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It's Maintenance Fee Month. Good old January. How is everyone coping? Are timeshare maintenance fees still worth the value vs hotel or other forms of

You're talking weeks. But even so the MFs on the Westins in Hawaii for a 1BR are around $3000 ($400+/night) and an owner probably had to spend $30K+ upfront to buy it from the developer. What's the opportunity cost on that upfront cost?

With hotels you don't tie up tens on thousands upfront and at best recoup your cost (if you bought resale).

And don't forget that they hope new buyers are not aware of weeks or resale market. The current value proposition from MVC for a 1BR Maui is about 4500 points ($70,000) with MFs of $3600 ($500+/night). How many people would think that's a good deal? And also have the money to pay that?
"owner probably had to spend $30K+ upfront to buy it from the developer. What's the opportunity cost on that upfront cost?"
Yes, but that is not really how it works. People who buy from developers are not doing any calculation even close to that. Buying from the developer cannot pass that analysis. People who buy from the developer are starry-eyed dreamers burning their money. These TS are roughly worth
the developers' up-front price or
the MFs
Not both. That is so obvious. If someone sits in a room and doesn't clearly grasp that, they have zero idea of the Time-Value-Of-Money. (note it is Time-Value-Of-Money moreso than the more general concept of Opportunity Cost)
 
Check hotel rates for beach or other resort-type hotels, particularly in Hawaii, the Caribbean and other places. No way you are getting a week for $2000. Lots of Hampton Inns and Courtyards in decent locations are at those levels these days. We spent six nights at a Westin hotel on Grand Cayman last January, and that cost us over $6,000 (but we got free breakfast :whooopie:). Our hotel in Florence, Italy this past summer was over $800 per night as well.

Timeshare owners like to gripe about maintenance fee increases, but resort hotel rates have risen significantly as well. Our Marriott and Hilton weeks and points still seem like great values to us.
This is why the value of time sharing depends on how and where you vacation. Those that would otherwise not go on vacation may not see the value with increasing MF. Those that stay at category 1 and 2 hotels may not see the value either. Which is fine as different strokes for different folks. So one makes that assessment based on how they value their travel experience. Tug has been a great help to me to make the best of what I own and get the best value out of it.
 
You're talking weeks. But even so the MFs on the Westins in Hawaii for a 1BR are around $3000 ($400+/night) and an owner probably had to spend $30K+ upfront to buy it from the developer. What's the opportunity cost on that upfront cost?

With hotels you don't tie up tens on thousands upfront and at best recoup your cost (if you bought resale).

And don't forget that they hope new buyers are not aware of weeks or resale market. The current value proposition from MVC for a 1BR Maui is about 4500 points ($70,000) with MFs of $3600 ($500+/night). How many people would think that's a good deal? And also have the money to pay that?
In regards to points you are correct . I don’t see the value in that as the fee’s are way too high.
 
We are in a similar position in that we wanted an additional unit to accommodate family in Maui. So we bought another WKV this year.

What I got right:
1) Buying WKV to trade into Hawaii saves us $1000/year in MF. We already own WKORV OF for time-stamp views (plus Abound enrolled to deposit or rent points). WKV via Staroptions is better value for IV or OV because MF is same as OF at WKORV so less value;
2) Buying EOY doesn't force us to travel to Hawaii every year and reduces the MF obligation by almost half.

What I got wrong: I should have waited 6 months to buy at end of year because resale prices dropped $1500 - $2000. (sigh)

Net: I was going to buy another EOY WKV Even to balance out my odd purchase but now those plans are on hold because the MF are now significant. Per @DanCali excellent post on remorse. I will only pick up such a unit if I can find a deal to make up for my lost $1500 - $2000 and will only pay for future year MF vs. reimbursing for current year MF so I don't pay full price for restricted points. Therefore I am looking for a killer deal to make up for my past error or will forego a purchase.
You’ve got a great portfolio and have been very strategic in building it up. You’re absolutely right in that if you need the extra space it makes sense to trade in using SO for IV or OV if you can also pair with an OF unit.
 
