Maintenance Fee Increase Comparisons

[Superchief]

I can now see the total maintenance fees in my account for my resorts. I find it interesting to compare the increases because they typically show which resorts are better managing owners' money. Ocean Pointe continues to have higher increases than my other resorts. I only included operating fees and reserves because those are the two primary expenses controlled by MVC. Property taxes aren't included

Ocean Pointe 6.1%
Oceana Palms 4.3%
Royal Palms -0.8%
Mountainside 3.3%
Canyon Villas 5.4%
Newport Coast 4.4%
Trust Points 2.9%

Ocean Pointe has had the highest increases almost every year. Oceana Palms also had high increases, but they have been more reasonable since Andy Miller moved to Ocean Pointe. My cost per DC point for Ocean Pointe was .03 lower than trust points in 2015, but now is equal to it. I've only received my detailed breakouts for Mountainside so far, but I am interested to see which other resorts have added the Operating Capital line item, and whether it varies by each resort.

Since the Trust Points take MF's across all resorts into consideration, I think it serves as a good benchmark for comparison. All of my resort increases except Royal Palms had greater increases than Trust Points.

 

[jme]

Thanks for that, Bill.
We travel in 4 timeshare systems, and yes, the maintenance fees increase annually.
We also do a lot of traveling to other resort hotels in "non-timeshare" locations, and those prices have exploded,
far beyond timeshare percentages,
maybe to the point that we either won't stay there, or look for off-season, less expensive stays there.
Nights in some previously ran from $325-400 before the pandemic, but now they're $450-500+ per night.
Even Marriott hotels have increased far beyond the timeshare increases.

 

[SueDonJ]

I can now see the total maintenance fees in my account for my resorts. I find it interesting to compare the increases ...

MATH!

I hate doing timeshare math but can appreciate why it's important, and the MF's discussions are always welcome. If you'd like you can feel free to do the annual percentage increase and cost/DC Point equations for my Weeks using these links to the MF's thread:

Barony Beach Club (3,725 DC Points)
SurfWatch (4,625 and 5,750 DC Points)

Thank you!

 

[Superchief]

Thanks for that, Bill.
We travel in 4 timeshare systems, and yes, the maintenance fees increase annually.
We also do a lot of traveling to other resort hotels in "non-timeshare" locations, and those prices have exploded,
far beyond timeshare percentages,
maybe to the point that we either won't stay there, or look for off-season, less expensive stays there.
Nights in some previously ran from $325-400 before the pandemic, but now they're $450-500+ per night.
Even Marriott hotels have increased far beyond the timeshare increases.

I agree. We seldom use hotels any more except enroute to a timeshare, and then we can utilize weekend discount rates of points. The Bonvoy points values have been dropping dramatically over the last few years, and the new 'no category' program will likely make things a lot worse. I'm planning to use my points up and only save a few for trips to national park areas.

Timeshares have saved our travel, but I'm concerned that some new GM's care more about all the buttons and whistles at the resorts rather than focusing on what is important to most owners who pay the MF's. The overall average increase over a 3-5 yr period should be no greater than the cost per DC point.

 

[Superchief]

MATH!

I hate doing timeshare math but can appreciate why it's important, and the MF's discussions are always welcome. If you'd like you can feel free to do the annual percentage increase and cost/DC Point equations for my Weeks using these links to the MF's thread:

Barony Beach Club (3,725 DC Points)
SurfWatch (4,625 and 5,750 DC Points)

Thank you!

That is a great idea, although the amount of points varies a lot by season. We own mostly gold seasons, so we get fewer points than platinum. Had I known this when I bought our weeks, I would have paid the premium for platinum. I think the %increase per point would likely be the same no matter the season.

 

[SueDonJ]

That is a great idea, although the amount of points varies a lot by season. We own mostly gold seasons, so we get fewer points than platinum. Had I known this when I bought our weeks, I would have paid the premium for platinum. I think the %increase per point would likely be the same no matter the season.

Yes, but what I'm asking is, do you want to DO the math for me using those links?

My Barony week is a Gold season, the two SW weeks are 3BR Gold and Plat. I know it makes me look like a moron but the percentage and per-point equations just don't stick in my brain from year-to-year. Doh!

