It's Maintenance Fee Month. Good old January. How is everyone coping? Are timeshare maintenance fees still worth the value vs hotel or other forms of

[bnoble]

If they keep increasing at double digit rates while my income increases, at best, single digit rates, there will come a point where we can no longer afford the luxury of timeshare.

I'm expecting my discretionary income to go down by a good chunk in the next few years, but I plan to cut elsewhere. I've already got my eye on a few other leisure activities that I can easily live without.

 

[DanCali]

I made one of those posts, but I’m doing more than fine on this front as well—and I just looked at RW to double check.

I guess it's fair to compare to hotels too once you're an owner.

What I don't like about that is that nobody makes a deal with a hotel to pay $30K-$60K upfront in order to save money in perpetuity (many of us bought resale, but that's less relevant). But that's the timeshare proposition. So if the timeshare MFs are even approaching hotel levels, it means that value proposition is no longer there, and even more so if you're sitting in front of a salesperson. There's a reason salespeople compare MFs to hotel rates - hotels have a profit component built into the rate that timeshares should not have on an ongoing basis.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I like what we have; however, we are finding we actually need more now that the kids are older and wanting to bring friends along. I just dropped over $500/night for two basic hotel rooms for a short family stay.

Travel has gotten more expensive but our Vistana units still provide us with value and fit within our budget. Should the increases continue like this I’ll likely make another HGVC purchase as they seem to be able to find ways to continue adding value to their owners rather than simply viewing their owners as cash cows to be milked to the last drop.

We are in a similar position in that we wanted an additional unit to accommodate family in Maui. So we bought another WKV this year.

What I got right:
1) Buying WKV to trade into Hawaii saves us $1000/year in MF. We already own WKORV OF for time-stamp views (plus Abound enrolled to deposit or rent points). WKV via Staroptions is better value for IV or OV because MF is same as OF at WKORV so less value;
2) Buying EOY doesn't force us to travel to Hawaii every year and reduces the MF obligation by almost half.

What I got wrong: I should have waited 6 months to buy at end of year because resale prices dropped $1500 - $2000. (sigh)

Net: I was going to buy another EOY WKV Even to balance out my odd purchase but now those plans are on hold because the MF are now significant. Per @DanCali excellent post on remorse. I will only pick up such a unit if I can find a deal to make up for my lost $1500 - $2000 and will only pay for future year MF vs. reimbursing for current year MF so I don't pay full price for restricted points. Therefore I am looking for a killer deal to make up for my past error or will forego a purchase.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

One other factor affecting Redweek rentals. Some owners may now decide to lock-off and rent half to help pay the MF for the entire unit. This will add more supply to the Redweek/Tug rental supply thus depressing rental values in those channels.

Owner partial rentals may become the future of timesharing since I don't see many young people buying who didn't already have relatives who own.

 

[aandmrun]

I think it all depends on what you own and how the maintenance is being kept up. I will certainly hold on to my Marriott Desert Springs and a Park Hotel in Park City. The Marriott holds it's value and Park City is a great trader. Also, for those of you that are nearing retirement, we found that we enjoyed our timeshares even more after retirement. We use hotel nights here and there, but for our longer vacations we prefer the timeshare environment.

 

[Red elephant]

I guess it's fair to compare to hotels too once you're an owner.

What I don't like about that is that nobody makes a deal with a hotel to pay $30K-$60K upfront in order to save money in perpetuity (many of us bought resale, but that's less relevant). But that's the timeshare proposition. So if the timeshare MFs are even approaching hotel levels, it means that value proposition is no longer there, and even more so if you're sitting in front of a salesperson. There's a reason salespeople compare MFs to hotel rates - hotels have a profit component built into the rate that timeshares should not have on an ongoing basis.

What you are saying is correct especially for the non resale owner. However the time share pays itself off as the years go by. Especially for places like Hawaii where one can use their ownership for 2 weeks in a one bedroom . Whereas staying in a hotel will be unaffordable on an annual basis. Just my thoughts.

 

[Quilter]

I've had thoughts along these lines too because lifestyle changes in ways you don't foresee.