You're talking weeks. But even so the MFs on the Westins in Hawaii for a 1BR are around $3000 ($400+/night) and an owner probably had to spend $30K+ upfront to buy it from the developer. What's the opportunity cost on that upfront cost?

With hotels you don't tie up tens on thousands upfront and at best recoup your cost (if you bought resale).

And don't forget that they hope new buyers are not aware of weeks or resale market. The current value proposition from MVC for a 1BR Maui is about 4500 points ($70,000) with MFs of $3600 ($500+/night). How many people would think that's a good deal? And also have the money to pay that?

You are referencing the overall value proposition of developer-purchased timeshares, which haven't been a great purely economic question for a long, long time. The OP's question though, was more about how the larger maintenance fee increases of the last year or so have impacted peoples' view of the value of their ownership. So, my post was replying to that more so than dissecting the overall economics of timeshare ownership.

In a nutshell, what I was trying to say was that timeshare ownership has worked for us over the years (most of what we now own was bought resale, with our only developer purchases being Marriott points needed to enroll our weeks), and since hotel costs have risen significantly the last couple of years, our overall value proposition has remained intact and hasn't really changed that much - at least the way we vacation. And that last point is very important - as @Red elephant noted above, those who are content with category 1-2 hotels probably will find their timeshare value proposition has eroded more than ours has, since we prefer higher category resort-style accommodations for our vacations.
 
Check hotel rates for beach or other resort-type hotels, particularly in Hawaii, the Caribbean and other places. No way you are getting a week for $2000. Lots of Hampton Inns and Courtyards in decent locations are at those levels these days. We spent six nights at a Westin hotel on Grand Cayman last January, and that cost us over $6,000 (but we got free breakfast :whooopie:). Our hotel in Florence, Italy this past summer was over $800 per night as well.

Timeshare owners like to gripe about maintenance fee increases, but resort hotel rates have risen significantly as well. Our Marriott and Hilton weeks and points still seem like great values to us.
Well this is why I started this thread. For Beachfront hotel options in South Florida. Is our daily timeshare rate providing equivalent or better value for the $$. I took a quick screen shot and posted #2 in this thread.

However with respect to Ocean Pointe we took a big increase 2 years in a row now.
 
Well this is why I started this thread. For Beachfront hotel options in South Florida. Is our daily timeshare rate providing equivalent or better value for the $$. I took a quick screen shot and posted #2 in this thread.

However with respect to Ocean Pointe we took a big increase 2 years in a row now.
Just perusing Marriott.com, it would seem South Florida beachfront Marriott hotels tend to start in the $400s per night and go up from there (for a couple random weeks I looked at in the Spring). Not nearly as expensive as what we experienced a year ago in the Caymans, but still quite a bit more than it used to be. We REALLY wish Marriott Vacations would open a resort on Grand Cayman. We would go every year, I suspect, if it were available with points.

As I said above, though, the value proposition is very person-specific and depends heavily on what category of accommodations you tend to utilize.
 
You are referencing the overall value proposition of developer-purchased timeshares, which haven't been a great purely economic question for a long, long time.

It's more than that... It used to be that buying resale was a great or very good deal. Maybe you had to do some research if you were a newbie, but there was great value to be uncovered in many places. Conversely, buying from the developer was a mediocre to lousy deal but there was still some value there. You could at least point to a "breakeven point" - it may have been 15-20 years down the road (as opposed to 4-6 years with resale), but it was there. People I would meet at the pools thought they got fantastic deals...

