Marriott Vacations Worldwide 3Q Sales Decline; Stock Tanks

[Dean]

(and it needs to actually save money)

Or at least think they will save money.

 

[WBP]

 

[heathpack]

Maybe the problem is simply that they are pushing a bad product and they have reached the limit of selling folks on something expensive that doesn't make sense.

The old weeks model made sense but the points system is overpriced. They got greedy, plain and simple. They seem to continue to try to remove value and expect to be able to charge a premium for it.

And don't even get me started on what they did to the Hyatt system.

 

[RENTER]

Simple solution to this problem. Do what Wyndham did with the owner priority period. A limit on guest passes at popular resorts during popular dates.

Also consider putting a limit on the number of points an owner can own. People called me a commercial mega renter. But I never was. To have their VIP benefits I had to own a lot of points. I would never have
bought if I was told I could not rent.

To cover those costs, I had to rent often just to break even. I booked weekends because they were easier to rent often to locals. Some bought in.

Also, the owner priority period had no effect on me. I needed the VIP discounts to help cover the costs, but they did not kick in until 60 days before. So I took whatever was available which were the less popular resorts

 

[amycurl]

That one couple really gets around ! One quarter they’re in Charleston, the next in Nashville… And they’re not even MVC owners, since there’s no MVCs for them to stay in those places, yet!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[craigd]

FFS folks - it is not that hard. The "commercial renter" red herring is pure deflection that the smart money saw right through. The MF's have outpaced rental rates, the market for their securitized sketchy loans to new buyers has softened, and the smart money knows they are incredibly vulnerable to a class action based on theories of unjust enrichment via breach of fiduciary duty through thinly veiled/easily pierced alter egos, not to even mention SEC scrutiny of relationship between MVW and trusts that are not rolled into MVW financials. It was all easily seen in the cash flow from earlier reports.

 

[davidvel]

Maybe the problem is simply that they are pushing a bad product and they have reached the limit of selling folks on something expensive that doesn't make sense.

The old weeks model made sense but the points system is overpriced. They got greedy, plain and simple. They seem to continue to try to remove value and expect to be able to charge a premium for it.

And don't even get me started on what they did to the Hyatt system.

This 100%. Also as another posted noted, they have ridden the 10% * budget management fee for far too long, exponentially rising MFs as they spend. The weeks program is still an incredible deal for owners that can lock off, and especially those that are enrolled.

Points is a joke. They thought they could sell the smoke and mirrors you can go anywhere just buy 2,500 points (for $45,000 + $2K+MF each year) and you'll be in a 2BR oceanfront room in Maui in the new towers. (Yet it would take double that in $$ to do so if someone looked.)

Until people started looking for the reality and the internet showed them the picture. The points program is so sterile and verifiable as to what you need and how much it costs that it becomes simple math and no longer pictures and dreams of what a beautiful vacation might be.

 

[m61376]

While I also agree that the points system has questionable value, clearly there are many here who think it's great, so I guess for some there's great value. And there are ways to get good value, and perhaps that's what salespeople should focus on. For years they thrived on telling lies, or half truths at best, and sold to people who believed what they wanted to hear. But today's customer is savvier; they can attend a presentation and within half an hour have scoured the Internet to find out if things are true.

Instead of painting unrealistic pictures, they should focus on individual needs. For example, a young couple without children can benefit form studios at bargain rates, and can add to their ownership as their needs (and income) changes. Families needing larger accommodations can stretch their points with Sunday to Friday stays, or perhaps experience a different area in a hotel for the weekend for longer stays. Emphasize the cost savings of having kitchen facilities and grills; even breakfasts and bringing drinks to the pool saves hundreds. If you eat breakfast in and grill 2 nights of the week, a family of four offsets about half their MFs. Little kids- how nice to be able to have a separate room, a kitchen and laundry. The list goes on. Instead of playing the smoke and mirrors game, and hoping for gullible prey, they might actually be successful if they simplified their presentations to show how it can fit their needs, rather than creating the illusion they can go anywhere they want for a week in a 2 BR anytime they want to travel.