 

[LUVourMarriotts]

MATH!
If you'd like you can feel free to do the annual percentage increase and cost/DC Point equations for my Weeks using these links to the MF's thread:

Barony Beach Club (3,725 DC Points)
SurfWatch (4,625 and 5,750 DC Points)

Thank you!

Looks like your resorts are providing great value per point.
Barony is $0.41/point
SW G is $0.39/point
SW P is $0.32/point (all rounded up)

 

[SueDonJ]

Looks like your resorts are providing great value per point.
Barony is $0.41/point
SW G is $0.39/point
SW P is $0.32/point (all rounded up)

Thank you!

 

[Steve Fatula]

MATH!

I hate doing timeshare math but can appreciate why it's important, and the MF's discussions are always welcome. If you'd like you can feel free to do the annual percentage increase and cost/DC Point equations for my Weeks using these links to the MF's thread:

Barony Beach Club (3,725 DC Points)
SurfWatch (4,625 and 5,750 DC Points)

Thank you!

Barony is 5.04% increase over 2021 with cost/dc point = 41.13c.

Surfwatch is 5.34% increase over 2021, cost/dc point for 4625 is 39.3c for 4625 and 31.6c for 5750.
Is that what you wanted?

 

[rickandcindy23]

Yes, but what I'm asking is, do you want to DO the math for me using those links?

My Barony week is a Gold season, the two SW weeks are 3BR Gold and Plat. I know it makes me look like a moron but the percentage and per-point equations just don't stick in my brain from year-to-year. Doh!

I don't like math either. Rick does all of that for me. I give him the numbers, he does the math. I get the numbers backward on the calculator and come up with crazy totals. Rick just laughs at me. I did get an A in college algebra. You would never know it by my math skills.

 

[SueDonJ]

Barony is 5.04% increase over 2021 with cost/dc point = 41.13c.

Surfwatch is 5.34% increase over 2021, cost/dc point for 4625 is 39.3c for 4625 and 31.6c for 5750.
Is that what you wanted?

Yes, thank you!

 

[SueDonJ]

I don't like math either. Rick does all of that for me. I give him the numbers, he does the math. I get the numbers backward on the calculator and come up with crazy totals. Rick just laughs at me. I did get an A in college algebra. You would never know it by my math skills.

Right?!

I use math all day long while sewing, all kinds of different equations related to pattern-making and fabric yardages and alterations, etc; after all these years most of it is second nature and happens organically so that I rarely second-guess myself. But outside of the sewing room, forget it! The simplest equations don't stick and calculators are the devil. It's a very good thing that I married a numbers man.

 

[Superchief]

Yes, but what I'm asking is, do you want to DO the math for me using those links?

My Barony week is a Gold season, the two SW weeks are 3BR Gold and Plat. I know it makes me look like a moron but the percentage and per-point equations just don't stick in my brain from year-to-year. Doh!

I prepared an Excel spreadsheet several years ago to track my annual maintenance fees. My current summary sheet is below. These include the property taxes, so the increases are slightly lower than what I posted earlier. These spreadsheets are pretty easy to prepare and update. I just wish I had all platinum weeks or could convert my weeks to a comparable number of trust points (without spending a lot). Trust point MF increases have been lower that most of my resorts. (Note: Mountainside and Canyon Villas are every other year, but cost per point is based on full year amount)>

Resort	DC Points	Total Fees	Cost/Pt.	% increase
2022​
Oceana Palms	2625​	$ 1,949.29	$ 0.74	3.1%​
Mountainside	2475​	$ 756.12	$ 0.61	3.2%​
Canyon Villas	1825​	$ 791.68	$ 0.87	4.9%​
Ocean Pointe	3050​	$ 1,862.09	$ 0.61	5.0%​
Newport Coast	2700​	$ 1,536.19	$ 0.57	4.1%​
Royal Palms	2125​	$ 1,425.01	$ 0.67	-1.9%​
DC Points	2500​	$ 1,555.20	$ 0.622	2.9%​
Annual DC Dues		$ 280.00		0.0%​

 

[dioxide45]

But aren't the trust point fees an overall average of all the fees at the resorts it owns? So they should go up in lockstep with the average increases at all the other resorts. I wonder if the initial fees for the trust points were bloated early on and don't need to increase as fast as the underlying weeks fees.

