Kaanapali Beach Club questions

[feckman]

Hi All,

My wife and I stayed in a 1BR OV at the KBC in January. We liked the resort/room and loved the pool/location, but we were a bit put off by all the DRI propaganda and the TS presentation we attended. It gave us a less-than-comfortable feeling about Diamond in general, and specifically their management of KBC.

While we were on Maui, we also visited the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas and decided to try and purchase there when we got home. Our first offer was taken by Starwood through ROFR which leaves us contemplating what to do next. We'll probably put in one more (slightly higher) offer at WKORV, but the more I think about it and the more research I do, the more it seems like there is much more "bang for the buck" at KBC. The renovated unit we saw was tasteful and well-done, making a potentially declining property much more viable.

One of the biggest "draws" about WKORV for us is the ability to lock-off a 2BR unit which, I understand, is not an option at KBC. Is this correct? Also, is it true that none of the KBC units have a full kitchen? For those who own deeded weeks at KBC, what is your opinion of DRI as a management company? Are you worried about astronomical increases in MF under their watch? And how independent is the HOA? It sounds like Starwood's HOAs are essentially automatons for SVO which scares the hell out of me.

I did have a brainstorm this morning about the possibility of purchasing TWO oceanfront 1BR units at KBC to get around the inability to lockoff, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am letting kids stay in one unit while my wife and I are in another. Has anyone done this kind of thing? If so, how easy is it to get the units close together? That said, the idea of two 1BR oceanfront units at 80% to 85% LESS than the cost of a similar-view 2BR at WKORV is very appealing!

Sorry for the 20 questions, but I appreciate any feedback we can get on them!

--Jim.

 

[daventrina]

I did have a brainstorm this morning about the possibility of purchasing TWO oceanfront 1BR units at KBC
--Jim.

KBC doesn't really have oceanfront except for the two 2BR presidential units on floor 12.
Many of the deluxe ocean units are not on the oceanfront. :annoyed:
A bad choice a Sunterra added more timeshare units to the inventory. Made them more money ... but bad for owners

 

[feckman]

KBC doesn't really have oceanfront except for the two 2BR presidential units on floor 12.
Many of the deluxe ocean units are not on the oceanfront. :annoyed:
A bad choice a Sunterra added more timeshare units to the inventory. Made them more money ... but bad for owners

Thanks for the feedback! So, how are all the units across the front of the "main" building classified? Are none of those deeded weeks?

 

[dougp26364]

I'll give you an idea of the MF increases with DRI over our years of ownership. We've owned at Polo Towers since 1998 or 15 years. Originally our MF's were in the $500 range for a 2 bedroom unit. They are now in the $1,200 range. MF increases have average around 6%/year. There was also a $1,200 special assessment to add in when the HOA decided the dated "modernistic" look of the units needed a complete make over. Most of what DRI is putting in now is relaitively neutral in decor and I don't think we'll see a need for a total make over again.

 

[artringwald]

Whatever you do, I would not recommend buying into the Hawaii Trust. The Trust adds extra overhead so you end up paying more for MF's. The other problem I have with the Trust is that you could potentially have 4 times as many people contending for reservations at the most desirable resort. Laws were written to prevent timeshare companies from selling the same week more than once, but DRI seems to have found a way around the law.

If you like KBC, buy a deeded week on the resale market. We've stayed there several times and haven't missing having an oven. We never used the electric frying pan either.

 

[feckman]

Whatever you do, I would not recommend buying into the Hawaii Trust.

There is not a snowball's chance in Hades that we'd ever buy points in a trust like that. It's deeded weeks for us and nothing else. Not that points systems are bad for everyone, but we've decided to buy where we want to go and take our chances with II/RCI when we want to go somewhere else.

So, does anyone know the deal on the units at the front of the property? I assumed these were the Deluxe Ocean View, but is that not the case? And can KBC 2BR units be locked off?

Many thanks again!

