Marriott PC Mountainside Resale - HELP

[Steamboat Bill]

I looked at both Marriotts SW and MS and guess what...I bought at the Westgate Resort in the Canyons....the units are nicer, easier to book, and I loved the Canyons better than PC to ski...we are only a short 5-10 minute drive to PC to visit the restaurants.

If you can not pay 100% cash....you are better renting as the interest rate on a $30k loan + MF will be higher than if you rent.

Westgate Park City is MUCH easier to book than Marriott as there are no tricks to play like the 13 months window...etc.

 

[Chase]

Marriott

Hi,

I own at the Summit Watch, and I have been able to easily get February weeks. Sundance week is difficult, but not impossible, to get even if you own only one unit. I pulled a Sundance week last year.

I have been able to trade a MSW studio for a 1BR Marriott Streamside at Vail, and a 2 BR at Grande Vista. My 2BR traded for a 2BR Maui during spring break too. I'd say that MSW is an excellent trader. You'll do even better at Mountainside.

Mike

Mike--

Assume the 1BR Streamside and 2BR were in Platinum/equivalent seasons?

 

[PerryM]

Just too expensive anymore...

Before anyone spends $33k for a resale Marriott you might want to consider renting at VRBO

Before $33k goes into a timeshare portfolio you should look at using the money to rent - this might be more flexible and generate just as good vacations. Put $33k into PayPal and at 5% interest and 25% taxes that equals $1,238. Throw in a $900 MF and you have $2,138 to spend anyway you want at about 500+ places around Park City.

We used to own a week 51 & 52 at MS and realized that we were just as happy staying at the Park Plaza which cost us $5,500 to buy for a Christmas/New Years week. We sold our MS weeks and did just that.

Forget about exchanging a $33k week – you would do just as well buying a Platinum Marriott for $8k or so. The MS is just too expensive to exchange in II. Locking it off and living in 1BR or studio units is a pain in the butt.

Folks fall in love with the idea of a ski in/out but the Park City Mountain Resort gets boring year after year. We love The Canyons and many folks love Deer Valley. Once you start to travel you don’t need the ski in/out anymore.

We hosted a ski club at the new WM located 15 miles from PC but 2 miles from the gondola at Deer Valley. You can stay in a 2BR for Christmas/New Years for just $7,500 and do it year after year. The 15 minute drive to PC might be worth the savings of $33,000 - $7,500 = $25,500 which would buy a nice Camry to drive around home for the next 10 years. The MF is $400.

I’ve come to the conclusion that expensive timeshares just aren’t worth it – there are just too many alternatives now days.

 

[hipslo]

Before $33k goes into a timeshare portfolio you should look at using the money to rent - this might be more flexible and generate just as good vacations. Put $33k into PayPal and at 5% interest and 25% taxes that equals $1,238. Throw in a $900 MF and you have $2,138 to spend anyway you want at about 500+ places around Park City.

While I cant disagree with your general premise (renting elsewhere in Park City may make more sense than spending 33k for a unit at MS), I dont think your numbers, or your analysis, are quite right when applied to MS. First, for me anyway, the federal and state combined tax rate is around 40%, not 25%, so the after tax yield on the 33k, at 5%, is only $990. 2007 MF are $820, not $900 (this of course will increase over time). So, the true equivalent dollar amount available for a rental would be $1810. Rentals for the better ski weeks at MS go for around $3200-3500, give or take, so owning would beat renting, at least at MS, using that analysis. As rental rates increase each year the difference would increase as well. And if there is even modest increase in the value of the MS week over time, if and when one ever sold the MS week, the difference would be greater still, another factor favoring owning over renting. Which is why I am an owner at MS. I realize that this is not the right approach for everyone, as renting is certainly more flexible, and less of a commitment, than owning, but it works for me.

I agree totally that it makes no sense to buy MS to trade - most every trade would be a trade down.

 

[hipslo]

Folks fall in love with the idea of a ski in/out but the Park City Mountain Resort gets boring year after year. We love The Canyons and many folks love Deer Valley. Once you start to travel you don’t need the ski in/out anymore.