I'd really be interested in the resorts someone finds for $200/night. Is that a beach location? I'd also be interested in finding ways to get more value from II. I use the exchanges, but haven't found getaways.

We bought our first week in '99 when we were 47. Added 3 more weeks the following year when we considered how we'd use them upon retirement. Within 5 years we added 5 more weeks and subsequently sold 2 of those. So now with 7 weeks, 6 of them lock offs, we have more than we personally use. I've dabbled in rentals to offset the m/f load. That's a lot of work and there's the liability factor to consider.

4 of the weeks are at OP. OP was a unique situation thanks to the OP newsgroup and a Board member who diligently kept people connected. It truly functioned more like a condo full of friends than a resort full of strangers. We've aged along with our OP friends and the crowd of known friends is changing. 2020 was the last we saw of the couples we shared the most activities with. Without the close friends OP is a beach and a resort.

Our other resorts are Grande Ocean, Canyon Villas and Manor Club. Canyon Villas and Manor Club no longer hold attraction for us and are a means to offset the m/f's. Grande Ocean and Hilton Head do. We have been spending more and more time there. Since we go during shoulder season I can get rooms for a fraction of what it cost to go to OP.

The bottom line is still there's a list of factors that make us wonder how to offset m/f's with some rentals and where to exchange if we do. This summer we're going a different route and spending a month in England, Wales and Ireland. A hotel at the start and end but airbnb and B & B's for the rooms. I have a stash of ff miles and hotel points to use up for other ventures.

 

[AJCts411]

Comparing timeshare to hotel room. If your only looking for a few nights, a less than week stay, no kitchen, just a bed to sleep in then maybe you can use a hotel room for comparison. Not defending these jumps in maintenance fees, but comparing a hotel room to a one or two bedroom unit with full kitchen, laundry etc is not apples to apples.

 

[bnoble]

nobody makes a deal with a hotel to pay $30K-$60K upfront in order to save money in perpetuity (many of us bought resale, but that's less relevant). But that's the timeshare proposition

I don't care about the developer value proposition. None of mine were bought that way, so it's not my problem. Also, you didn't ask that in your original post. You asked: "Are timeshare maintenance fees still worth the value vs hotel or other forms of vacation travel?"

As an aside, given that question maybe it's not surprising people gave you hotel comparisons.

Even so, there are a handful of intervals that can justify the retail value on a like-for-like basis, whether renting on the "traditional" market (direct from the "brand", expedia, etc.) or renting from a typical owner. When I say like-for-like, I mean renting that unit with that view during that time at that resort. But, for most people in most situations, I would tell them that buying from the developer is a bad idea.

----
This is not at all what you asked, but I'm also increasingly of the opinion that the real value in timesharing is not "spent the least amount of money on vacation lodging." Instead, it is some balance of "I stayed in a nicer place than I would have rented, for not that much more money than I would have spent otherwise." plus "I have these use-it-or-lose-it assets, so I guess I better figure out how to go on vacation."

 

[jp10558]

So for me, as I've said elsewhere, I currently view my timeshares like my Hilton credit card with yearly fee, or Sam's Club. I bought resale so I'm looking at MFs mostly. I didn't buy Marriott because you lose too much resale vs HGVC and Wyndham IMHO.

OK, so my MFs are not too high, and compared to rentals last time I looked were still cheaper in locations I was comparing. I have yet to find the much vaunted (on the Internet) cheaper than MFs rentals. I'm sure it depends on where and when, but that's my experience. That said, the value for me is the RCI Extra Vacations - these are often stupidly cheap IMHO for what you get.

I personally have little interest in AirB&B after the various horror stories on the news, and the fact that they're usually not that great a deal anymore - again, often more than my MFs. I regularly have traveled in hotels, and I still do stay in them when I have to be in a specific place for one or two nights at a specific time. Compared to hotels, most 2BR timeshares via Extra Vacations are cheaper than one hotel room in many cases for 7 nights. Comparing a 2BR timeshare MFs usually beats out 2 hotel rooms for 7 nights. Most decent hotels are running at least $150 per room per night before tax and fees. I'd say $200 isn't a bad average I've seen. That's $1,400 before tax for 7 nights. My HGVC MFs for a 2BR are only $100 more for the week. If a Hilton offered me a Suite upgrade with 2 bed rooms and 2 bathrooms for $100 more over the whole 7 nights, I'd upgrade in a second. I've been looking at other timeshares and at least for the independents most MFs are running similar or less.

