Marriott Mountainside or Summit Watch

[abg1688]

We are thinking about purchasing a week (outside of Marriott) at Park City, UT, and currently debating whether to go for Mountainside (higher purchase price, lower maintenance fee) or Summit Watch (lower purchase price, higher maintenance fee). We've stayed at Mountainside 3 times and love the resort, but never stayed at Summit Watch. Any comments, recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

 

[vacationtime1]

Rent at Summit Watch before deciding. There are no wrong answers in this decision, but there are preferences. You are in a unique position to make the comparison before committing dollars.

Besides, the onsite research is fun by itself.

 

[jme]

As I have written in previous posts (forgive my redundancy), we’ve stayed in Park City 6 times running, back when our children were barely teens. And we do sincerely adore Park City. We stayed at both SW and MS equally, and despite all the really nice things about the ski-in, ski-out location of MS (and the wonderful resort itself), we actually grew to love SW more. Location, location, location. We loved being able to walk the town, just steps from our door, and the ability to be wherever we wanted to dine or shop, whatever, in mere minutes. We enjoyed the slightly bigger villas, too. After a long, hard skiing day, we liked the space and the layout to kick back and relax. You truly can’t go wrong with choosing either resort, but I too highly suggest trying both before a commitment. Best of luck.

 

[Valleykat]

jme makes some good points. We really like being so close to the lifts at Mountainside, but the Town Lift is very close to Summit Watch. The views I've experienced were better at Mountainside, but that probably depends on what you get. We've gotten lucky there. My husband prefers the hot tubs at Mountainside. They are pretty awesome. The rooms are more spacious at Summit Watch, again, in my experience. Not sure if that is the rule or not. It is nice to be able to walk to bars, stores and restaurants in downtown PC at Summit Watch. As I recall, skiing back to the town lift is not really for beginners in case that factors in. We own at Newport Coast and go there with trades or points so no help regarding fees.

 

[PsuFrh]

Is there anything to do in either location when it isn't ski season? Thinking of late spring into early fall.

 

[Superchief]

We like Park City in the summer for outdoor activities and hiking. Mountainside definitely has better resort facilities, including the pool and fitness center. There are also hiking trails adjacent to the resort.

 

[jme]

The PC Town Lift from Summit Watch to the slopes (at Mountainside) is not the only way to get up the mountain,
and frankly we used it only sparingly when staying at SW. The free shuttle buses which come along every few minutes
at the bus stop (only a short walk from SW) take only 5-6 minutes to get up to the slopes (from my recollection),
and actually it's far less strenuous to simply do that.
Relaxing in the bus seats, with skis safely and conveniently in the bus's outside racks, for a quick and warmer ride up
is certainly preferable to taking the cold ride in the lift (and heaven forbid you drop a pole or ski), imho.
The free usage of the comfortable town shuttle buses was always one of the reasons we loved Park City so much.
We used them to go to the grocery store, out to dinner at the few restaurants located farther out,
and we even used them to ride over to Deer Valley. What a great perk.

 

[Steve A]

We don’t ski and we don’t hike. We shop and eat in restaurants. So, it’s Summit Watch for us.

 

[Superchief]

The free shuttle buses which come along every few minutes
at the bus stop (only a short walk from SW) take only 5-6 minutes to get up to the slopes (from my recollection),
and actually it's far less strenuous to simply do that.
Relaxing in the bus seats, with skis safely and conveniently in the bus's outside racks, for a quick and warmer ride up
is certainly preferable to taking the cold ride in the lift (and heaven forbid you drop a pole or ski), imho.
The free usage of the comfortable town shuttle buses was always one of the reasons we loved Park City so much.
We used them to go to the grocery store, out to dinner at the few restaurants located farther out,
and we even used them to ride over to Deer Valley. What a great perk.

These free buses also run from the resort adjacent to Mountainside into town, so downtown access is easy and free. This is a nice option to avoid finding parking, as well as not worrying about driving after the wine with dinner. You also won't lose your parking space in the garage, which always seems to be at capacity at night.

 

[zentraveler]

We love Summit Watch, but we don't ski, so don't know about Mountainside. I did go look at it once and for a non-skiier it seemed to be a drive away from restaurant options, certainly compared to Summit Watch. I will say that in the summer off-season there is a very fun Sunday street party (Silly Sundays - early June to late September) with booths selling food and good, with music. All very close to Summit Watch.

We have not been there in late May, so for those of you who have, how is the weather then?