For me, with three young children, ski in ski out is a MUST have, more important than size/ quality of units, etc. Many others apparently feel this way as well. As the sayings go, location, location, location, and you get what you pay for.

 

[ondeadlin]

If I absolutely had to have a top-quality, ski-in/ski-out property, I'd spend $15,000-$20,000 to a buy a resale Hyatt Platinum or Diamond week at either Key West or High Sierra Lodge.

It's a totally point-based system and you can get a 2BR unit at either the Hyatt in Beaver Creek, Breckenridge or - this is harder because it's a smaller property - Aspen.

All three properties are as nice (Breckenridge) or nicer (Beaver Creek and Aspen) than Mountainside.

Plus -- and this is a key for the original poster - because it's a point-based system, he can easily secure studios or 1BRs now, and use the remaining points for another vacation to the beach or somehwere else. You could actually probably get a studio ski week, and still have enough points left over to deposit a red 2BR into II and try for a Mountainside week the following year (and don't tell me you can't get a ski week without a Marriott, I've done it with an Eagle Point ski week, which is less valuable than a Hyatt).

Much better value than burning 33k on a Mountainside resale.

Plus you can actually get a full-strength beer.



Plenty of TUG info on Hyatt here:

http://www.tug2.net/advice/Hyatt.htm

 

[PerryM]

Short term and long term outlooks...

For me, with three young children, ski in ski out is a MUST have, more important than size/ quality of units, etc. Many others apparently feel this way as well. As the sayings go, location, location, location, and you get what you pay for.

Ohhh, those are words that have many meanings in the timeshare world. (In bold type)

In Dec of 2005 I exchanged into Christmas week at Marriott’s MountainSide AND Summit Watch. I got a Studio at MS and 2BR at SW. What unbelievable II exchanger did this? Why it was WorldMark; in many eyes the bottom of the barrel.

I got 3 exchanges that season to Park City (Week 51). 1 studio at MS and a studio AND 1BR at SW which I had Marriott merge into a 2BR.

I’m guessing but week 51 at each is about $65k from Marriott, 2 Marriott folks spent over a total of $100k to get those weeks and exchange them into II.

What did I pay? It cost me 8,000 WM credits for each studio and 9,000 WM credits for the 1BR. I had to fork over 25,000 WM credits that cost me 4¢ MF each or $1,000. SW's MF is now $900 and I guess MS is about the same.

What did I pay for the WM credits? I could have just bought 6,000 WM credits at 75¢ each = $4,500 and rented the remaining 19,000 credits at 7¢ each or $1,330 (Includes MF) from other WM owners who want to make a buck or two with unused credits.

So the phrase “As the sayings go, location, location, location, and you get what you pay for.” Has many meanings in the timeshare world.

I can’t argue with the convenience of a ski in/out. However, as the kids grow and get bored with PC Mountain Resort and want to go elsewhere that expensive MS week will cost dearly. And if you exchange in II, I might take your place with my WM credits and I can assure everyone I march up to that front desk at MS and SW with the largest grin in the room.

P.S.
I like SW much much better than MS. It's across the street from the town lift so the ski in/out is maybe 50' further away than MS. The units at SW are twice as nice as MS - you're in downtown PC and can walk to the restaurants and the bus terminal is 1 block away. SW does NOT have a ROFR like MS and you can snap up some unbelievable bargain weeks and NOT have Marriott step in and take the sale away from you.

 

[ondeadlin]

I can’t argue with the convenience of a ski in/out. However, as the kids grow and get bored with PC Mountain Resort and want to go elsewhere that expensive MS week will cost dearly. And if you exchange in II, I might take your place with my WM credits and I can assure everyone I march up to that front desk at MS and SW with the largest grin in the room.

Exactly, Perry.

I'm not a very religious man, but every time I check into Grand Timber Lodge or Mountainside or Summit Watch or Old Key West at Disney, I almost feel like I should pause for a moment and give thanks for those willing to pay developer prices (or, in this case $30,000-plus for a resale).

Learn how to work the system. Anyone can do it. You'll get what you want and end up much happier having spent a lot less money.