Now, even the resale proposition is lousier. It takes a lot longer to break even, savings each year relative to rental values are smaller, and the uncertainty with MF increases is much greater, especially with the rise of defaults. Again - ask yourself how much of what you own today would you buy again today (in the same manner originally acquired) at today's prices and MFs? In my case, it's probably less than half of the weeks, and zero points. And speaking of developer point purchases, I just don't see the value at all anymore - points at $16-$17 with MFs of $0.80 that translates to $100K+ and $5000+ in annual MFs for higher demand weeks in prime locations with prime views (over 7000 points for a 2BR on Maui or Marco Island, for example). These days, that $100K would earn you $5000 more interest annually if you kept it in the bank. At these price levels, that's is almost like trying to sell the MVC product at Ritz prices. That's no longer a product affordable to the average middle-class family making $75K/year like what they target for the type of presentations required to sell this. It looked a lot different in 2013 when MFs for points were $0.44 - it will likely have doubled in the 12 years from 2013 to 2025.

The problem is that if MVC fails, what we own can be worth much less monetarily and functionally. How does using a week in your season sound with no II and no Abound to go along with it? So, while I would probably never buy from the mothership myself, I hope they continue to do well. At these prices and MFs, I'm more skeptical than ever before.
 
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People who buy from the developer are starry-eyed dreamers burning their money.
Before you get too disparaging of those who chose to buy from the developer, remember that without them there would be no resorts, and no resale market for us to get the excellent deals available.

The time value of money calculation for the purchase price is the same as for purchase of a vacation home, so yes it can be done and people do it. Similarly calculations about the future escalation of fees and maint fees can, be and are, also done.
As with all financial analysis you can choose your basis. Whether you discount cost back to the point of purchase or have some other model. Whatever you do contains risk in the assumptions about cost escalation rates and the factors that make up opportunity cost for your personal circumstances as well as your projections for future affordability.

As with all areas of life, there will be some who make a poor choice and impulse purchase, but don't presume that it is all, unless you have data to support that.
 
we remain very happy with hgvc
 
We are still very happy with our ownership. We have always considered the upfront costs (direct or resale) to be sunk costs. Yes, MF's are getting pretty ridiculous, some resorts more than others. When we compare, we don't compare to hotels, we compare to AirBnB or house/condo rentals, because one of the biggest things we enjoy about our MVC stays is the ability to spread out as a family, into multiple bedrooms, have a living room to hang out, etc. Our most expensive vacation in recent years was when we stayed in a rental house with other families, and it was WAY more expensive.

Upcoming trips for this year include a trip that is saving us well over $1000/week to stay at MVC as compared to the locations the rest of our group/team are staying. They are staying in hotel rooms, we are staying in a 2BR villa.
 
That's no longer a product affordable to the average middle-class family making $75K/year like what they target for the type of presentations required to sell this. It looked a lot different in 2013 when MFs for points were $0.44 - it will likely have doubled in the 12 years from 2013 to 2025.

The problem is that if MVC fails, what we own can be worth much less monetarily and functionally. How does using a week in your season sound with no II and no Abound to go along with it? So, while I would probably never buy from the mothership myself, I hope they continue to do well. At these prices and MFs, I'm more skeptical than ever before.
Um, middle class families have never been the target. Maybe Horizons, which failed. The last I saw the average Marriott owner had a net worth of $1.5M, so definitely not middle class. I would argue that based on rising income inequality that Marriott has more customers than ever before.

I mean if I was a salesperson I would be like: For what you spend on a gas guzzling SUV that costs $7k per year to operate you can own 6,000 points and take your whole family to the beach each year with room to stretch out, daily kids programs, and points left over. Keep your current car and treat your family, you will thank me later. MVC is not going anywhere.
 
How does MVC know anyone's net worth?
Marketing. Every customer goes through a real estate closing. I would do a legal records search for each one for additional data. Credit reports, loan applications, self reporting surveys, social media etc. Everything you do is scooped up, colated, correlated, and analyzed. Their best customers are people that have already purchased so I assume they gather everything they can about those people. That is why their data breaches were very serious events. It is the reality of the world we live in. Businesses know a lot about us if they want to.
 
We always plead poverty when attending a sales presentation
When you sign up, there is usually a minimum income requirement of $100,000/yr.
 
Before you get too disparaging of those who chose to buy from the developer, remember that without them there would be no resorts, and no resale market for us to get the excellent deals available.