 

[rcdcowner557]

We just returned from staying at Summit Watch via a Redweek rental. It is our second time staying there (first time was via a Third Home exchange). We are done with our SF property that has descended into litigation with a future that is bleak from any angle given that it has now been hijacked entirely by MVW. Sure, the litigation will likely cover damages to date, but we have no interest in remaining in a property where we have zero control over the managing agent outside of litigation.

So, with that said, we are wondering whether any Summit Watch or Mountainside owners can tell us whether the true owners are still in control at either of those properties? We would be interested in purchasing a non-MVW resale week (floating platinum ski week) at either resort IF we had confidence that the true owners are in control and there are protections in place in the governing documents to keep it that way. Any insight much appreciated.

 

[Hindsite]

So, with that said, we are wondering whether any Summit Watch or Mountainside owners can tell us whether the true owners are still in control at either of those properties? We would be interested in purchasing a non-MVW resale week (floating platinum ski week) at either resort IF we had confidence that the true owners are in control and there are protections in place in the governing documents to keep it that way. Any insight much appreciated.

If you are buying into the MVW system you know what the implications are. If you can't reconcile yourself with how the brand operates, best not to proceed with further involvement with it, you just don't have control over what will happen in the future, even if the present seems to suit you.

 

[rcdcowner557]

If you are buying into the MVW system you know what the implications are. If you can't reconcile yourself with how the brand operates, best not to proceed with further involvement with it, you just don't have control over what will happen in the future, even if the present seems to suit you.

The thing is, if the true owners are in control, then it does not have to remain part of the MVW system. There are other operators out there with different models that owners are happy with. MVW is capable of providing excellent service at a reasonable price and will do so as long as there is oversight by the true owners. I understand their business model is to do away with that oversight by putting everything into the MVC Trust and taking over component site boards with trust votes, but prime properties are capable of avoiding that fate with the right mix of owners. It is not unlike the cooperative form of housing that can be excellent if you have a good board, but disastrous if shareholders are inattentive and apathetic. There is no getting around the fact that both Mountainside and Summit Watch are PRIME real estate that I would hope the true owners would take care to keep control of. Sometimes you have to fire your managing agent. It is a painful process, but one that all the RCC properties did where they were sufficiently sold. Bachelor Gulch and Jupiter are thriving under different management because there are real people who own the interests rather than the alter ego of the developer (which is what the Trust is). MVW cannot resist the moral hazard of self-dealing through the MVC Trust that it controls but tells the outside world is independent, which is why the component sites are all turning into hotels with costs that the owners have no way of controlling to MVW's benefit.

 

[davidvel]

We just returned from staying at Summit Watch via a Redweek rental. It is our second time staying there (first time was via a Third Home exchange). We are done with our SF property that has descended into litigation with a future that is bleak from any angle given that it has now been hijacked entirely by MVW. Sure, the litigation will likely cover damages to date, but we have no interest in remaining in a property where we have zero control over the managing agent outside of litigation.

So, with that said, we are wondering whether any Summit Watch or Mountainside owners can tell us whether the true owners are still in control at either of those properties? We would be interested in purchasing a non-MVW resale week (floating platinum ski week) at either resort IF we had confidence that the true owners are in control and there are protections in place in the governing documents to keep it that way. Any insight much appreciated.

What do you mean by "We would be interested in purchasing a non-MVW resale week"? Aren't all weeks at SW and MS all under the auspices of MVC management?

 

[rcdcowner557]

What do you mean by "We would be interested in purchasing a non-MVW resale week"? Aren't all weeks at SW and MS all under the auspices of MVC management?

Yes, they are all under current management contract with MVW. The salient issue is whether MVW owns the majority of the interests via the Trust. There are resales available on redweek that are non-MVW-owned, that are of course subject to MVW ROFR. The question I have is what percentage of the current ownership is MVW (Trust or Developer) vs. individuals? You cannot buy a stand-alone legacy week from MVW; they have some for sale that they will only sell with added points package. We are not interested in that. We would be interested in stand-alone legacy platinum ski week for which we would pay beyond ROFR threshold IF we had comfort in ownership mix and protections provided to non-developer owners in the governing documents. Like the Jackson Hole timeshare that just decided to dissolve, if you are sitting on prime real estate and you cannot find an operator for your property on terms that make sense for the actual owners, then there is comfort that you can all just decide to dissolve the thing and sell the real estate to the highest bidder. MVW is trying to steal the real estate through legacy owner apathy and attrition at most properties. That will be the fate of the bulk of properties under MVW management; only those sitting on prime real estate with continuing true owner control make sense for us. I am trying to figure out whether either Summit Watch or Mountainside fit that profile. It is fascinating to me that even true owners don't understand that the governing documents, and the essence of property ownership, is that the property is yours. You are in control of who you engage to manage it, and if you cannot come to terms with any manager, then you just sell the real estate. MVW has the bulk of component site boards for properties it manages thinking that the boards work for MVW rather than vice versa.

