cook up at a bar.

The industry standard is 1 sale in 7 sales tours. I suspect with the average Marriott salesrep its 1 sale in 4/5 sales tours. The reps that make $250k+ its 1 sale in 1.5/2. These guys aren’t bothered with resales that much.

But, when you spend 90 min – 120 min with Ma and Pa and they say no and just want their free gift the temptation by the salesreps is to blame something but their own skills. Blame the economy, blame the weather, blame the damn resale market.

I would encourage folks who like Marriotts to buy Marriotts and ignore these unfounded rumors - they pop up ALL the time. I have no problems with folks who don’t own a timeshare to buy from the developer unless they have someone to lean on and ask questions who have done this before.

So just ignore the rumor of the month and learn how to exploit Marriott to the hilt.

 

[CMF]

And what bar would that be?

It makes NO sense to me but sounds like something the salesreps would cook up at a bar.

Perry, how do you account for the fact that salesmen are saying the same thing in California, Aruba, and Hawaii?

Charles

 

[JimIg23]

Salespeople talk also, there could be rumors about the new system within the sales circle and this was one of the ideas that were floated (or someone got it wrong and it still floated). I have not read my deed, so I dont know if they could do that to current resale owners, or if would they have to actually start changing new deeds to reflect resale changes.

 

[PerryM]

SMUG knows....

Perry, how do you account for the fact that salesmen are saying the same thing in California, Aruba, and Hawaii?

Charles

I have no doubt that the salesreps have their own TUG; maybe it's called SMUG: Simple Moron Users Group.

The last blabbermouths in the world the hot shots at Marriott would tell are the salesreps - all day long they talk and talk and talk....

It costs about $100 per year to have one of these sites. Maybe they eBayed some of the freebee goodies they give away to marks////customers to pay for the web site.

 

[CMF]

Funny.

I have no doubt that the salesreps have their own TUG; maybe it's called SMUG: Simple Morons User Group.

The last blabbermouths in the world the hot shots at Marriott would tell are the salesreps - all day long they talk and talk and talk....

It costs about $100 per year to have one of these sites. Maybe they eBayed some of the freebee goodies they give away to marks to pay for the web site.

To give this a grain of plausibility, a tugger would have stumbled across such a bbs on the net eons ago.

Charles

 

[CMF]

Point Counter Point

A few post have said that the reply to a sales rep statement to the effect that there will be restrictions on resale buyers would be something like "Then why would I buy something that I'll have a hard time selling?" or, "Why would I buy something that will loose value because of these restrictions?" But I'm thinking that Marriott may not voluntarily disclose this in the sales presentation. It may come up if and when the potential buyer brings up the subject of resales. But otherwise, the rep may be silent and the restriction will be buried in the paper work somewhere; and, I bet that many buyers don't read their contracts. This will hiding in the contract, like snake in the grass, waiting to bite folks when they try reserve their week, or sell it to a savvy buyer, who is aware of the restriction and is offering pennies on the dollar for the week.

Charles

 

[thinze3]

Boy, you guys are up bright and early. Happy New Year!

I really did send three emails about this to various Marriott people including my last salesman, who was actually a GOOD guy - no BS from him. But then again, he did know that I knew as much, if not more, about the Marriott system than he did. I do not expect to receive anything but indirect answers, because, even if they do know, most likely they can not and will not divulge.

I have one higher ranking contact in Marriott that I am contemplating asking. Don't want to put him in a situation, so I ahve to think a bit more about it.

I really am not all that concerned, because most likely this will apply only to future TS sales. Those will probably have something different written in thier contracts/deeds if any changes are made. imo

 

[PerryM]

It will pass like gas....

Timeshare salesreps don’t talk about resales. They talk about “Passing the timeshare to your heirs”, and this gets around talking about the other half of ownership – the selling part.

If Marriott would put a 6 month reservation on resales they will kill the resale market – I mean totally kill it. Why? To piss off ALL Marriott timeshare owners? That makes no sense at all.

Nope, this is just a wild rumor that will pass like gas – just you wait and see.

It will be replaced by another wild rumor – probably a better one spread around at the Marriott sales convention that is hosted for the top Marriott salesreps each year. You know they get together and swap rumors and tricks to get folks to buy from them and to plant the seed of doubt.

So I recommend that folks put this rumor in the same group as Space Aliens, Big Foot, The Bermuda Triangle, Global Warming….

P.S.

As an investor these kinds of rumors just have me fascinated. Folks are ready to make decisions based upon NO truth at all. I just marvel at how folks want to believe something that can’t be proven or is totally false but they want to believe it.

I’m a pilot and it just fascinates me and as an investor sometimes it's like a pilot who is flying blind in a snow storm. I can only trust what my instruments tell me what is happening and forget about what my body’s false signals say is happening.

Same here, Marriott would turn ALL their loyal owners into fierce enemies hell bent on revenge – that makes no sense at all.