(Oh, and Perry, you cracked me up on the pets thread)

 

[floyddl]

There are lots of strategies and opinions on this subject. I fail to see how purchasing a prime ski week at a premier location for a cost that you will easily recoup when you decide to sell it and enjoying vacations there for what amounts to the maintenance fee every year (unless you have to finance it) is a bad deal. Yes, you can spend less and the opportunity cost of having an additional amount of money tied up is there but any way you spin it this is not a bad deal. If not being in the Marriott system and not owning an easily accessible resort that is ski in ski out is not important then you can do a lot better. If these thing are important then you will have a hard (not impossible) time finding a better situation.

Even if you own, renting rathter than trading can make a lot of sense. It is easier to find a good deal on a rental and rent your own week than it is to rely on getting an exchange. This is especially true when you are looking for a very high demand week to trade into.

 

[ondeadlin]

... for a cost that you will easily recoup when you decide to sell it ....

That's a pretty dangerous assumption to make in timesharing.

Yes, ski-in/ski-out properties are safer than most timeshares, but a good dip in the economy could easily mean that you're going to have to a loss on a 30k week for at least a few years.

And, people will probably laugh when I say this, but ... Park City is among the most vulnerable ski resorts in the U.S. to global warming. Very low elevation. It's possible that closing date will be a month earlier 20 years from now, and that conditions will deteriorate even sooner than that.

 

[hipslo]

Ohhh, those are words that have many meanings in the timeshare world. (In bold type)

In Dec of 2005 I exchanged into Christmas week at Marriott’s MountainSide AND Summit Watch. I got a Studio at MS and 2BR at SW. What unbelievable II exchanger did this? Why it was WorldMark; in many eyes the bottom of the barrel.

I got 3 exchanges that season to Park City (Week 51). 1 studio at MS and a studio AND 1BR at SW which I had Marriott merge into a 2BR.

I’m guessing but week 51 at each is about $65k from Marriott, 2 Marriott folks spent over a total of $100k to get those weeks and exchange them into II.

What did I pay? It cost me 8,000 WM credits for each studio and 9,000 WM credits for the 1BR. I had to fork over 25,000 WM credits that cost me 4¢ MF each or $1,000. SW's MF is now $900 and I guess MS is about the same.

What did I pay for the WM credits? I could have just bought 6,000 WM credits at 75¢ each = $4,500 and rented the remaining 19,000 credits at 7¢ each or $1,330 (Includes MF) from other WM owners who want to make a buck or two with unused credits.

So the phrase “As the sayings go, location, location, location, and you get what you pay for.” Has many meanings in the timeshare world.

I can’t argue with the convenience of a ski in/out. However, as the kids grow and get bored with PC Mountain Resort and want to go elsewhere that expensive MS week will cost dearly. And if you exchange in II, I might take your place with my WM credits and I can assure everyone I march up to that front desk at MS and SW with the largest grin in the room.

P.S.
I like SW much much better than MS. It's across the street from the town lift so the ski in/out is maybe 50' further away than MS. The units at SW are twice as nice as MS - you're in downtown PC and can walk to the restaurants and the bus terminal is 1 block away. SW does NOT have a ROFR like MS and you can snap up some unbelievable bargain weeks and NOT have Marriott step in and take the sale away from you.

As I said, I agree that I wouldnt buy at MS with the intention to trade, for the very reasons you cite. If you are able to reliably trade into MS and SW during the good ski weeks at little cost, more power to you, but I can assure you it wont be my unit that you occupy!

As far as SW, we looked into it but at least for now, and for several years, it doesnt work well for us, since our youngest would not be able to ride the town lift up and then ski down to the kids' ski school (he is 4), defeating the ski in ski out benefit. Though it is a very nice property and I do see the benefit of the in town location. I think there it comes down to a question of personal preference, hard to go wrong either way.

As far as the kids getting bored with PC mountain - I learned how to ski when I was 12 years old at a local spot in NY that had one lift and 2 slopes. Never even made it out west until I was in my early 20's. If my kids start complaining that PC mountain is too boring for them, it'll be time for a SERIOUS family discussion about values, and being thankful for what we do have in this life. IMHO (to borrow a phrase).

