[LOCKED] Is getting VIP status worth by buying developer points?

[CO skier]

Btw. when i use my Wyndham Canterbury points in Pagosa Springs its less than $400 per week. However, some people pay 3x
My $187 montly , $2250 mf per year is only good for 1 week in Canterbury

In Club Wyndham and WorldMark, at least, the "expensive" weeks subsidize the "cheap" weeks. Your examples extrapolate the "cheapest" weeks to the entire system, and that distorts the reality.

WorldMark is very transparent about what it costs to run the whole WorldMark system. The average ownership is about 18,000 credits with 2023 maintenance fees of $1,883 -- about $0.105 per credit. The management fee is 11% -- about a penny per credit, and below the "average" timeshare management fee for the big players. Using $0.095/credit, a 1 bedroom blue season week may be had for 4,000 credits or $380. A red season 4 bedroom Presidential is 30,000 credits or $2,850.

The median unit maintenance fee is probably around 10,000 credits or $950 -- systemwide. That is not enough, and WorldMark owners are facing the first ever special assessment to plug the difference.

I don't think there is any timeshare in the universe with direct costs of $400/interval and fees of 3x that.

... is absolutely correct.

 

[4TimeAway]

I think he's saying its $1,200 a week in MF for a 1 Bedroom. So times 50 is $60,000 a year.

$1,200 for a week sounds high, unless its a nice place. Also that's $150/night. Most Hotel Rooms are higher.

 

[Richelle]

I think he's saying its $1,200 a week in MF for a 1 Bedroom. So times 50 is $60,000 a year.

$1,200 for a week sounds high, unless its a nice place. Also that's $150/night. Most Hotel Rooms are higher.

That’s fair. However he’s also forgetting what else those maintenance fees pay for. Insurance, landscaping, trash removal, property taxes, electric, water, internet, cable TV, etc bits not just housekeeping and the occasional repair.


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[jasavak]

I felt the same way, but most of the locations are in resort areas and have might higher overhead and even value.

I think a comparion would be to a Condo in a highrise. So take Waikiki. Some of the units objectively could be $1,00,000+ so divide by 50. You're at $20,000 value.

On the MF, many Condo have fees of $600/mo or more. So even jsut saying this is $150/week. Then you add in real estate taxes say $250/week. Then the cleaning, overhead of the "Hotel Operator" which includes quite bit say $250/week. Room upgrades and updates, the list is pretty endless. The main attaction is you can switch rooms, locations, etc.

Being a property owner is many ways is a much worse deal, unless you can count on inflation or a positive ROI based on interest rates. I've been lucky and good, so its fine, but its also not the same deal.

One other thought, is compared to what? If you didn't buy a timeshare would you stay in resort hotels? Most people the answer is no. We'd end up at Motel 6 for $100/night instead of 1 Bedroom resort.

BUY Resale, understand why you're buying, what you're buying and enjoy life. Timeshares are complicated Toys, that require us to play silly games.

I never had a complaint about paying $20,000 for a TS . Its a good value. The MF are a real problem that makes ownership and exit a losing strategy for 95% of TS. The amount they charge and the real costs are two different animals. I just returned from Wyndham Smokey mountains. I am pretty sure on an 800sf condo , they spend less than $300 a week on maintenance or $15,000 year. My costs are about $16,000 yearly on my mortgage free 2400 sf home. This includes taxes , HOA for pools and gardens , maintenance of fences , yards , water , trash , gas , electricity , internet , cable , roof depreciation , paint , carpet , outside sprinklers and A/C maintenance . The only difference is Wyndham spends 1 work hour per weekly maintenance and another $20 for weekly cleaning . Yeah , I know they charge $159 cleaning fee , but the maids clean 8 per day for $120 ($15 per unit) . $350 covers everything ,$450 would be plenty to cover with extra reserves and $1500 is what some people are paying. Do people actually believe a small mortgage free condo needs $75,000 per year in maintenance ?

 

[bnoble]

I don't know what you are smoking, but I would like some*.

The average owner is not paying $1500 per week. The average owner is paying about $600/week. A 1BR in peak season is 105K, and that's most of the year, but there are other years when it is lower. MFs are about $6/K. Even at $650, that's not that far off from your guess of $450, and you also completely ignore the fact that everything inside the condo also has to be paid for out of that budget--including replacing broken furniture, refreshing it, painting, etc. etc. etc.