I know Marriotts are more, and I saw people talking about like double HGVC in many cases, and at double the MFs for a week, I'd be asking this question too. But I'd also be asking if I should just move to a more reasonable TS system and MFs.

I'm also increasingly of the opinion that the real value in timesharing is not "spent the least amount of money on vacation lodging." Instead, it is some balance of "I stayed in a nicer place than I would have rented, for not that much more money than I would have spent otherwise." plus "I have these use-it-or-lose-it assets, so I guess I better figure out how to go on vacation."

I also agree with this - when we had to look at spending $1,000 or more on a standard hotel room for 5 days or so, we would really scale back our vacation plans, and I think pre COVID we would go on one "big" (like 9 days or so) vacation every 3 years or sometimes longer between. With TS since 2022 we're going on 1 week trips 3 times a year or more.

 

[echino]

There's a reason salespeople compare MFs to hotel rates - hotels have a profit component built into the rate that timeshares should not have on an ongoing basis.

But they do.

 

[hcarman]

Unfortunately for us in Texas, January is also property tax month - and they are sky high where we live now. This is something we didn't deal with when we first bought our timeshares. We have pretty much decided that it is time to get rid of some of our inventory. We both still work so don't have the time to take advantage of the extra perks like Interval certificates, and my husband has less vacation time now than he used to so we don't even use what we have. We have found renting our extra inventory to be a bit stressful and time consuming and something extra to deal with on our taxes. As someone noted, it is harder to get asking price on sites like Redweek because so many are now renting. We used to use Vacation Candy but that has not been successful post Covid. Also finding inventory at the 13 month mark is down for shorter stays - lots of resorts are forcing the 7 day stays and this is not why we joined the Destination Club. So all in all, even though we have enjoyed our vacations just not getting that warm and fuzzy feeling anymore that this much timeshare ownership is for us. If we were retired, didn't have pets, and could afford the annual fees, we would take full advantage of the traveling it allows. Also, if we vacationed with a large family I could definitely see a lot of cost savings - but we don't. I will say I have been very impressed by how Disney has managed to avoid the excessive increases on the small amount of points we own with them. Our decision is which to get rid of and how to get rid of it - sell it on Redweek or just give it back to Marriott (leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth to go this route).

 

[DanCali]

I don't care about the developer value proposition. None of mine were bought that way, so it's not my problem. Also, you didn't ask that in your original post. You asked: "Are timeshare maintenance fees still worth the value vs hotel or other forms of vacation travel?"

As an aside, given that question maybe it's not surprising people gave you hotel comparisons.

Even so, there are a handful of intervals that can justify the retail value on a like-for-like basis, whether renting on the "traditional" market (direct from the "brand", expedia, etc.) or renting from a typical owner. When I say like-for-like, I mean renting that unit with that view during that time at that resort. But, for most people in most situations, I would tell them that buying from the developer is a bad idea.

----
This is not at all what you asked, but I'm also increasingly of the opinion that the real value in timesharing is not "spent the least amount of money on vacation lodging." Instead, it is some balance of "I stayed in a nicer place than I would have rented, for not that much more money than I would have spent otherwise." plus "I have these use-it-or-lose-it assets, so I guess I better figure out how to go on vacation."

Just a clarification - that was not me in the original post asking the original questions...

The developer value proposition obviously matters less for the resale buyer. But it matters because if the value proposition no longer there it will eventually lead to a whole house of cards falling. It really doesn't matter who bought from who, how long they've held it, and whether some owners feel it's paid for itself over the years. MVW makes about 50% of its revenue from timeshare product sales (the rest is essentially management fees, exchanges, rental, and financing which also depends on sales). If they can't sell their product, it won't be good for everyone.

 

[bnoble]

that was not me in the original post asking the original questions...