 

[PerryM]

25¢ bullets bring down big game...

The Frugal Gourmet was a great TV series that we watched. It showed you how to have 6-star meals for TV dinner prices.

That same philosophy can be used with timeshares. Sure you can plunk down $70k at MS or SW for a Platinum Plus week, and there’s no shame in doing that.

The challenge is to do the exact same thing for 1/10 the price – this is where your skills of preparing your timeshare portfolio allow you to rub shoulders with the $70k folks for just $7k and send the kids to college too boot.

I think most Tuggers would stand by and watch the happy faces of the new week 52 owners come marching out of the Marriott MS sales gallery and just grin. I don’t think I would flag the guy down and yell “Are you nuts?” I want folks to keep buying and supporting Marriott – just not me. This goes for resale too – I need someone at MS and SW to keep making those MFs (We own a Gold Summit Watch so I fork over $900 too) as an II exchanger I have grown accustomed to Marriott quality on a Frugal Gourmet budget.

Conclusion:
I think of myself as a hunter – stalking hard to get and super expensive timeshares and bagging them with a 25¢ bullet and a lot of skill.

OnDeadLin,

Thanks, I have high hopes for Gun Friendly timeshare resorts in the future

 

[hipslo]

And, people will probably laugh when I say this, but ... Park City is among the most vulnerable ski resorts in the U.S. to global warming. Very low elevation. It's possible that closing date will be a month earlier 20 years from now, and that conditions will deteriorate even sooner than that.

And all of the beachfront resorts will be under water.....

 

[seatrout]

Also

Being on very low elevation-( probably one of the lowest if not the lowest accessable ski area)- No altitude sickness for low elevation vacationer like me. When we go to Colorado -- the entire skiing party and all the kids get sick with headache and nausea. Even Wesgate in Park city give us some headache as you have to take the lift up to get to the base.
The town lift at SW is terrifying for any beginner and green level skier.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

For me, with three young children, ski in ski out is a MUST have, more important than size/ quality of units, etc. Many others apparently feel this way as well. As the sayings go, location, location, location, and you get what you pay for.

I have two kids 8yo and 11yo and ski-in/out is the #1 priority for me!

We used to own a condo at Beaver Run in Breckenridge and be able to ski home for a quick lunch break.

I think Marriott MS and SW are GREAT properties and represent good value to a family that wants skiing every year.

PerryM has truly mastered the system....but that may only be good for a FEW sleect people...if everyone on TUG tried to trade into MS or SW with WM or any other II property, there would be MANY dissapointed people.

The #1 advice is "Buy where you want to Stay"

The #2 advice is "Get a Good Deal or buy resale"

Notice that it is MORE important (IMHO) to buy where you want to stay than it is to get a good deal.....simply because you get a $500 timeshare and have MF of $300 does not necessarily make it a good deal.

Snow skiing timeshares represent a RARE timeshare commodity that necessatates people BUYING a ski week to GUARANTEE them a place to stay.

If you want to stay in outer mongolia and drive 30 minutes to the slope, fight for a parking spot, and drag all your gear (and kids gear)...go ahead and get a bargain....but if you want ski-in/out you are looking at about $30k for a purchase and about $900 MF.

If you can't afford to pay $30k with a check....then you should RENT as this is the best option.

 

[floyddl]

That's a pretty dangerous assumption to make in timesharing.

Yes, ski-in/ski-out properties are safer than most timeshares, but a good dip in the economy could easily mean that you're going to have to a loss on a 30k week for at least a few years.

And, people will probably laugh when I say this, but ... Park City is among the most vulnerable ski resorts in the U.S. to global warming. Very low elevation. It's possible that closing date will be a month earlier 20 years from now, and that conditions will deteriorate even sooner than that.

That is a risk that I am willing to take. While the resale values may suffer as a result of a shortened season the rental rates of the prime weeks will increase and I will be reserving them to rent. Likewise a few years of bad economy can be navigated safely with a good plan. Marriott is renting the Feb. and March weeks for $825 now. If you rent it for half of that you cover the maintenance fee and pocket $2000+. You only have to do that a few years to recoup any loss in value. Of course if you have a financial crisis and can't work the system you will be vulnerable.