The time value of money calculation for the purchase price is the same as for purchase of a vacation home, so yes it can be done and people do it. Similarly calculations about the future escalation of fees and maint fees can, be and are, also done.
As with all financial analysis you can choose your basis. Whether you discount cost back to the point of purchase or have some other model. Whatever you do contains risk in the assumptions about cost escalation rates and the factors that make up opportunity cost for your personal circumstances as well as your projections for future affordability.

As with all areas of life, there will be some who make a poor choice and impulse purchase, but don't presume that it is all, unless you have data to support that.
Oh yes. I agree. We need them. More importantly, the TS companies need them. I am not disparaging them. I am simply stating reality. Yes, we need them. That is why I cringe every time the crowd here tells basically anyone who bought retail to "Rescind! Rescind!" Every time someone rescinds and the developer has any inkling that is due to "Well, I'll just buy resale.", there is at least one employee at that developer saying "We really have to do something to de-value this resale market. It is hurting us."

So, people who own resale shouldn't be so happy when others rescind. Which is an extension of your initial point.

Poor choice and impulse? The only way that is not true is when someone values convenience / simplicity over cost. I bought mine resale, but still, #1 reason I bought them is convenience / simplicity. Data? It is in the #s, in the $s. People's situations differ but the #s don't change. Priorities do.

"As with all financial analysis you can choose your basis." ... Here is the democratization on the internet. Everyone's opinion and approach is right. There are CORRECT ways to do this stuff and sloppy ways. Once again, it is not "opportunity cost". And, the risks in the assumptions are a distant secondary consideration to thinking about it correctly in the first place.
 
Actually what we now own in the Marriott/Vistana portfolio were all bought directly from the developer. We did know about the resale market but chose this route. We were latecomers to Marriott, buying our first weeks in 2013 and hence past the 2010 cutoff date. Regardless, our price per point is about $5.33 and we are at Chairman's Club level. Now, my first purchase in 1996 at SVR was because my then partner insisted that we buy to force us to take vacations. I hated the resort but it now has the lowest MF and the great SO value amongst what we own. Who would have guessed that the lowly SVR turns out to be our best purchase.
 
Now, even the resale proposition is lousier. It takes a lot longer to break even, savings each year relative to rental values are smaller, and the uncertainty with MF increases is much greater, especially with the rise of defaults. Again - ask yourself how much of what you own today would you buy again today (in the same manner originally acquired) at today's prices and MFs?
To answer the question you posed, if we were making the same decision today, we would buy exactly what we own now with one exception - we would no longer buy our week at Barony on Hilton Head because we now own our own beach condo on the island. The truth is however, without that Barony ownership, we likely would have never truly fallen in love with HHI and bought that condo. We now elect the Barony week as a source of Abound points.

The value for any one owner depends on how they use their ownership. For us, we compare our timeshare costs against the alternatives we would likely use. If we didn't own our Hawaii weeks, we would probably be paying for Marriott, Hilton, or Hyatt level hotels in either Hawaii, or the Caribbean, or other warm weather destinations. We don't do AirBnB or VRBO or other person-to-person rentals, so we'd be paying $1000/night for ocean-oriented resorts like we had to do a year ago when we wanted to go to the Caymans. I haven't done an analysis because I don't know how I would find the previous year hotel costs, but it feels anecdotally to me that rates at prime time resort-type hotels in places like Hawaii and the Caribbean have risen even more than timeshare maintenance fees, so it feels like the value proposition is still very much intact for us.

And speaking of developer point purchases, I just don't see the value at all anymore - points at $16-$17 with MFs of $0.80 that translates to $100K+ and $5000+ in annual MFs for higher demand weeks in prime locations with prime views (over 7000 points for a 2BR on Maui or Marco Island, for example). These days, that $100K would earn you $5000 more interest annually if you kept it in the bank.

I tend to agree that developer points purchases today seem very hard to justify from a purely financial analysis perspective in the quantities that are needed to travel how and where we travel. But that wasn't the OP's original question. The question originally posed was have the increases in maintenance fees negatively impacted the value you feel you get from your timeshares that you already own? My answer is a solid "No, the increases have not impacted the value we get. Hotel costs are rising rapidly too."