I get you have an axe to grind, but you are off base, and by a lot. Since I don't expect you to stop beating this drum, despite the fact that you are wrong, I will just put you on ignore instead, so feel free to have the last word.

-----
*: Actually, weed is legal here in Michigan, so I don't really need to get any from you.

 

[4TimeAway]

I guess is comes down to compared to what?
Commercial Operations are always less efficient that individuals with personal profit motives and/or who are handy.

A hotel would be MF or greater and the spaces are less comfortable for more than 1 person. I also think the MF you are quoting is a 2 Bedroom, but sure your home probably is also.

If you've operated a business you know what you pay people is not what you must charge. A plumber pays say $40/hr but bills at $200. Sure the owenr makes some money, but the $15,000 a year for the truck has to be paid and the drive time, the vacation time, sick time, overtime, taxes, health insurance, etc. Hopefully the owner makes a few bucks also.

Operating profit margin of the hotel and tourism industry worldwide seems to be about 25% for Summer and lets say 15% for the others. That's at actual charges collected. I don't think the fees of 10% or so are outrageous for operating/managing a TimeShare business. Maybe they have higher functional occupancy rates as the MFs are basically prepaid rent, but I don't think that is your concern.

Personally, I compare the luxury of TS travel on a cost basis to camping in tent. If only my wife thought that was the same as being in a 2 bedroom in Hawaii with fresh linens, pillows and view.

 

[jasavak]

That’s fair. However he’s also forgetting what else those maintenance fees pay for. Insurance, landscaping, trash removal, property taxes, electric, water, internet, cable TV, etc bits not just housekeeping and the occasional repair.


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No , I took everything into account . You actually believe it takes $60,000 a year to maintain an 800 sf condo ? They spend less than $15,000 in yearly maintenance. They pay $20 a week to the cleaning crew and another $20 a week maintenance workers. Total is less than $350 per week

 

[jasavak]

Who in the world is spending $60,000 on Maintenace fees for a 1 bedroom? Where are you getting, they only pay $10 a unit. That doesn't even cover the cost of supplies and salaries. Often, those housekeeping employees are employees of the company contracted to provide cleaning. I guarantee they are paying that company more than $10 a unit. I am not sure where your math is coming from but it's totally bogus. Also, you forgot about insurance premiums, property taxes, etc for that resort. TS maintenance fees pay for those too.

You're comparing a small hotel with major resorts that pay for more than just cleaning with those maintenance fees. The maintenance fees are not decided by Wyndham. They are decided by the HOAs that are not-for profit. TS are worthless cash wise, because there is way more supply than demand. Wyndham is not the only timeshare company with contracts on the resale market. They compete with other TS systems big and small.

Just for comparison purposes, Fairfield Glade is not an overly popular resort. Summer is prime season for that resort. I can get a four-bedroom presidential for 300,000 points. If I had CWA, that would be roughly $2,400 in maintenance fees ($600 per bedroom for the week). For some reason, the cheapest cash cost of a one bedroom is $4,900 and that's on an obscure site. None of the major sites have availability. No Idea why. Obviously, the difference is not always that extreme, but it does illustrate that it's not always a waste of money like you say. I do find last minute inventory can be cheaper then the CWA maintenance fees (mine are still cheaper), but that's not always the case. Whether it's a waste of money depends on how you use it. There is literally no one that spends $60,000 year in maintenance fees on a one bedroom TS.

Lets see , Raddison pays 7 1/2 hours to clean 8 large suites . At $12 per hour , if you do the math ? Its less than $12 per unit . I imagine Wyndham pays about $15 per deluxe 1 bed unit in many places

 

[tschwa2]

Lets see , Raddison pays 7 1/2 hours to clean 8 large suites . At $12 per hour , if you do the math ? Its less than $12 per unit . I imagine Wyndham pays about $15 per deluxe 1 bed unit in many places

and in many markets post covid, they may try to spend that much but they can't hire and keep those workers.

 

[CO skier]

The only difference is Wyndham spends 1 work hour per weekly maintenance and another $20 for weekly cleaning . Yeah , I know they charge $159 cleaning fee , but the maids clean 8 per day for $120 ($15 per unit) .