 

[Fasttr]

But aren't the trust point fees an overall average of all the fees at the resorts it owns? So they should go up in lockstep with the average increases at all the other resorts. I wonder if the initial fees for the trust points were bloated early on and don't need to increase as fast as the underlying weeks fees.

Perhaps the 2022 Trust MF’s budget was put together prior to the Operating Capital slush fund concept cooked up by the suits at MVC and at the 11th hour pushed down to the individual resorts to bake into their budgets.

 

[TravelTime]

I can now see the total maintenance fees in my account for my resorts. I find it interesting to compare the increases because they typically show which resorts are better managing owners' money. Ocean Pointe continues to have higher increases than my other resorts. I only included operating fees and reserves because those are the two primary expenses controlled by MVC. Property taxes aren't included

Ocean Pointe 6.1%
Oceana Palms 4.3%
Royal Palms -0.8%
Mountainside 3.3%
Canyon Villas 5.4%
Newport Coast 4.4%
Trust Points 2.9%

Ocean Pointe has had the highest increases almost every year. Oceana Palms also had high increases, but they have been more reasonable since Andy Miller moved to Ocean Pointe. My cost per DC point for Ocean Pointe was .03 lower than trust points in 2015, but now is equal to it. I've only received my detailed breakouts for Mountainside so far, but I am interested to see which other resorts have added the Operating Capital line item, and whether it varies by each resort.

Since the Trust Points take MF's across all resorts into consideration, I think it serves as a good benchmark for comparison. All of my resort increases except Royal Palms had greater increases than Trust Points.

Did your high increase resorts have lower starting points compared to the other resorts or trust points?

Trust points have pretty hefty MFs so I would expect more reasonable annual increases. Plus MVC is actively selling trust points for a mega-fortune so they may want to keep MF increases more reasonable as to not discourage new members from purchase and also since they get the hefty upfront fees right now, there is probably less of a financial need to milk people on MFs.

As someone else pointed out, aren‘t trust point increases an average of all the resorts?

How much influence or control does MVC have on what the individual resorts charge in MFs? I do not know this answer so honestly wanting to know.

 

[TravelTime]

Thanks for that, Bill.
We travel in 4 timeshare systems, and yes, the maintenance fees increase annually.
We also do a lot of traveling to other resort hotels in "non-timeshare" locations, and those prices have exploded,
far beyond timeshare percentages,
maybe to the point that we either won't stay there, or look for off-season, less expensive stays there.
Nights in some previously ran from $325-400 before the pandemic, but now they're $450-500+ per night.
Even Marriott hotels have increased far beyond the timeshare increases.

I think there are several reasons (and probably more) as to why travel prices have exploded:
1) General inflation is out of control.
2) The travel industry has lost so much money from Covid travel restrictions and shut downs that they need to charge more now to make up for the losses that have still continued in many locations.

I actually thought in 2020 that prices would have to go up on everything that had losses during the pandemic to make up for all the losses. I do not just mean travel. I mean everything. And that is exactly what is happening now. For example, if a plumber could not work for 18 months or business was so low that there were virtually no profits, what do you think he would need to do when demand picks up again to make up for all his losses?

 

[TravelTime]

I agree. We seldom use hotels any more except enroute to a timeshare, and then we can utilize weekend discount rates of points. The Bonvoy points values have been dropping dramatically over the last few years, and the new 'no category' program will likely make things a lot worse. I'm planning to use my points up and only save a few for trips to national park areas.

Timeshares have saved our travel, but I'm concerned that some new GM's care more about all the buttons and whistles at the resorts rather than focusing on what is important to most owners who pay the MF's. The overall average increase over a 3-5 yr period should be no greater than the cost per DC point.

Just wondering why you say that the overall average increase over a 3-5 yr period should be no greater than the cost per DC point?

There was a time when DC point increases in MFs exceeded the increase in annual MFs at many of the individual resorts. Back then, no one said the resorts should increase as much as the DC points.

As someone else pointed out, aren‘t trust point increases an average of all the resorts?

 

[TravelTime]

But aren't the trust point fees an overall average of all the fees at the resorts it owns? So they should go up in lockstep with the average increases at all the other resorts. I wonder if the initial fees for the trust points were bloated early on and don't need to increase as fast as the underlying weeks fees.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

 

[pedro47]

Does it costs more to manage a resort that is surrounded by the ocean with warmer temperatures for twelve (12) months every year?