While personally I would have a hard time making a points purchase today, many of the same reasons we bought weeks when we did ring true today. The consensus generally was it's not an investment in the traditional sense of the word, but an investment in family, in the security of knowing that an annual trip was mostly paid for, the benefit of "since you have it you'll use it" and won't put off a vacation, etc.. The things that pull at heartstrings, rather than trying purely to make a case for dollars and cents savings, that's hard to justify alone with the points system.

I think the intangible advantages make a more cogent argument than trying to justify based on a purely mathematical (and illogical) cost analysis.

 

[heathpack]

I think the intangible advantages make a more cogent argument than trying to justify based on a purely mathematical (and illogical) cost analysis.

Except that it literally has to make mathematical sense because renting a place with a kitchen and washer dryer isn’t hard nowadays. You can try to sell all of those features but if I can rent a condo with all of those features for 75% the price per week without the complexities of ownership, then I’m probably not buying your timeshare product.

Their existing market is aging out and they went all in on squeezing every dram of profit from that pool. MVCI needs a huge reset of their mindset- instead of squeezing your owners more and more, return to a better value proposition. Watching MVCI double down ever harder on their truly awful Portfolio points system (Hyatt) is painful. The mindset is clearly “we’ll squeeze em so hard that they’ll relent and buy”. Then they are confused when consumers don’t buy. Hmm, I wonder why?

 

[Hindsite]

It seems pretty clear that international destinations are desired, but there must be reasons the various systems aren't growing them almost exclusively.

The reason is that the regulatory environment is more complex and not as congenial to the US corporate timeshare model, due to greater consumer protection and efforts by regulators to address historically questionable business practices, organised crime and fraud. MVW would need business partners in those areas, and they struggle to find them. They have a fractious relationship with at least one of the landowners in Europe.

There were many glorious plans for more resorts across Europe that never made it off the sales wish list, none of which have progressed in 20 years.

 

[tarkin79]

The Covid money-printing orgy is so evident on that market-cap chart above. It's consistent across many consumer discretionary categories. It broke a lot of business models because for a few years it felt like easy money for lots of companies. Now they have to adjust back to the reality of the resulting inflation and reversion to the mean.

The question I'm asking myself if whether to start loading up on the stock now because that $0.79 per share dividend (6.7% annualized). Can they maintain it?

If I buy about 400 shares, my MFs are paid for with dividends

 

[VacationForever]

The Covid money-printing orgy is so evident on that market-cap chart above. It's consistent across many consumer discretionary categories. It broke a lot of business models because for a few years it felt like easy money for lots of companies. Now they have to adjust back to the reality of the resulting inflation and reversion to the mean.

The question I'm asking myself if whether to start loading up on the stock now because that $0.79 per share dividend (6.7% annualized). Can they maintain it?

If I buy about 400 shares, my MFs are paid for with dividends

Many companies stop paying dividends when they are no longer profitable. Don't count on it paying a dividend. The short answer is no.

 

[tarkin79]

Many companies stop paying dividends when they are no longer profitable. Don't count on it paying a dividend. The short answer is no.

That's usually the death-knell of a public company. They're sitting on a pretty sizable amount of cash and continue to buy back shares. Dividend cutting is a really desperate option.

 

[suzannesimon]

While I also agree that the points system has questionable value, clearly there are many here who think it's great, so I guess for some there's great value. And there are ways to get good value, and perhaps that's what salespeople should focus on. For years they thrived on telling lies, or half truths at best, and sold to people who believed what they wanted to hear. But today's customer is savvier; they can attend a presentation and within half an hour have scoured the Internet to find out if things are true.

Instead of painting unrealistic pictures, they should focus on individual needs. For example, a young couple without children can benefit form studios at bargain rates, and can add to their ownership as their needs (and income) changes. Families needing larger accommodations can stretch their points with Sunday to Friday stays, or perhaps experience a different area in a hotel for the weekend for longer stays. Emphasize the cost savings of having kitchen facilities and grills; even breakfasts and bringing drinks to the pool saves hundreds. If you eat breakfast in and grill 2 nights of the week, a family of four offsets about half their MFs. Little kids- how nice to be able to have a separate room, a kitchen and laundry. The list goes on. Instead of playing the smoke and mirrors game, and hoping for gullible prey, they might actually be successful if they simplified their presentations to show how it can fit their needs, rather than creating the illusion they can go anywhere they want for a week in a 2 BR anytime they want to travel.