You keep pulling ridiculous numbers out of ... someplace.

Here are the actual average costs for each housekeeping in WorldMark.

 

[Richelle]

No , I took everything into account . You actually believe it takes $60,000 a year to maintain an 800 sf condo ? They spend less than $15,000 in yearly maintenance. They pay $20 a week to the cleaning crew and another $20 a week maintenance workers. Total is less than $350 per week

Nope, it doesn't take $60k to maintain a one bedroom. Let's use NH for example. The point count for their rooms is higher then a lot of resorts, so it should be a good example. "Repair and Maintenace" is less then 10% of the budget. When you average the point costs across the three seasons, a one-bedroom cost 166,330 points. Maintenace fees for next year are $4.90 per 1,000. I do not factor program fee because that goes to Wyndham. So, a one bedroom averages $815.01 a week (not $1,200). 10% of that is $81.50. Times that by 52, and it cost $4,238 per year for just repair and maintenance. One big difference between your home and that condo, is that condo could have over one hundred guests, depending on how many reservations and how many people they bring with them. People can often be hard on furniture, drawers, doors, knobs, appliances, etc when they are not responsible for repairs. So the condos take more wear and tear then your home.

Do not forget the reserve fund which pays for major renovations, furniture replacement, and unexpected costs. That's 20% of the NH budget. That reserve fund is why we didn't have a special assessment when PG county doubled the property taxes. They have since appealed that and won. So, we only had a 4 cent per 1,000 increase this year and last year's increase was just over 1%. There is a lot more on the list. Bad debit, accounting and audit, collection fees, food and beverage, general administrative costs, yada, yada, yada. Many of those in the list you wouldn't have with your home,

Do you own at any Wyndham resorts? If you do, you should be getting a fairly detailed list of where the money is going.

 

[Richelle]

Lets see , Raddison pays 7 1/2 hours to clean 8 large suites . At $12 per hour , if you do the math ? Its less than $12 per unit . I imagine Wyndham pays about $15 per deluxe 1 bed unit in many places

Which Raddison are you referring to? I've not seen a Raddison with seperate bathrooms, kitchens and dining rooms, but then again, I have not been to a lot of Raddison.

 

[jasavak]

You keep pulling ridiculous numbers out of ... someplace.

Here are the actual average costs for each housekeeping in WorldMark.

View attachment 81966

I worked at a 64 unit on maintenance. It took 60 hours per week of maintenance crew . Cleaning: Each house keeper cleans 8 rooms per day . The main housekeeper cleans a couple less than others , but makes sure the others get done. 1 person does nothing but laundry for 7 hours.

A 1 bedroom condo cleaning labor cost will be about $15 per unit. The maintenance and supply costs will be about $15,000 per year on a small condo. you should try to use your head for something better than insults.

 

[Richelle]

The only difference is Wyndham spends 1 work hour per weekly maintenance and another $20 for weekly cleaning .

No everyone stays the full week. At a two-night minimum, they could have to clean that unit three times in one week. It's more common for twice on one week, then three, but it's not always one.

 

[CO skier]

I was referring to time shares in general

A week is the most common stay and its often over $1200 , when it could be maintained easily for $400

These are the latest operating expenses for WorldMark. WorldMark is a non-profit corporation, so the "profit" for Wyndham is only the 11%-ish management fee.

There are approximately 6100 7875 units in WorldMark. Times 50 weeks per year sold = 305,000 393,750 weeks per year. Take the yearly budget of $368 million and divide by 393,750 = approximately $1,200 $935 each week per year operation expenses.

You can make up any numbers you want, but those are the facts. The arithmetic is not complicated.

 

[Richelle]

I'm with @CO skier. Those numbers do not add up. That doesn't even cover the cost of minimum wage, employment insurance, workers comp, the taxes the employer pays for that employee, etc. Not sure where you are getting your numbers, or if you can even prove them. Anyone of us could pull up the yearly budget for our HOA.

 

[jasavak]

I'm with @CO skier. Those numbers do not add up. That doesn't even cover the cost of minimum wage, employment insurance, workers comp, the taxes the employer pays for that employee, etc. Not sure where you are getting your numbers, or if you can even prove them. Anyone of us could pull up the yearly budget for our HOA.

