Maintenance Fee Increase Comparisons

[youppi]

But aren't the trust point fees an overall average of all the fees at the resorts it owns? So they should go up in lockstep with the average increases at all the other resorts. I wonder if the initial fees for the trust points were bloated early on and don't need to increase as fast as the underlying weeks fees.

If they add new weeks in the trust, it may change the MF per point differently then if the trust stay the same.
Example:
A trust in 2021 have only 1 resorts in the trust. There are 10 low season weeks (1,000 pts per week) of this resort in the trust. MF per week is $1,000. The trust must pay 10x$1,000 = $10,000 to the HOA of this resort and the trust have 10x1,000=10,000 pts. So, the MF per point is $10,000/10,000pts= $1 per point.

In 2022, MF per week increases by 10% at this resort. So, MF = $1,000x1.10 = $1,100 per week.

If no new week are added to the trust then the trust must pay 10x$1,100=$11,000 to the HOA. The MF per point is $11,000/10,000pts=$1.10. So, the increase MF per point is the same 10% as the week.

If two more low season weeks (1,000 pts per week) are added to the trust then the trust will pay 12x$1,100=$13,200 to the HOA. The MF per point is $13,200/(10x1,000+2x1,000) = $1.10 per point. So, 10% increase too.

But If two peak season weeks (2,000 pts per week) are added in place of low season to the trust then the trust will pay 12x$1,100=$13,200 to the HOA. The MF per point is $13,200/(10x1,000+2x2,000) = $0.94 per point. So, the MF per point decreased by 6% even if the week MF increased by 10%.

 

[Fasttr]

If they add new weeks in the trust, it may change the MF per point differently then if the trust stay the same.
Example:
A trust in 2021 have only 1 resorts in the trust. There are 10 low season weeks (1,000 pts per week) of this resort in the trust. MF per week is $1,000. The trust must pay 10x$1,000 = $10,000 to the HOA of this resort and the trust have 10x1,000=10,000 pts. So, the MF per point is $10,000/10,000pts= $1 per point.

In 2022, MF per week increases by 10% at this resort. So, MF = $1,000x1.10 = $1,100 per week.

If no new week are added to the trust then the trust must pay 10x$1,100=$11,000 to the HOA. The MF per point is $11,000/10,000pts=$1.10. So, the increase MF per point is the same 10% as the week.

If two more low season weeks (1,000 pts per week) are added to the trust then the trust will pay 12x$1,100=$13,200 to the HOA. The MF per point is $13,200/(10x1,000+2x1,000) = $1.10 per point. So, 10% increase too.

But If two peak season weeks (2,000 pts per week) are added in place of low season to the trust then the trust will pay 12x$1,100=$13,200 to the HOA. The MF per point is $13,200/(10x1,000+2x2,000) = $0.94 per point. So, the MF per point decreased by 6% even if the week MF increased by 10%.

@SueDonJ ’s head just exploded. ;-)

 

[dioxide45]

If they add new weeks in the trust, it may change the MF per point differently then if the trust stay the same.
Example:
A trust in 2021 have only 1 resorts in the trust. There are 10 low season weeks (1,000 pts per week) of this resort in the trust. MF per week is $1,000. The trust must pay 10x$1,000 = $10,000 to the HOA of this resort and the trust have 10x1,000=10,000 pts. So, the MF per point is $10,000/10,000pts= $1 per point.

In 2022, MF per week increases by 10% at this resort. So, MF = $1,000x1.10 = $1,100 per week.

If no new week are added to the trust then the trust must pay 10x$1,100=$11,000 to the HOA. The MF per point is $11,000/10,000pts=$1.10. So, the increase MF per point is the same 10% as the week.

If two more low season weeks (1,000 pts per week) are added to the trust then the trust will pay 12x$1,100=$13,200 to the HOA. The MF per point is $13,200/(10x1,000+2x1,000) = $1.10 per point. So, 10% increase too.

But If two peak season weeks (2,000 pts per week) are added in place of low season to the trust then the trust will pay 12x$1,100=$13,200 to the HOA. The MF per point is $13,200/(10x1,000+2x2,000) = $0.94 per point. So, the MF per point decreased by 6% even if the week MF increased by 10%.

True, but the scale here is much higher. We are talking about hundreds of millions of points and tens of thousands of weeks. One would think the law of averages would start to kick in. Without a lot of work, we don't know exactly what is being added to the trust, but I would of course expect Marriott to be targeting higher season weeks. So this could make sense, but I don't know that a few thousand new weeks being added would really make that much difference.

 

[SueDonJ]

@SueDonJ ’s head just exploded. ;-)

There ought to be a law ...

 

[vol_90]

Increases? What you talkin bout Willis! From Bazzap's post on Phuket...

Marriott Phuket Beach Club

2022 Maintenance Fee Thai Baht 32783.82 (2021 - 34,509.30)
2022 Thai VAT Fee Thai Baht 2,294.87 (2021 - 2,415.65)
2022 Total Thai Baht 35,078.69 (2021 - 36,924.95)
A Reduction of 5%

And a very positive overall trend
2018 - THB 35,693 (+2.6%)
2019 - THB 36,925 (+3.45%)
2020 - THB 36,925 (0%)
2021 - THB 36,925 (0%)
2022 - THB 35,079 (-5%)

As an enrolled MPU owner very pleased with the work MVCI and the Advisory committee has done since becoming an owner in 2007 while maintaining one of the best MVCI resorts. Only downside has been not being able visit since March 2020 (alternates Ko Olina, Aruba Surf Club and Grand Chateau). Fingers crossed we are back in April 2022.....