 

[VacationForever]

The thing is, if the true owners are in control, then it does not have to remain part of the MVW system. There are other operators out there with different models that owners are happy with. MVW is capable of providing excellent service at a reasonable price and will do so as long as there is oversight by the true owners. I understand their business model is to do away with that oversight by putting everything into the MVC Trust and taking over component site boards with trust votes, but prime properties are capable of avoiding that fate with the right mix of owners. It is not unlike the cooperative form of housing that can be excellent if you have a good board, but disastrous if shareholders are inattentive and apathetic. There is no getting around the fact that both Mountainside and Summit Watch are PRIME real estate that I would hope the true owners would take care to keep control of. Sometimes you have to fire your managing agent. It is a painful process, but one that all the RCC properties did where they were sufficiently sold. Bachelor Gulch and Jupiter are thriving under different management because there are real people who own the interests rather than the alter ego of the developer (which is what the Trust is). MVW cannot resist the moral hazard of self-dealing through the MVC Trust that it controls but tells the outside world is independent, which is why the component sites are all turning into hotels with costs that the owners have no way of controlling to MVW's benefit.

It's best that you don't buy ANY MVW properties. Majority of the owners WANT MVC to manage, which includes many MVC owner level perks. The moment a property is no longer managed by MVC, it loses tremendous value.

 

[rcdcowner557]

It's best that you don't buy ANY MVW properties. Majority of the owners WANT MVC to manage, which includes many MVC owner level perks. The moment a property is no longer managed by MVC, it loses tremendous value.

Not the majority of owners at those properties that terminated MVW contracts. Different types of owners. It is clear from the HOA cost per point that some properties still have owners of the ilk we'd want to partner with. Again, the question is not whether MVW can provide good service; we all know they can. The key is to make sure there is some check on the moral hazard of inflating the assessments. Once true owner oversight is gone, all bets are off. There is a reason maintenance costs on points are rising at a level that I doubt is sustainable. Time will tell, but we have no interest in points, but do have interest in prime real estate on a fractional ownership basis; under the right management, it is an excellent value that you cannot beat in any hotel or VRBO.

 

[davidvel]

Yes, they are all under current management contract with MVW. The salient issue is whether MVW owns the majority of the interests via the Trust. There are resales available on redweek that are non-MVW-owned, that are of course subject to MVW ROFR. The question I have is what percentage of the current ownership is MVW (Trust or Developer) vs. individuals? You cannot buy a stand-alone legacy week from MVW; they have some for sale that they will only sell with added points package. We are not interested in that. We would be interested in stand-alone legacy platinum ski week for which we would pay beyond ROFR threshold IF we had comfort in ownership mix and protections provided to non-developer owners in the governing documents. Like the Jackson Hole timeshare that just decided to dissolve, if you are sitting on prime real estate and you cannot find an operator for your property on terms that make sense for the actual owners, then there is comfort that you can all just decide to dissolve the thing and sell the real estate to the highest bidder. MVW is trying to steal the real estate through legacy owner apathy and attrition at most properties. That will be the fate of the bulk of properties under MVW management; only those sitting on prime real estate with continuing true owner control make sense for us. I am trying to figure out whether either Summit Watch or Mountainside fit that profile. It is fascinating to me that even true owners don't understand that the governing documents, and the essence of property ownership, is that the property is yours. You are in control of who you engage to manage it, and if you cannot come to terms with any manager, then you just sell the real estate. MVW has the bulk of component site boards for properties it manages thinking that the boards work for MVW rather than vice versa.

I understand all that, but this only highlights the confusion over what you said ("We would be interested in purchasing a non-MVW resale week.")

Given your concerns you would be better off if you (and others) bought an MVW (owned) resale week, not the opposite. This would dilute their ownership percentage at the resort. Of course you can't really do this other than in a bundle purchase (and not likely a good week at SW or MS.) So again, I do not understand why you keep referencing "a non-MVW resale week." It is just confusing.

While there are certainly exceptions (not many recent) about owners bouncing MVC as manager (and brand, and benefits), every day it is getting harder and harder for this to happen, by MVC's design. Anyone thinking they would buy into an MVC resort on the presumption that it will be separated from MVC management is not thinking rationally, no matter how bad they wish it would be.

 

[rcdcowner557]

The numbers definitively don't work in a bundle. I understand everything you and others have said; you have given me no new information, but I do appreciate the intent to be helpful and thank all for the input provided. However, nobody has answered the specific questions I asked.