 

[csalter2]

KBC has good rooms with oceanviews

I think we need to identify what an oceanfront and oceanview is. I have stayed at KBC and had a deluxe oceanview room. Our room was facing the ocean. There was no more oceanview that anyone can possibly have. Our one bedroom had sand beneath it. The room was a nice size and there was no stove for us to cook on and there also is no washer dryer in the room. If that is important to you then you can go next door to the Papakea or further down the street to Valley Isle which are DRI affiliates that don't require as many points.

KBC is a nice property, but there are not many two bedrooms. The other thing I have noticed is that whenever I am making reservations for KBC, I am always noticing availablility 10 months out for one bedrooms. I don't belong to the Hawaii trust, but to the US trust. So if I can get the room I want at 10 months out, I am sure those in the Hawaii trust an get what they want at 13 months out.

 

[feckman]

I think we need to identify what an oceanfront and oceanview is. I have stayed at KBC and had a deluxe oceanview room. Our room was facing the ocean. There was no more oceanview that anyone can possibly have. Our one bedroom had sand beneath it.

That's what I assumed, too, but from what daventrina said, it sounded like Deluxe OV is not guaranteed to be oceanfront. I'm just wondering if there's some criteria that lets DRI give priority for those units to points owners as opposed to deeded owners.

As for the 2BR units, I know that there are 16 2BR units on the "wings" of the pyramid (every other floor on each side) and the two Presidential Suites on the front of the main building. What I'm wondering is whether any/all of these lock off? I've heard conflicting info on both.

Thanks again for all the info!

 

[dougp26364]

As I understand it, there is ocean view and deluxe ocean view. There isn't an ocean front designation. Some of the deluxe ocean view units face the ocean, some face the pool but have an open view to the ocean. The ocean view units are situated a little further back in the complex but can see some ocean.

 

[csalter2]

2 bedrooms not lockoffs

As I understand it, there is ocean view and deluxe ocean view. There isn't an ocean front designation. Some of the deluxe ocean view units face the ocean, some face the pool but have an open view to the ocean. The ocean view units are situated a little further back in the complex but can see some ocean.

The two bedrooms are not lock offs. I called KBC to verify this information.

The categories that DRI has for the rooms is 1 bedroom scenic view, 1 bedroom partial ocean room and 1 bedroom deluxe ocean view. The partial ocean rooms do not guarantee you will see the ocean. You may have a peakaboo view if any at all, but the deluxe oceanview is should give you a full ocean view. That's what I was told and requested. I got a full ocean view.

DRI categories the two bedrooms as 2 bedroom, 2 bedroom any view and 2 bedroom Presidential Suite. It sounds as if the 2 bedrooms are hit and miss as far as view, but I can only assume that the Presidential suites would have to be ocean view based upon the large point totals to stay there.

 

[feckman]

Great, thanks for the info! That's what I thought on both counts (lockoff and deluxe OV), but glad to have it confirmed.

And thanks dougp26364 for the info on MFs. That doesn't sound so bad, and it seems consistent with what I've read from other DRI owners -- that the MFs have gone up, but substantial improvements/renovations have been made at the same time.

How about the HOAs, in particular at KBC? Are they fairly independent of DRI, or are they just a mouthpiece? Also, KBC does not have ROFR, correct?

 

[dude-luv]

Rofr and other things

We own a deeded week with an Ocean View category. We stayed at KBC in January and requested units 840, 940 and so forth because we preferred the view from these units. I went to KBC with the intention of staying a week there for the last time. I fully intended to put my unit up for sale (literally giving it away) because I don't trust DRI and the way maintenance fees have risen.

First of all, KBC has ROFR on all sales. They did not exercise it when I purchased resale at a very low price five years ago. I would never give my deeded week to them (they literally begged me for it). No matter what, there is no exit strategy for getting rid of points. They are literally not marketable. All you need to do to verify this is to look at e-bay and many of the other sales sites to see how desperate people are to rid themselves of their points.