 

[PerryM]

The Golden Goose lives in PC

It’s fun to take the sales tours at ski resorts – both fractionals (Timeshares and fractions) and whole ownership – you get the heart pumping.

As long as you compare $30k with alternatives you have done some of your homework. For cars:

That car, paid for by cash, last’s 10 years and will take the family on many a nice vacation and outing.

In Missouri, our son goes to college at MIZZOU and cost’s us $17k for the courses and fraternity charges per year. That $30k represents 2 years of college at a nice university.

Staying slopside is nice in PC – few timeshares let you do this. Hauling the family from 15 minutes away and parking at 8:30 AM in PC just isn’t that big of a deal.

Most of the folks who ski/snowboard in PC live in Salt Lake City – it’s just 25 minutes away to some very nice timeshares and condos. There are some condos on Hwy 80 which are great bargains and $30k would make a nice down payment.

So before succumbing to the idea of a “Gotta have a ski in/out” most of the folks skiing around you live 25 minutes away in Salt Lake City. This is one of the reasons real estate is weird in PC – it take us longer to get to an Outback Steak House in St Louis than to drive from Salt Lake City to the slopes of PC.

All I’m saying is that there are plenty of alternatives to the “Gotta have” mindset in PC.

To me, the exchanger, PC is a golden goose just waiting to be plucked. The two Marriotts there have oversaturated the timeshare market and folks are now exchanging their expensive ski weeks for other Marriotts. The 2 Marriotts are starting to get old and boring to the owners - they want something different.

 

[hipslo]

I have two kids 8yo and 11yo and ski-in/out is the #1 priority for me!

We used to own a condo at Beaver Run in Breckenridge and be able to ski home for a quick lunch break.

I think Marriott MS and SW are GREAT properties and represent good value to a family that wants skiing every year.

PerryM has truly mastered the system....but that may only be good for a FEW sleect people...if everyone on TUG tried to trade into MS or SW with WM or any other II property, there would be MANY dissapointed people.

The #1 advice is "Buy where you want to Stay"

The #2 advice is "Get a Good Deal or buy resale"

Notice that it is MORE important (IMHO) to buy where you want to stay than it is to get a good deal.....simply because you get a $500 timeshare and have MF of $300 does not necessarily make it a good deal.

Snow skiing timeshares represent a RARE timeshare commodity that necessatates people BUYING a ski week to GUARANTEE them a place to stay.

If you want to stay in outer mongolia and drive 30 minutes to the slope, fight for a parking spot, and drag all your gear (and kids gear)...go ahead and get a bargain....but if you want ski-in/out you are looking at about $30k for a purchase and about $900 MF.

If you can't afford to pay $30k with a check....then you should RENT as this is the best option.

Well said.

 

[ondeadlin]

Snow skiing timeshares represent a RARE timeshare commodity that necessatates people BUYING a ski week to GUARANTEE them a place to stay.

Bill,

I've also got 3 kids (my 6 y/o girl already skis blacks at Vail, it's such a great family sport), so I absolutely agree with you about how much easier it is. I've already got my ski weeks linked up for next year. Here's my itinerary:

--- Week before Christmas at Westgate Park City, 2BR unit, ski-in/ski-out. (Got it with a bonus week)

--- First week of Februrary at at Marriott Timber Lodge in Tahoe, 2BR unit, ski-in/ski-out. (Got it with a Marriott Gift of Time week that I bought for $850)

--- First week of April at Marriott's Residence in at Whistler, 2BR unit, ski-in/ski-out, as nice as any Marriott timeshare. Will use Marriott Rewards points, which can be purchased for .001 a point. Cost is about $1,800 if you bought the points (I earn 'em through work).

Now, the December week is obviously marginal (I'm just jonesing for some turns at that point), but it's a week that somebody else paid huge money for.

My overall point is that, no, you don't need to purchase a $30,000 ski week to get good ski-in/ski-out weeks.

And, even if that's the way you want to go, Hyatt points are SUCH a better value than Marriott. As high (or higher) quality, great ski options, and the flexibility to break up your stay into any size unit, or even go one day at a time.