D'oh! My bad.

But it matters because if the value proposition no longer there it will eventually lead to a whole house of cards falling.

I'm not sure that's true. In particular, I'm not sure it has ever been there for many timeshares, but yet they are still easily sold--and many buyers are happy to own them. I suspect that is partly down to financial illiteracy. I can't count the number of people with college-level educations who cannot grok the time value of money, and straight-line division of the purchase price is a timeshare sales agent's best friend. Maybe there are other reasons as well, I don't know.

I've been hearing that the timeshare sales model is broken and unsustainable for as long as I've been on TUG. Doomsday has yet to occur.

 

[marmite]

I paid my MF's just before Christmas and felt GREAT about it. I thought about all the fantastic trips I've had in the past couple of years and am still happy with what I own. My increases were all under 9% which I thought was very fair.

I have actually a little too many weeks now for my use, so my WorldMark contract may get sold this year. I still see a lot of value in it, but my primary reason for owning it is gone.

 

[Retired2025 aka AlmostRetired]

As long as you have a unit that can be traded as two and you use it, the cost to own will be always be reasonable. Big picture, I average 4 timeshare weeks vacation from the weeks I own, allowing me vacations in 2 bedrooms at a nice location. The cost is about 6000 when I account for club dues, II account and trading fees for the II account. This is about $214 dollars a night. Christmas, I rented 10 days in a 1 br in Palm Desert from an owner with expiring holding points taking advantage of the owners Chairman level discount for less than $95 dollars a day. When I add this to the mix, it is about 185 a night. Ownership for me would seem like a no brainer decision but live is rarely that simple.

I rethink about my ownership question every few years. This has caused me to reshuffled my portfolio two times since jumping into this in 1996. It has never been about MF's. In the past it it was about life and vacation style changes. More recently what has been added to the thinking process is trying to balance the complications of vacation planning having two ball-less married sons (joking, kind of but if you have married sons your might understand) with four careers, an 18 month old granddaughter, our retirement, increasing MF's and the amount of work this all takes.

My most valuable week use to be my Hilton Head week because of our my family's love of HHI. I would use it or rent it. As the MF increases and the profit from renting goes down, the use/rent is not that important because of the consistency of how my 3 bedroom GC gets me into the GO during June/July and August months. Now that I am renting points, my most valuable week is my enrolled 3 bedroom GC. I already locked in 2025 points at 68 cents a point and I have no doubt that come end of year 2024, I will find a fire sale on expiring points to use yearend.

My wife and I are going to be traveling more outside the US as we age and as long as we stay healthy. We still want to have one family vacation. My next re-swizzle will likely be in 2025 by selling my GO and EOY 3 GC br. It will be in part to reduce my MF by 50%. i will still be able to trade into II for two weeks in HHI for family vacations, rent points when I want for inside the US and travel outside of timeshares for outside the US.

Owning timeshares can be a very good value proposition but for me to achieve it, takes a lot of work. This is not a complaint because the results are worth it. As the MF keeps going up and if the rules keep changing making the work harder, I can see a day when I say it isn't worth it.

 

[DanCali]

I'm not sure that's true. In particular, I'm not sure it has ever been there for many timeshares, but yet they are still easily sold--and many buyers are happy to own them. I suspect that is partly down to financial illiteracy. I can't count the number of people with college-level educations who cannot grok the time value of money, and straight-line division of the purchase price is a timeshare sales agent's best friend. Maybe there are other reasons as well, I don't know.

I've been hearing that the timeshare sales model is broken and unsustainable for as long as I've been on TUG. Doomsday has yet to occur.

That's true, but I'm less optimistic for the future. Value is eroding all over the place whether it's rising MFs and Club dues, inventory availability for weeks, and the "hidden restrictions" that make it hard to book Sun-Fri stays with points in many places. I think there are groups of buyers with varying levels of knowledge, sophistication and affluence. There're not going to have the same success selling to all those people now that MFs for 4000 points are over $3000. They're also not going have the same success selling point add-ons or hybrid packages to existing owners who have experienced 30% MF increases over 2 years.