KBC does stack the HOA and controls all decisions within the resort. The class action lawsuit that was filed was all about the control that DRI holds. The settlement did little to rectify this.

When I checked into the resort, we were assigned unit 616. We argued with them for awhile (somewhat embarassing to do this) and were finally assigned unit 740 (an excellent poolside and ocean view). They were pleasant all along
but finally assigned us a much better room. I don't know what to believe. Do they assign 'better' units to members of the trust and treat deeded owners with disdain? Hard to know.

I enjoyed the resort and still hold DRI with a great deal of contempt. I have dealt with them in Virginia and several times at Poipu Pointe and KBC. I will never give them my deed (for a ton of reasons). I looked at rental opportunities and other ways of staying at the resort. Free Wi-Fi and free parking make owning versus renting a better option to me for now. I also found that reserving my week was a fairly straight-forward process. If maintenance fees rise dramatically in future, then I will reconsider my ownership. A deeded week (in my opinion) is easier to get rid of and easier to trade than are DRI points.

These are just my opinions.

 

[DaveNV]

we've decided to buy where we want to go and take our chances with II/RCI when we want to go somewhere else.

Something to be aware of is that there are a number of other exchange companies than just RCI and II. As an owner, you can deposit your reserved week with any exchange company you choose. That is, assuming your HOA hasn't screwed that one up, too.

Dave

 

[feckman]

First of all, KBC has ROFR on all sales.

I thought that only the original developer had ROFR? I haven't heard of a KBC sale being taken from a buyer through ROFR, but I could be wrong. Diamond does not have ROFR over KBC though, correct?

And I thought the lawsuit had everything to do with the Point at Poipu special assessment and trust memberships -- two things we won't consider purchasing into. The independent timeshare broker we spoke to in Hawaii said that purchasing a deeded week would protect us from anything but special assessments at KBC. He also said that DRI only controls roughly 15% of all intervals at the resort. The other 85% are still owned as deeded weeks by individual owners.

 

[csalter2]

KBC w/points

I own points with DRI and it is pretty straightforward in the Club rules that if you don't pay your maintenance fees, you are ousted from the Club and your points will be taken away. This can only happen if the points are paid for in full with no outstanding loans.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I thought that only the original developer had ROFR? I haven't heard of a KBC sale being taken from a buyer through ROFR, but I could be wrong. Diamond does not have ROFR over KBC though, correct?

And I thought the lawsuit had everything to do with the Point at Poipu special assessment and trust memberships -- two things we won't consider purchasing into. The independent timeshare broker we spoke to in Hawaii said that purchasing a deeded week would protect us from anything but special assessments at KBC. He also said that DRI only controls roughly 15% of all intervals at the resort. The other 85% are still owned as deeded weeks by individual owners.

With regard to ROFR, I believe that KBC is set up the same as Poipu.

At Poipu, the developer had a ROFR that lasts for 25 years after sales commence, which means that it will terminate in a few years. Since KBC started sales about the same time, I suspect that the ROFR at KBC will also terminate soon. As the successor in interest to the original developer, DRI has the ROFR.

I don't know how often the ROFR is exercised. Ten years ago or so, when Sunterra was still viable, they occasionally exercised it. Then as Sunterra began having financial problems they seemed to have stopped exercising. I don't know how often DRI has used it, if ever. They certainly have not been after the assessment.

As regards DRI control of KBC, the numbers you got from the broker strike me as being a bit low. DRI controls both the inventory it owns directly, as well as KBC inventory that is in the Hawaii Collection, via it's role as manager and operator of the Trust. If you add those two together I think that's a significant fraction of the overall resort ownership.

 

[feckman]

As regards DRI control of KBC, the numbers you got from the broker strike me as being a bit low. DRI controls both the inventory it owns directly, as well as KBC inventory that is in the Hawaii Collection, via it's role as manager and operator of the Trust. If you add those two together I think that's a significant fraction of the overall resort ownership.