 

[Dean]

I agree with Perry, it makes no sense for Marriott to do this (limit the reservation window for resales), and contractually I don't think they could, even with good lawyers. But they could, if they wanted, limit or prevent participation in any other program including an internal exchange program though I'm doubting that's a major risk as well. For those worried about consistency from different sales people, we've seen consistent incorrect information over the years that was wrong and seems somewhat coordinated. Things like no internal exchange or you couldn't use the Marriott desk at II.

 

[timeos2]

Maybe there is a plan - maybe not

Since many(most?)of the resorts are not owned by Marriott, it would be very surprising to me if Marriott has the right to make each resort treat their owners differently based on how the unit was purchased. I don't think the resort itself really cares how the unit was purchased as both direct and resale owners pay the same maintenance fees. I think legally, Marriott can't monkey around too much with owners at their own resort, but they can certainly exclude resale folks from certain exchange programs administered by Marriott, just like they exclude resale folks from the points exchange program.

This is a key. Since the Marriott buyer is getting only a single resort & not a system of multiple resorts like Diamond (Sunterra) and some others Marriott may be able to restrict use of non-home resorts without stepping on any legal issues. They would be fools to try to restrict HOME resort use based on retail/resale as the rights are basically carved in stone but they may not have any limitations once that week is being used for exchange elsewhere. Especially if the new internal system comes as an option & with an additional cost. Again look at Club Diamond for one way it could work.

 

[sdtugger]

I agree with Perry, it makes no sense for Marriott to do this (limit the reservation window for resales), and contractually I don't think they could, even with good lawyers. But they could, if they wanted, limit or prevent participation in any other program including an internal exchange program though I'm doubting that's a major risk as well. For those worried about consistency from different sales people, we've seen consistent incorrect information over the years that was wrong and seems somewhat coordinated. Things like no internal exchange or you couldn't use the Marriott desk at II.

I agree with Perry too. As I've stated elsewhere, changing the system so that ALL weeks are worth pennies on the dollar, is guaranteed to result in costly litigation. If resale weeks can only reserve at 6 months, then they would be worth the equivalent of a bronze or silver season week at each resort, and that means a drop in value of around 90%. And, by definition, every single week that ANY owner tried to resell to anyone other than Marriott would be a resale week.

I agree that Marriott could probably get away with selling weeks with the new system because most of their retail buyers are uninformed (otherwise they would be very unlikely to purchase retail). These same buyers would still be uninformed and would be very unlikely to be worrying about resale value (or even understand the concept). But, I don't think that would solve the problem. All it takes is an enterprising plaintiffs attorney making contact with all of the Marriott owners and explaining that Marriott is making their ownership worth 90% less. Result = huge lawsuit, huge legal fees, and I think a likely costly loss by Marriott.

Marriott is too smart for this. There are so many other things they can do that won't have this impact, but that will make retail weeks more attractive. An internal exchange would easily fit this bill and not have the impact on resale weeks that any reservation restriction would have. And, they could even create a new income stream by allowing resale owners to buy into the internal exchange system.

 

[Dave M]

My latest info....

The sales "rumor" about a six-month restriction on making reservations for owners of resale weeks is no longer a rumor. It comes from Marriott's highest levels. That six-month restriction is the most likely scenario. As I stated earlier, the change would likely grandfather from the new policy those resale weeks as of the date the new policy is announced or implemented.

I can't stress enough that no definitive policy has as yet been decided upon. There are still a number of issues being worked out. When? What are the details? Still being worked on. Ultimately, the actual change might look much different from this six-month proposal, but there will be a change.

However, Sales has been given the advance info that some change is coming so that they can respond to the question we might ask: "Why buy from Marriott when I can buy the same resale week for much less?"

I have posted a link to this in the OP of the other thread on this general topic.

 

[PerryM]

Shooting oneself in the foot....

My latest info....

The sales "rumor" about a six-month restriction on making reservations for owners of resale weeks is no longer a rumor. It comes from Marriott's highest levels. That six-month restriction is the most likely scenario. As I stated earlier, the change would likely grandfather from the new policy those resale weeks as of the date the new policy is announced or implemented.

I can't stress enough that no definitive policy has as yet been decided upon. There are still a number of issues being worked out. When? What are the details? Still being worked on. Ultimately, the actual change might look much different from this six-month proposal, but there will be a change.

However, Sales has been given the advance info that some change is coming so that they can respond to the question we might ask: "Why buy from Marriott when I can buy the same resale week for much less?"

I have posted a link to this in the OP of the other thread on this general topic.

Since I use II to exchange into Marriotts this would have little impact on my usage of Marriotts.

Let the carnage begin....probably massive class actions too. At least some folks will look forward to this; those lovable lawyers who will look out for us.

I still don't think a 6 month restriction will ever happen. I'll back it up with one of my bets - $25 to the Toys for Tots charity (In the name of TUG, not me) if Marriott does this in the next year. That's how confident I am that Marriott isn't about to shoot itself in the foot!

If anyone wants to see my bet - just pick a charity of your own...

 

[thinze3]

Thank you Dave.
I was begining to feel like the Lone Ranger by simply stating that there was just TOO MUCH smoke for there not to be fire.

Let's hope that Marriott's new policy is only going to affect those TS units which are currently still in Marriott's possession and not ours.
.