An opportunity cost analysis can be insightful, but in the final analysis, before someone spends $100k, or even $30k, on a luxury item - be it a luxury car, a boat, a vacation home, a luxury cruise, or a timeshare - they should have their short, medium, and long term saving, investment, and retirement goals fully and comfortably met. If those are all met, I think it's fine to question and assess whether that $100k is better spent on a timeshare, a boat, the down payment on a vacation home, or some other luxury item, but just comparing it to $5000 in interest ignores the broader enjoyment value that discretionary expenditures can provide in your life. If you don't need an extra $5000 in interest, go spend that $100k on something that provides you enjoyment!

That's no longer a product affordable to the average middle-class family making $75K/year like what they target for the type of presentations required to sell this.
During their 2019 Investor Day presentation they said that MVC owners had a median family income of $130,000 and a median net worth of $1.5 million. That's most certainly higher today. They did not disclose an owner profile in their 2022 Investor Day.
 
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Oh yes. I agree. We need them. More importantly, the TS companies need them. I am not disparaging them. I am simply stating reality. Yes, we need them. That is why I cringe every time the crowd here tells basically anyone who bought retail to "Rescind! Rescind!" Every time someone rescinds and the developer has any inkling that is due to "Well, I'll just buy resale.", there is at least one employee at that developer saying "We really have to do something to de-value this resale market. It is hurting us."

So, people who own resale shouldn't be so happy when others rescind. Which is an extension of your initial point.

The logic above is backwards [emphasis mine]. If resale VOIs held reasonable value then no one would say, "Rescind, Buy resale" and people would buy developer if there was reasonable expectation of return on the capital. I don't see many (if any) posts on the DVC forum stating, "Rescind. Buy resale."

Owners would also not be so negative e.g. we would not be having a conversation like this thread. Owners have lost value and are upset. If devaluation of resale is purposeful (e.g. they strip resale of benefits so the value to the next resale buyer is nil) then it is Marriott's short-sightedness and they get their just rewards.
 
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Every time someone rescinds and the developer has any inkling that is due to "Well, I'll just buy resale.", there is at least one employee at that developer saying "We really have to do something to de-value this resale market. It is hurting us."
If I were a developer or sales manager I would push to implement anything possible to keep the resale market strong and almost in parity with new unit sales. A housing developer doesn't want the prices of homes in a development to crash 50% to 90% in the first few years of ownership. If homes in a developing neighborhood were reselling for that much less the developer would not be able to sell newly constructed homes. Home buyers would easily see what other similar homes are selling for. Clear transparency. A buyer in a timeshare sales hotbox doesn't have full transparency of what the unit is reselling for. I agree with CalGal and her logic. Caveat Emptor is good only to a point. In fact, if a developer or business team could come up with a creative way to get resale units to actually appreciate in price there would be a flood of people buying from the developer and a ton of happy TS owners and resellers.
IMO that is why companies originally implemented ROFR in order to give the impression that prices will remain high and the person's investment would stay strong.
While many TUG members, myself included, have saved tons of money helping people unload their timeshare I for one never ever find great joy in watching people over pay for anything and get financially hurt or destroyed. From my brief time on TUG I have read about numerous people who are financially strapped and hurt because of their TS purchase and commitment. If the resale market was stronger they could easily unload at a good price and be mostly whole.
 
Perhaps the long-term direction is to get the buildings back at some point for free or low cost from owners walking and then sell the real estate as wholly-owned vacation condos. The underlying real estate is worth a lot for many of these resorts especially beach front or ski.

Perhaps the trust is the first step in this process...

We own on West 57th in NYC. Some of the VOIs are given away by owners. Yet new condos across the street are selling for $10M plus because this is "Billionaires Row" Defies gravity that the VOIs are not worth more. However if we can hold out long enough and MF remain reasonable, perhaps we may get a nice buy-out someday.
 
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