It's certainly possible, but they were right in Lahaina and he certainly seemed to know what he was talking about. He strongly (and strongly isn't a strong enough word) urged us to stay away from any trust/points-related purchases because all control of what properties are in the trust lies with DRI. The way he explained it, every time they sell out of points "inventory" in, say, the Hawaii Collection, they just add another otherwise totally unrelated property into the trust. For example, properties in Arizona or Missouri.

According to him, that's how DRI is still selling access to a property that was sold out years ago, and that's when he mentioned the 85% deeded, 15% DRI points figure. The problem is obviously that every time DRI adds a property to the trust, (a) existing points owners' access is diluted and (b) existing points owners become liable for special assessments on all properties in the trust. Like the Point at Poipu debacle. He said that is NOT the case for deeded owners who are only responsible for (and only have access to) their home resort.

Anyway, that's what we were told. Not sure how it squares with what others know about DRI in general and KBC specifically, but it was enough to scare us off from Diamond at the moment. That said, it does seem like there could be a lot of value in KBC, especially in the Deluxe OV view category. And so we're back reconsidering it...

Oh, the fun of trying to buy a timeshare in Maui!

 

[dougp26364]

Great, thanks for the info! That's what I thought on both counts (lockoff and deluxe OV), but glad to have it confirmed.

And thanks dougp26364 for the info on MFs. That doesn't sound so bad, and it seems consistent with what I've read from other DRI owners -- that the MFs have gone up, but substantial improvements/renovations have been made at the same time.

How about the HOAs, in particular at KBC? Are they fairly independent of DRI, or are they just a mouthpiece? Also, KBC does not have ROFR, correct?

None of the HOA's are independent of DRI.

Consider this, KBC is part of the Hawaiian trust. The trust votes the units it owns as a block. Because all owners don't vote and those that do they don't vote in lock step with each other. So the trust probably only needs to control 30% to get their way. The trust is controlled by DRI. the HOA is controlled by DRI by virtue of control of the trust.

If you want to own to use and occasionally exchange with II, I think it would be a good resort to own. DRI isn't the cheapest but they do maintain a reasonably high standard. U it's across the system, once DRI has managed a resort for a few years, is consistent and reliable. I've found their staff to be pretty consistent as well. It's a good system to own in.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

It's certainly possible, but they were right in Lahaina and he certainly seemed to know what he was talking about. He strongly (and strongly isn't a strong enough word) urged us to stay away from any trust/points-related purchases because all control of what properties are in the trust lies with DRI. The way he explained it, every time they sell out of points "inventory" in, say, the Hawaii Collection, they just add another otherwise totally unrelated property into the trust. For example, properties in Arizona or Missouri.

According to him, that's how DRI is still selling access to a property that was sold out years ago, and that's when he mentioned the 85% deeded, 15% DRI points figure. The problem is obviously that every time DRI adds a property to the trust, (a) existing points owners' access is diluted and (b) existing points owners become liable for special assessments on all properties in the trust. Like the Point at Poipu debacle. He said that is NOT the case for deeded owners who are only responsible for (and only have access to) their home resort.

Anyway, that's what we were told. Not sure how it squares with what others know about DRI in general and KBC specifically, but it was enough to scare us off from Diamond at the moment. That said, it does seem like there could be a lot of value in KBC, especially in the Deluxe OV view category. And so we're back reconsidering it...

Oh, the fun of trying to buy a timeshare in Maui!

How he described it is pretty much how all trust systems operate. DRI so far has been using the "Hawaii" Collection really as a collection for "higher end" properties, at least as compared with the properties that are in the US Trust, which is mostly the old Club Sunterra mainland properties.

He's absolutely and totally correct that if KBC is where you want to stay, then it makes no sense whatsover to buy into the Hawaii Collection. In that case, you buy a deeded week in the view category that you want.