I recently attended a Vistana preservation at Harborside/Atlantis and we spent 45 minutes just talking about MFs. They were ready for that topic... They will always find ways to show people the "value" but it's now come to justifying it by discussing not needing a rental car at Atlantis vs other places, "free" shuttle services that were there since inception, and the cost of Atlantis access that cruise tourists pay, rather than the standard "affordable vacation" spiel. I'm not sure how many takers they still get who pay $70K for a 3BR lockoff with MFs of nearly $5K annually... I'm not seeing those fly off the shelf on Redweek even when a it's a Platinum or Gold season at a 90%-99% discount and they used to sell for $15K-$20K when I first joined TUG.

 

[dougp26364]

I guess it's fair to compare to hotels too once you're an owner.

What I don't like about that is that nobody makes a deal with a hotel to pay $30K-$60K upfront in order to save money in perpetuity (many of us bought resale, but that's less relevant). But that's the timeshare proposition. So if the timeshare MFs are even approaching hotel levels, it means that value proposition is no longer there, and even more so if you're sitting in front of a salesperson. There's a reason salespeople compare MFs to hotel rates - hotels have a profit component built into the rate that timeshares should not have on an ongoing basis.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always said owning a timeshare was similar to driving a luxury car vs the cheapest economy model available. Of course, if you purchase resale, that upfront luxury cost isn’t nearly as prohibitive.

 

[Superchief]

If they keep increasing at double digit rates while my income increases, at best, single digit rates, there will come a point where we can no longer afford the luxury of timeshare. That said, hotel room rates are outrageous in their own right. 7 nights in a hotel room would cost in the neighborhood of $1,400 to $2,100. Likewise RV travel isn’t all that inexpensive when you add in the cost of the gas, storage when not in use and park fees.

If we want to travel I’m afraid there’s not a lot of alternatives that are more attractive after the initial cost of the timeshare has been paid.

I agree with you. We may have to reduce our travel and timeshare ownership if MF fee increases continue to outpace inflation and our discretionary income. The comparison to hotel prices is irrelevant to me because we wouldn't travel if we didn't have our timeshares. There really is no excuse for these excessive increases because there are definitely opportunities to reduce expenses in most MVC resorts.

 

[HedonisticEpicurean]

I have always bought resale and have only paid between $1 or a couple thousand at most not including closing costs. I'm waiting for ROFR on a HGVC but the price is so low vs. sellers original cost 3 years ago that I think it wont pass. The people were desperate to unload. The property is still being actively sold. I'll wait until it clears to post anything on that one.

St. Regis Residences (regardless of the name its still a timeshare with 28 days) : Very high MFs but well worth the expense - wife's favorite
The Phoenician Residences (fancy name for 3 week timeshare): Very high MFs but my families favorite place so well worth the MF
HGVC King's Land: Economical MFs for a 2 bedroom. Own 2 weeks started in 2023. Traded the points and was mostly pleased and consider it a decent value for the little money we paid for the weeks.
Table Rock Landing: Bought 2 weeks years ago for $1 each week (again people were desperate to unload) and have traded the weeks on RCI. Honestly, we have accumulated so many points over the years with RCI and often have problems finding decent properties for the dates we desire. Cheap MFs but questionable value. Our biggest problem with RCI, besides finding good properties when desired is that we often only use a few days, need to cancel, or give the week away to a family member. I almost gave the weeks back a few years ago, but ended up keeping them. There is a good side as we have had numerous memorable trips even if not fully utilized.

A side note: While this forum is targeted toward timeshares and not fractional ownership, I've been following Pacaso 1/8 fractional vacation home ownership over the past few years. Huge MFs. I'm predicting that Pacaso resales will plummet in value like timeshares have over the years. Most Pacaso homes sold at a cost total (8 x fractional price) 2.5 times or more the actual home value. IF a homes value was $1 million the 8 fractions would add up to over 2.5 million. Now, the owners are getting hit with outrages MF, problems booking all their allotment of days, etc. The same issues people with 1/52 ownership of timeshares face. 1/8 or 1/52 it is the same IMO. So, I'm predicting that consumers will be able to buy Pacaso fractional homes for cheap, cheap, cheap. But, hefty MF. We will see.