 

[hipslo]

Staying slopside is nice in PC – few timeshares let you do this. /QUOTE]

At the end of the day, that will be the key to the long term value of those that do.

 

[hipslo]

Also

Being on very low elevation-( probably one of the lowest if not the lowest accessable ski area)- No altitude sickness for low elevation vacationer like me. When we go to Colorado -- the entire skiing party and all the kids get sick with headache and nausea. Even Wesgate in Park city give us some headache as you have to take the lift up to get to the base.
The town lift at SW is terrifying for any beginner and green level skier.

The lower altitude was an important factor for us as well, for the same reason. Not to mention the unrivaled accessability of Park City, via NS flights, from just about anywhere, compared with most other major ski resort areas - also a MAJOR factor for us hwhen traveling with three young children.

 

[Floridaski]

We own a Hyatt week in Key West and a Grand Cayman week that trades in RCI. We ALWAYS get the week we want and get exactly what we want in trades.

Week 11 2007, used 1300 Hyatt points for trade.
Grand Timber Lodge Breckenridge - 2 bedroom, sleeps 8
Still had enough Hyatt points for 2007 week long stay in Hyatt Key West and 4 day stay in Hyatt Naples. 2 1/2 weeks of vacation for one week of Hyatt points

Week 11 2008, traded Presidents week 2 bedroom Grand Cayman (RCI) for 2 bedroom, mountain view Whiski Jack Ironwood. Not ski in/ski out, but I understand that it is very nice and does not come up often.

Granted I do prepay MF and deposit up to 24 months out from travel dates. My son is in second grade and goes to a private school, so I know spring break will always be week 11 or 12 depending on when Easter falls. But, we are also skiers and the high rental rates is what prompted the first timeshare purchase. We love all the Hyatt ski properties, but I prefer to get more bang for my points with the trades. II has some beautiful resorts and my Grand Cayman week fills in with RCI for spots like Big Sky or Whistler. I personally like to go to different resorts, so it works for us.

If I was going to invest big bucks into resort property, I would purchase a condo as an investment. Granted actually owning the unit is much more work and usually results in red on your ledger. But, you can take a tax deduction for all your hard working trips to go out and "take care" of your investment. If you happen to hike or ski a little, I do not think the IRS is going to put you into jail! It all boils down to emotional investment or financial investment. You really cannot put a price tag on an "emotional investment" - I know 3 people who are frugal by nature and they have all made that emotional investment in ski property. They all admit it may not be their best investment, but all would do it all over again!

 

[msweaver]

Mike--

Assume the 1BR Streamside and 2BR were in Platinum/equivalent seasons?

Yes, Platinum ski week 1BR at Streamside, and 2RB Platinum at Grande Vista...

 

[Chase]

Mountainside

Wow...this thread took off today. Global warming even came up!


Thanks to all of you that have joined in the debate.


It was very helpful (I must say....though....I'm leaning more towards buying). I'm sure some will say I'm an idiot...but the math makes sense at least to this twisted head.

My question about trading was only related to the use of the lockoff as trading currency -- I recognize it would be silly to buy here to trade.

SLC is the easiest place to fly into with 3 young kids. Yes...ski in/out is important. We like the city/restaurants. We'll only be skiing once a year...so there is a premium for making it easy.

As for cars and tuitions....I've learned from reading a ton of posts on a lot of different bulletin boards in this group that Perry seems to have truly mastered the art of making one's timeshare dollar stetch to the greatest extent. He also appears to be one of the most knowledgable out there. His input has been great, and these are valid points given the three youngsters. At the end of the day I'm in the camp that the $30 or so it takes to buy in won't depreciate like the car -- ie it will still be there when I need to buy that car or tuition. I know economies turn -- but if/when they do this invest will be the least of my worries compared to what's currently sitting in mutual funds / etc.

I really do appreciate the great insight and will continue to read on.

Now that I've said this I'll duck while the posters of the last day or so take their shots.

Bill

 

[ondeadlin]

Bill,

I don't think anyone's going to criticize you. You took the time to do the research and decided what works for you. That's more than 99 percent of the folks out there IMO. Good luck with it!

Jim