While personally I would have a hard time making a points purchase today, many of the same reasons we bought weeks when we did ring true today. The consensus generally was it's not an investment in the traditional sense of the word, but an investment in family, in the security of knowing that an annual trip was mostly paid for, the benefit of "since you have it you'll use it" and won't put off a vacation, etc.. The things that pull at heartstrings, rather than trying purely to make a case for dollars and cents savings, that's hard to justify alone with the points system.

I think the intangible advantages make a more cogent argument than trying to justify based on a purely mathematical (and illogical) cost analysis.

I think MVC could change their sales tactics and get back to stop the half truths and downright lies that they use during sales presentation. Are there any stats how many of their sales presentations are canceled or actual sales canceled during the rescission period? We see it all the time on TUG and Facebook when anyone mentions they just bought a timeshare and we all start yelling for them to cancel because the lies they were told were an abomination. MVC’s ethics are horrible. If they would honestly sell something to them that would work for their family with a little of education rolled in, the contracts might actually stick. If the buyer wants to book spring break every year, tell them what they need to do to get it. New owners quickly discover that it’s not like booking a hotel on Bonvoy anytime they want it. I’m wondering if Hilton owners experience the same thing.

 

[m61376]

I think MVC could change their sales tactics and get back to stop the half truths and downright lies that they use during sales presentation. Are there any stats how many of their sales presentations are canceled or actual sales canceled during the rescission period? We see it all the time on TUG and Facebook when anyone mentions they just bought a timeshare and we all start yelling for them to cancel because the lies they were told were an abomination. MVC’s ethics are horrible. If they would honestly sell something to them that would work for their family with a little of education rolled in, the contracts might actually stick. If the buyer wants to book spring break every year, tell them what they need to do to get it. New owners quickly discover that it’s not like booking a hotel on Bonvoy anytime they want it. I’m wondering if Hilton owners experience the same thing.

That's so true. And there are many, many people who are more comfortable buying from Marriott, and many who truly believe it's a better product if they buy directly. The vast majority of buyers aren't Tug educated. So it's often hard to convince people that what they bought is a bad purchase, and would be even harder to do so if they were actually told the truth. They're shooting themselves in the foot by constantly overselling with lies. If the salespeople believe it's a great product, and a decent value at least, then show people how it's valuable for them. Using your example abut Spring break, for example- telling them they might not get their first choice every year, but it's an opportunity to explore other places. Tell them even if they can't get or have enough points for a 2BR, how much better a 1BR is compared to the cost of a hotel room, etc.; there are ways to couch things positively without lying.

 

[sponger76]

I think MVC could change their sales tactics and get back to stop the half truths and downright lies that they use during sales presentation. Are there any stats how many of their sales presentations are canceled or actual sales canceled during the rescission period? We see it all the time on TUG and Facebook when anyone mentions they just bought a timeshare and we all start yelling for them to cancel because the lies they were told were an abomination. MVC’s ethics are horrible. If they would honestly sell something to them that would work for their family with a little of education rolled in, the contracts might actually stick. If the buyer wants to book spring break every year, tell them what they need to do to get it. New owners quickly discover that it’s not like booking a hotel on Bonvoy anytime they want it. I’m wondering if Hilton owners experience the same thing.

I don't think it's just an MVC issue, it's an industry-wide issue. And while it may not be to the exact same extent or in the exact same way, yes, Hilton owners experience a lot of similar issues. For HGVC (legacy Hilton timeshare system), the main differences from MVC are that HGVC still sells deeds attached to a specific resort, season and unit type, and that all deeds, resale or retail, have a points overlay so everybody has at least the option of using points at other HGVC resorts (or their own in a different season or for less than a week or a different size unit) instead of their deeded week. But especially for highly-desired resorts during the most popular weeks, as with pretty much all major timeshare systems they also have more demand than there is supply as there are more points sourced from lower demand resorts/seasons chasing high demand stays than the other way around.