*******

The only time it makes sense to get into any kind of a Club situation is if you want to visit different resorts regularly and the Club resorts that covers many of the places you want to visit. In that case, the extra fees you pay to belong to the Club offset against the exchange company membership and exchange fees you would be paying to exchange into those locations. Plus, working through an club it's usually easier to make reservations (you reserve directly from inventory instead of waiting and hoping for an exchange to come through) and you get better control of the type of unit you will receive at the resort.

 

[Emi]

We own a deeded deluxe oceanview and joined the hawaii trust when the price was viable when Diamond acquired the resort. Currently the price is very steep to join. We retain our deed ownership and deposit it for points when we wish. We are able to obtain deluxe oceanview (11500 pts) for the oceanview number of points (8500 pts) and $99 upgrade. We are very happy we retained deed ownership because the maintenance fees are much lower. Maintenance fee for 1 br was $700 before Diamond and now it is $1100. It is still lower than the other major resorts on Maui which has the highest timeshare real estate taxes. We also own a 2br at Marriott lahaina Tower and the maintenance fee is $2200 and I understand it is $2900 at Westin. In all fairness, the fee was artificially low under Suntera management's creative accounting. It was their sales cash cow for selling their club. It left the resort with little reserve once the accounting was straightened out. The Gm has done a great job cleaning up the resort, putting it on good financial position and doing the renovations without special assessment.

Deluxe oceanview are the units oceanfront and the units on the side of the front section overlooking the pool. It is about 50% oceanfront. We usually do not have a problem getting oceanfront unit although the oceanside units have great views as well. It all depends wheN you reserve and date of reservation with holiday weeks being more difficult. Also there are owners and club members who stay multiple weeks (eg 4 weeks) during winter season and getting the best units. The earlier you reserve the higher the priority of preference. The 2 Presidential units are at the 2 oceanfront corners of the top 12th fl. They are the only units with a full kitchen. The other 2bedrooms are in
the back section building facing the ocean. They are not lockoffs. The
building was built very close to waterline which is no longer allowed under
current building standards.

Emi

 

[dougp26364]

Here is a link to the photo album of another TUG/Timeshareforums member of KBC https://picasaweb.google.com/vinolover78/MauiKaAnapaliBeachClub1BR1BAUnit1104November2010# . Towards the end of the album is a picture that shows where the ocean view, deluxe ocean view, scenic view and 2 bedroom units are located.

 

[feckman]

Outstanding information, thanks everyone! And that image showing the location of the different unit types/view designations is fantastic.

The more we consider where we want to go and how we want to use the intervals (now and in the future), two deeded 1BR Deluxe OV units at KBC starts to make sense. Especially compared with WKORV where we'd spend tens of thousands of dollars more if we wanted to get something similar in a similar view class. We're still up in the air, but I'm going to talk with our agent today and see what we can come up with.

One final question -- does anyone have any insight/opinion as to a fair offer price for deeded Deluxe OV 1BRs at KBC? They seem to go at rock-bottom prices on eBay ($250 to $500), but they you have to deal with the headache of potentially shady eBay sellers. I'd rather pay a little more and have the comfort of a reputable seller/closing service.

And if anyone has other suggestions or advice on things we may not have considered related to KBC vs WKORV I'm all ears, and thanks again for all the great info!

--Jim.

 

[TheWizz]

I've purchased many TS from EBay - just look for the sellers with near 100% positive feedback. There are several that are quite good and run a rep business. There are also many TS selling websites where you can get a good deal - just goggle search for it and they'll show up. I have exchanged into KBC many times and love staying there. Most times in a 1BR DOV or OV, however, we did stay there one time in a 2BR MV room with my extended family. Best of luck!

 

[artringwald]

I was nervous about buying through resale, so I bought our last one through RedWeek and used there recommended closing company. It cost more, but it seemed to be less risky.

 

[Emi]

Most of the ones i have seen on eBay are island view. No matter what the seller claims as view get the unit number on the deed. Call the front desk and give them the unit number to verify the view. Some of us here on tug can also verify for you. Good luck