Estimated cost per point for Platinum week in 2022 is ~$0.32 which was calculated by 3,270 points and (35,079 / 33.9 USD x-rate @12/2/21 = $1,035)

 

[youppi]

True, but the scale here is much higher. We are talking about hundreds of millions of points and tens of thousands of weeks. One would think the law of averages would start to kick in. Without a lot of work, we don't know exactly what is being added to the trust, but I would of course expect Marriott to be targeting higher season weeks. So this could make sense, but I don't know that a few thousand new weeks being added would really make that much difference.

You are right. So, I did a new example with 10 resorts, more weeks and more points.
See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rBujUQIReh-4nDmUgdpS20yhFehA-2cuomzWcXJ3c3Y/edit?usp=sharing
The first table has no new weeks.
The second table has new weeks (~1% more weeks) but same average number of point per new week added.
The third table has new weeks (~1% more weeks) with different average number of point (2x more points) per new week added.
You can make a copy of the spreadsheet and play with it.

 

[Retired2025 aka AlmostRetired]

In my head the statement "The comparison of the % MF increase year over year of the trust and the MF % increase of the underlying units have no real correlation as a percent” makes sense. The question becomes can I explain it . I will try.

Marriot must take the total dollars in MF costs of all the units in the trust (plus admin costs) and divide it by the number of trust points. A comparison gets convoluted because of the unequal and somewhat arbitrary assignment of points across resorts. The percent increase at a resort gets washed away and becomes a $ figure required to cover the increase MF of units in the resort. Add all the resorts together and you get the dollar increase the trust must cover. The percent each resort contributed again gets washed away.

The best way to show this is by example. A Grande Ocean Oceanfront unit has a 2022 MF of 1620 and increase of $70 over the 2021 MF for an increase of 4.5. The MF of an oceanside is the same. This 4.5 % is so much higher than the MF per point that went up only 2.9%. Now let us do a comparison to points just at the Grande Ocean for platinum. Lets say Marriott only has 1 oceanfront unit and 1 oceanside unit so it must finds a way to cover $140. It would take 5400 points for an MGO Ocean Front. Using .63 cents MF per point, the MF for getting into the Grande Ocean is 5400*.63 = 3400. If the MF on a point went up 2.9%, the MF $ amount in 2022 went up 3400*2.9% = $98.6 dollars. An Ocean side unit would take 4500 points so the MF would be 4500*.63= $2835. An increase of 2.9% per point would increase the $ amount (4500*.29% = $82. Marriott just raised $180. Some resorts/units Marriott makes money on the underlying MF and some it loses money but it all gets spread over all trust points to break even.

So again, all of the resorts have different MF's,, types of units. seasons, views... There is no relationship of point assignment to resorts. So the 2022 increase has to be all of the $ amount increases of the units in the trust divided by the points in the trust.

 

[vacationtime1]

[deleted]

 

[evonlef]

I think MVC corporate does have some influence on these increases. Human Resources appears to be the same for all of my resorts, so it appears to be a corporate driven shared expense. Owner Services and Human Resources have both increased more than inflation, and several resorts have greatly increased activities expense. Operating capital is their most recent money grab.
I've noticed that GM's who came from the hotel side of the business tend to be less concerned about limiting their spending to things that owners want. They care more about adding free activities and other non-essentials that will increase their resort ratings.

I agree there are many factors impacting MFs. Non-Trust maintenance fees are approved by local boards, which are usually dominated by MVCI employees, so a GM may care more about resort ratings. We own Newport Coast and Desert Springs Villas 1 and also visited Fords Colony, KoOlina, and Grand Chateau this year. Every one significantly reduced activities and housekeeping due to the Pandemic. Note: Desert Springs is reducing MF by 2.1% in 2022 due to a $535k surplus/ profit in 2020. However, MF/ points ratio is much higher as it is an older resort with higher replacement reserves. As a resort's gross income is primarily MFs, decreased personnel expenses should create across-the-board profits. AT Newport, the 2022 budget's highest increases are for housekeeping (17.2%) and insurance (10.4%). Housekeeping is probably a lower 2021 actual expense plus higher individual wages. Higher insurance is probably due to CA wildfires. IMHO there should not be a 2022 increase for MFs at Newport.

 

[VacationForever]

We own... and Desert Springs Villas 1... Note: Desert Springs is reducing MF by 2.1% in 2022 due to a $535k surplus/ profit in 2020.

I am confused by your post. I own at DSV I and MF is increasing by 2.6% instead of reduction of 2.1% as in your post.

 

[isisdave]

Marriott Waiohai owned week MF

Year Fee
2022 2248 0 again!! This triply shocked me last week
2021 2245 0! This shocked me last year
2020 2245 4.9%
2019 2140 3.0%
2018 2077

 

[Caseyblue]

Is there a listing or spreadsheet of all MVCI RESORT maintenance fees somewhere?

 

[DRH90277]

Marriott's Timber Lodge - We have one closed but stuck in the backlog of recording ownership at MVC - nearing 60 days. I don't have a bill for the maintenance fees and don't know the amount due. Does anyone know the amount of the 2022 maintenance fees for Timber Lodge?

Happy Holidays!

 

[dioxide45]

Marriott's Timber Lodge - We have one closed but stuck in the backlog of recording ownership at MVC - nearing 60 days. I don't have a bill for the maintenance fees and don't know the amount due. Does anyone know the amount of the 2022 maintenance fees for Timber Lodge?

Happy Holidays!

Marriott 2022 Maintenance Fees

* Please limit this thread to only the MF specifics and take discussions/commentary to the discussion boards. Thank you! :) * Owners, please report your Weeks MF's as they are billed (NOT proposed/estimated) in this format: Resort Name/Unit Size (include Season if it's a differential)...

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