 

[JIMinNC]

If they keep increasing at double digit rates while my income increases, at best, single digit rates, there will come a point where we can no longer afford the luxury of timeshare. That said, hotel room rates are outrageous in their own right. 7 nights in a hotel room would cost in the neighborhood of $1,400 to $2,100.

Check hotel rates for beach or other resort-type hotels, particularly in Hawaii, the Caribbean and other places. No way you are getting a week for $2000. Lots of Hampton Inns and Courtyards in decent locations are at those levels these days. We spent six nights at a Westin hotel on Grand Cayman last January, and that cost us over $6,000 (but we got free breakfast ). Our hotel in Florence, Italy this past summer was over $800 per night as well.

Timeshare owners like to gripe about maintenance fee increases, but resort hotel rates have risen significantly as well. Our Marriott and Hilton weeks and points still seem like great values to us.

 

[jp10558]

The other thing is just for fun I looked at RedWeek again around Orlando - probably one of the "cheapest" locations, and TUG rentals. I'm still left wondering where these constantly referenced (in this forum and other places online) cheaper than MF week rentals *are*. I was comparing where I own, HGVC Seaworld 2BR and the best case for redweek was about equal to what I pay in MF. There were also a number of listings for hundreds more. So the only place I could see the MFs value being eroded is in the last minute bookings. If you can book and go in the next week or 3 I have seen good deals. But you usually see even better on Last Call or the TUG forums, so most people don't seem to know about those. RCI Extra Vacations also consistently beat out what I've seen for rental prices in my very occasional looks.

I think this is a Marriott problem really, their MFs seem super high to me. But Marriott imploding due to 2xMFing the rest of the industry isn't going to kill the industry IMHO. And I'm not really sure Marriott has a problem - Ferrari is easily 2x "generic fast car", yet they're still a going concern.

 

[DanCali]

Check hotel rates for beach or other resort-type hotels, particularly in Hawaii, the Caribbean and other places. No way you are getting a week for $2000. Lots of Hampton Inns and Courtyards in decent locations are at those levels these days. We spent six nights at a Westin hotel on Grand Cayman last January, and that cost us over $6,000 (but we got free breakfast ). Our hotel in Florence, Italy this past summer was over $800 per night as well.

Timeshare owners like to gripe about maintenance fee increases, but resort hotel rates have risen significantly as well. Our Marriott and Hilton weeks and points still seem like great values to us.

You're talking weeks. But even so the MFs on the Westins in Hawaii for a 1BR are around $3000 ($400+/night) and an owner probably had to spend $30K+ upfront to buy it from the developer. What's the opportunity cost on that upfront cost?

With hotels you don't tie up tens on thousands upfront and at best recoup your cost (if you bought resale).

And don't forget that they hope new buyers are not aware of weeks or resale market. The current value proposition from MVC for a 1BR Maui is about 4500 points ($70,000) with MFs of $3600 ($500+/night). How many people would think that's a good deal? And also have the money to pay that?

 

[dougp26364]

Check hotel rates for beach or other resort-type hotels, particularly in Hawaii, the Caribbean and other places. No way you are getting a week for $2000. Lots of Hampton Inns and Courtyards in decent locations are at those levels these days. We spent six nights at a Westin hotel on Grand Cayman last January, and that cost us over $6,000 (but we got free breakfast ). Our hotel in Florence, Italy this past summer was over $800 per night as well.

Timeshare owners like to gripe about maintenance fee increases, but resort hotel rates have risen significantly as well. Our Marriott and Hilton weeks and points still seem like great values to us.

I actually had the opportunity to do just this for Kauai when our SIL got the dates wrong and booked their flight a day early. The rates were $600/night for a hotel room. We booked one night for them at KBC for them. The cost in MF’s was somewhere around $160 for the night.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

OP has incomplete question. Add in resort fees, exchange fees, all the other obnoxious fees. Redo the calculation.
For anyplace where resort fees are high and you don't have to pay them as an owner, that dominates the calculation.