Im not disputing they claim those expenses . I'm just telling you the truth about how little they pay the cleaning and maintenance crew . I just returned from Smokey mountains . At $12 per hour (minimum is $7.25) plus 15% for employer costs , its still less than $15 per unit. They could spend $20 per unit other states , but its still nothing close to the $124 they claim. Last year they charged me a $159 cleaning credit fee. Ironically , they are claiming $1200 per week in expenses. Logically , it makes little sense .

 

[paxsarah]

I am pretty sure

Seems legit.

 

[Richelle]

Im not disputing they claim those expenses . I'm just telling you the truth about how little they pay the cleaning and maintenance crew . I just returned from Smokey mountains . At $12 per hour (minimum is $7.25) plus 15% for employer costs , its still less than $15 per unit. They could spend $20 per unit other states , but its still nothing close to the $124 they claim. Last year they charged me a $159 cleaning credit fee. Ironically , they are claiming $1200 per week in expenses. Logically , it makes little sense .

Who is quoting you $1,200 a week in expenses?


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[tschwa2]

Im not disputing they claim those expenses . I'm just telling you the truth about how little they pay the cleaning and maintenance crew . I just returned from Smokey mountains . At $12 per hour (minimum is $7.25) plus 15% for employer costs , its still less than $15 per unit. They could spend $20 per unit other states , but its still nothing close to the $124 they claim. Last year they charged me a $159 cleaning credit fee. Ironically , they are claiming $1200 per week in expenses. Logically , it makes little sense .

Some resorts contract out to a third party and the actual wages for the person cleaning your room may be quite low but the agency that makes sure someone shows up and that the rooms are cleaned to the contractual levels are getting paid the full amount listed on the budget.

The $159 cleaning fee supplements VIP's with unlimited cleaning and perhaps wyndham.com type hotel stays. They have also gone to a universal fee regardless of size so if you are paying that for a studio and someone else is paying the same for a 4 BR presidential, there is some supplementing going on their. With Wyndham you get 1 hk credit per 70,000 points. So if you make multiple short stays or multiple discounted stays of less than 70,000 you will run out and you will pay the universal fee of $159 for a cleaning.

 

[paulderev]

I dont know what a pic is either. I have 486, 000 whyndam resale points. I would need to buy developer points and the pic to add to over a million to get a VIP ? Do people have luck getting the upgrades and discounts at 60 days out ?

I have had a lot of luck with it but I'm vigilant about it. downright obsessive, even.

 

[Jan M.]

I've been retired for awhile so I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to the numbers for employee expenses that employers pay but employees don't see. From what I remember when health insurance is offered, even with the employee paying a hefty price for it, the employers cost for what is considered the employees entire compensation package is about double what the employee gets paid. Even without health insurance there's still a considerable amount the employer pays that employees are rarely aware of.

We've been owners since the Fairfield days. I can remember when the cleaning staff were resort/Fairfield employees. Some, or all?, of the resorts had their own laundry facilities and laundry workers too.

 

[jasavak]

Who is quoting you $1,200 a week in expenses?


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Post # 65 above

 

[rickandcindy23]

This thread went off the rails with talk of housekeeping fees being out of whack.

I actually would like to whack one poster here on the head with my fan right now. Just sayin'.

 

[jasavak]

I've been retired for awhile so I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to the numbers for employee expenses that employers pay but employees don't see. From what I remember when health insurance is offered, even with the employee paying a hefty price for it, the employers cost for what is considered the employees entire compensation package is about double what the employee gets paid. Even without health insurance there's still a considerable amount the employer pays that employees are rarely aware of.

We've been owners since the Fairfield days. I can remember when the cleaning staff were resort/Fairfield employees. Some, or all?, of the resorts had their own laundry facilities and laundry workers too.

I dont know how Wyndham handles or offers healthcare insurance. Most of these workers are part time less than 40 hours per week making them exempt. California has 14 million people getting government subsidies from state for part time workers. ACA also offers healthcare insurance for $10 per month for lower income workers
The next biggest employer expense is SS at 6.2%. I find it off that people are gullible enough to believe they spend $124 to clean a room and spend $1200 a week in total maintenance. That equates to about a $1000 per day to service 8 rooms . It seems some of these posters are confused by the logic and reality of the situation