 

[VacationForever]

What the heck is a non-MVW resale week? Every deed at Mountainside and Summit Watch is a MVC week, resale or otherwise. If you mean you want to buy resale instead of from MVC, then go buy resale. There isn't such a thing as a non-MVW resale week. Unlike some properties where there are fractionals which may not fall under the single week VOI model, I don't believe there are fractionals at either property.

 

[Fasttr]

According to a 2022 disclosure....

Summit Watch had 33.12 Units in the Trust out of 135 total Units so 24.5% Trust Owned
Mountainside had 34.69 Units in the Trust out of 182 total Units so 19.1% Trust Owned

The raw data from the disclosure.....

SUMMIT WATCH AT PARK CITY (Park City, Utah). The Summit Watch at Park City project
contains a total of 135 units located in 6 multi-story buildings. All units and amenities have been completed. The
amenities include three outdoor whirlpool spas, one indoor whirlpool spa, exercise room and one indoor/outdoor
swimming pool. The inventory in the project that has been committed to the Trust Plan is as follows:
UNITS FROM WHICH TIMESHARE INTERESTS ARE BEING PLACED IN THE PLAN:
Unit Number2
(Note: Component numbers are set forth in the
Component Site Chart provided to Purchasers)
Unit Type Number
of Baths
Occupancy Full
Kitchen
One thousand seven hundred twenty-two (1,722)
individual timeshare interests (which is the equivalent of
33.12 units (52 timeshare interests per unit)) contained in
multiple units throughout Component 29 have been
committed to the Trust Plan.

MOUNTAINSIDE (Park City, Utah). The MountainSide project contains a total of 182 units
located in 1 multi-story building. All units and amenities have been completed. The amenities include one outdoor
pool, six whirlpool spas, two steam rooms, two saunas and exercise room. The inventory in the project that has been
committed to the Trust Plan is as follows:
UNITS FROM WHICH TIMESHARE INTERESTS ARE BEING PLACED IN THE PLAN:
Unit Number2
(Note: Component numbers are set forth in the
Component Site Chart provided to Purchasers)
Unit Type Number
of Baths
Occupancy Full
Kitchen
One thousand eight hundred four (1,804) individual
timeshare interests (which is the equivalent of 34.69 units
(52 timeshare interests per unit)) contained in multiple
units throughout Component 24 have been committed to
the Trust Plan.

 

[dioxide45]

What the heck is a non-MVW resale week? Every deed at Mountainside and Summit Watch is a MVC week, resale or otherwise. If you mean you want to buy resale instead of from MVC, then go buy resale. There isn't such a thing as a non-MVW resale week. Unlike some properties where there are fractionals which may not fall under the single week VOI model, I don't believe there are fractionals at either property.

Perhaps they are referring to a resale week not bought from Marriott Vacation Club Resale Department?

 

[VacationForever]

Perhaps they are referring to a resale week not bought from Marriott Vacation Club Resale Department?

Maybe, or maybe it is referring to a resale week instead of trust points? Their post seems to imply that anything inside the trust is owned by MVW.

 

[davidvel]

The numbers definitively don't work in a bundle. I understand everything you and others have said; you have given me no new information, but I do appreciate the intent to be helpful and thank all for the input provided. However, nobody has answered the specific questions I asked.

I'm sorry no one can help you, but you may want to look into your own posts as to why. You have some very long winded comments, meandering among various topics. You keep saying non MVW week, but no one know what you mean by this. Is your "SF" week you are going to part with at GRC Tahoe?

You state "It is fascinating to me that even true owners don't understand that the governing documents, and the essence of property ownership, is that the property is yours. You are in control of who you engage to manage it, and if you cannot come to terms with any manager, then you just sell the real estate. MVW has the bulk of component site boards for properties it manages thinking that the boards work for MVW rather than vice versa."

Everyone here understands this, I'd bet, better than you. Many of the people that have responded are some of the most knowledgeable in the timeshare world. You need to narrow your comments and listen a bit more than you type.

Is this the question you are referring to? "So, with that said, we are wondering whether any Summit Watch or Mountainside owners can tell us whether the true owners are still in control at either of those properties?" If so, your question has technically been answered by @Fastr. However the percentage of ownership is not the real story. Every MVC resort managed by MVC is in control of MVC, until it is not. Period. This is simply how the management agreement is structured.

 

[dioxide45]

Maybe, or maybe it is referring to a resale week instead of trust points? Their post seems to imply that anything inside the trust is owned by MVW.

Perhaps. MVC never sells weeks out of the trust. So in that case there is no such thing as a MVC resale week.