 

[jmhpsu93]

Did your high increase resorts have lower starting points compared to the other resorts or trust points?

Trust points have pretty hefty MFs so I would expect more reasonable annual increases. Plus MVC is actively selling trust points for a mega-fortune so they may want to keep MF increases more reasonable as to not discourage new members from purchase and also since they get the hefty upfront fees right now, there is probably less of a financial need to milk people on MFs.

As someone else pointed out, aren‘t trust point increases an average of all the resorts?

How much influence or control does MVC have on what the individual resorts charge in MFs? I do not know this answer so honestly wanting to know.

Depends on the resort I suppose, but MVC owns lots of weeks at resorts so they make up a pretty large percentage of the voting body at a resort. Because of that influence, they also get board members elected that are favorable to MVC. So the answer is probably quite a bit in most cases.

 

[Superchief]

The trust MF's are supposed to be an average across all of the resorts, but most of my MVC resort MF's have increased at a higher rate. I noticed in the MF thread that most resorts have seen a 3% or lower increase. Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms, Mountainside, and Canyon Villas have had higher increases overall in the past 5 years. Ocean Pointe is the worst. I think MVC corporate does have some influence on these increases. Human Resources appears to be the same for all of my resorts, so it appears to be a corporate driven shared expense. Owner Services and Human Resources have both increased more than inflation, and several resorts have greatly increased activities expense. Operating capital is their most recent money grab.

I've noticed that there is no longer any explanation for the expense items increases in the available maintenance fee communications. Previously, any new item was explained, and reasons for unusual increases were also provided. I've noticed that GM's who came from the hotel side of the business tend to be less concerned about limiting their spending to things that owners want. They care more about adding free activities and other non-essentials that will increase their resort ratings.

 

[DRH90277]

This is exactly what I was thinking.

Maintenance fees (MF) for points are higher than for owned weeks. I would expect MF's for points are determined by (1) the aggregation of the MF's for weeks owned by the trust, (2) an overhead allocation for the points plan administration, (3) an amount to cover unreserved days as the points system is likely to have more gaps in use, and (4) a charge by the resorts for increased cleaning costs resulting from shorter stays. Overall, the points system should be expected to add layers of additional costs beyond those of the weeks system.

Comparison of maintenance fees resort to resort - I once inquired of Grand Chateau management about why the maintenance fees for Grand Chateau were so high in relation to Newport Coast. My view was that Grand Chateau should have lower grounds maintenance costs, lower building maintenance costs due to the high-rise block structures, and lower on-site recreational costs due to a small pool, few activities, etc. I was advised that costs were not much different; and I can't remember how he explained it away. Oh, one thing he did say that the elevators were very expensive to maintain and operate.

 

[VacationForever]

Comparison of maintenance fees resort to resort - I once inquired of Grand Chateau management about why the maintenance fees for Grand Chateau were so high in relation to Newport Coast. My view was that Grand Chateau should have lower grounds maintenance costs, lower building maintenance costs due to the high-rise block structures, and lower on-site recreational costs due to a small pool, few activities, etc. I was advised that costs were not much different; and I can't remember how he explained it away. Oh, one thing he did say that the elevators were very expensive to maintain and operate.

Total MF of Grand Chateau is actually a couple of hundred dollars lower than Newport Coast's. California timeshares property tax are billed separately which adds about $100 to the MF of Newport Coast, on top of the $100 difference between the 2 timeshares.

 

[Superchief]

Maintenance fees (MF) for points are higher than for owned weeks. I would expect MF's for points are determined by (1) the aggregation of the MF's for weeks owned by the trust, (2) an overhead allocation for the points plan administration, (3) an amount to cover unreserved days as the points system is likely to have more gaps in use, and (4) a charge by the resorts for increased cleaning costs resulting from shorter stays. Overall, the points system should be expected to add layers of additional costs beyond those of the weeks system.

The MF cost per DC point varies dramatically by resort and season owned. While most platinum weeks have a lower cost per point than the trust, gold and silver seasons receive much fewer points and have the same MF as a platinum week. Most of my resorts have a higher cost per point than the trust MF's. Additionally, MVC is not very transparent regarding how they pay for the extra resources needed due to shorter stays and the points system. I wouldn't be surprised if most of these costs are allocated to the resort MF's.