 

[m61376]

The Covid money-printing orgy is so evident on that market-cap chart above. It's consistent across many consumer discretionary categories. It broke a lot of business models because for a few years it felt like easy money for lots of companies. Now they have to adjust back to the reality of the resulting inflation and reversion to the mean.

The question I'm asking myself if whether to start loading up on the stock now because that $0.79 per share dividend (6.7% annualized). Can they maintain it?

If I buy about 400 shares, my MFs are paid for with dividends

If only the dividends of 400 shares would cover the MFs

 

[dioxide45]

Are there any stats how many of their sales presentations are canceled or actual sales canceled during the rescission period?

ARDA has reported a industry wide metric of about 15% rescission rate.

 

[dioxide45]

Travel + Leisure, who owns Club Wyndham, reported a 13% increase in VPG and gross contract sales for Q3 2025. Marriott Vacations seems to be an outlier here in sales decline in the industry.

 

[dioxide45]

While I also agree that the points system has questionable value, clearly there are many here who think it's great, so I guess for some there's great value. And there are ways to get good value, and perhaps that's what salespeople should focus on. For years they thrived on telling lies, or half truths at best, and sold to people who believed what they wanted to hear. But today's customer is savvier; they can attend a presentation and within half an hour have scoured the Internet to find out if things are true.

I think most here that see value in the points system own enrolled weeks that have maintenance fee per point that is lower than that of Trust Points. They also didn't directly see a high buy-in cost like Trust Point buyers do today. Sure, they had an upfront purchase price but by the time enrollment rolled around that was already a sunk and forgotten cost.

I think points from enrolled weeks can be good and enrollment overall is a great value. It always seems that to get the best value out of timeshare, you really need to own the legacy products. Everything from Vistana Flex programs, Hilton Vacation Club Collection Points (DRI), Hyatt Portfolio Points and Marriott Abound Trust Points. In almost every case, the predecessor product is superior in terms of value.

 

[catbro]

MVC acknowledges that owners have the right to rent what they own and they are not proposing to crack down on those who sometimes rent what they own.

They are proposing to crack down on those who have turned their ownership into a business and either rent their owned units all the time, or accumulate ownerships from groups of owners and reserve and rent stays as a business. Commercial activity has always been prohibited in the ownership rules we all agreed to when we purchased.

They intend to crack down on the commercial operators, not on those of us who use our ownership but might rent something out now and then.

I agree that Sales has sometimes been overzealous in telling people they could buy something with the intent of renting it out. In actuality, the terms have never allowed you to rent your ownership out all the time; doing so is pretty clearly commercial use in my book. As with everything else, the written terms are the ones that govern, and anybody that relies on the verbal promises of a sales person and not on what's in the contract is likely to be disappointed, whether they're buying a timeshare, a car, or any other big-ticket item.

 

[TimGolobic]

I think an issue might be that some of the people operating in the rental space don't really own that much. They are mainly point broker who use points from hundreds, if not thousands, of owners. They are provided credentials to access the owner accounts and make reservations for the number of points they've agreed to rent for the owner.

This. There needs to be a big distinction with who is doing the "commercial activity". The broker is helping multiple owners just "cover their costs" as provided in just about every sales pitch. If the broker and the owner are the same person, that's different.

 

[davidvel]

If only the dividends of 400 shares would cover the MFs

400*$3.16=$1,264/yr. This would cover many people's MFs. However, so would any investment paying about 6%. But, VAC may continue to slide, and you'd lose that money.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/VAC/key-statistics/

 

[jmhpsu93]

400*$3.16=$1,264/yr. This would cover many people's MFs. However, so would any investment paying about 6%. But, VAC may continue to slide, and you'd lose that money.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/VAC/key-statistics/

$1264/year would cover what, what...about 1500 points? I think you're off by an order of magnitude.