Is Wyndham right for me?

[JLTag8969]

I posted this topic in the HGVC forum but have some been reading up on Wyndham for the last few days.

First off, thanks to TUGBBS for being a great source of information and having saved me lots of money since I discovered this place 2 years ago.


Over a year ago I had seriously looked into purchasing a HGVC timeshare. After crunching the numbers, I concluded It was not right for me. Fast forward to December 2019, my personal situation has changed. I have a business that requires me to travel to Orlando and surroundings and Vegas on a monthly basis. Therefore, once a month, I am travelling for approximately a week. What I have been doing is renting out timeshares through fellow TUG members.
Given this frequent travelling, I am now thinking it would make more financial sense for me to buy a timeshare and reserve additional days/weeks for cash as needed.

I have crunched the numbers and have spent about $2500 in the last 6 months for about 28 days of usage.


Looking for your opinion on my situation and my logic.


More to come!


Cheers

 

[JLTag8969]

I have a ton of wyndham points if your doing Otlando and Vegas maybe we could work out a deal to help offset my maintenance fees?

 

[schoolmarm]

OK, I have a different take on this as I travel for business quite a lot and I use my Wyndham ownership for this. I need an invoice, so I typically use up my use year points and then make express period (60 days ahead) reservations by NOT borrowing points from my next year (as I would do for a personal reservation) BUT by "renting" from Wyndham at $12/1000 points. If you are staying Sunday-Thursday at older resorts in small units, this is economical. You can also charge the Housekeeping points if you are out. They are $2.25/1000. This is what I do if I need an invoice for my university to reimburse for my lodging.

YOU don't need an invoice, and I'm assuming that you don't need a large room and that you will maybe not even need the whole week, but perhaps Sunday through Friday (saving an expensive Saturday night stay). I love that I don't have to stay for a whole week with Wyndham!

Orlando resorts:
Orlando International Resort Club--only 2 Bedroom units. Full weeks run 126-175K (subtract 12-21K if you don't need Saturday)

Star Island 1 BR Suites Full weeks are only 77-105K (subtract 8-12K if you don't need Saturday)
1 BR Deluxe--Full week 84-128 K (subtract 9-15K if you don't need Saturday)
There are also 2BR Deluxe for 126-175K (minus 15-21K if no Saturday)
The 3 BR is 154-224K (minus 18-27K if no Saturday)

Bonnet Creek has a more complicated points chart
1 BR Deluxe is 84-166K (subtract 9-20K if no Saturday)
There are also 2, 3, and 4 BR deluxes and 1, 2, 3, and 3 BR Presidential units.

Cyprus Palms is the resort that costs the least points:
I BR Suite is 63-94,500 K (subtract 7-10,500 if no Saturday)
There are also 1 BR Deluxe and 1 BR and 2 BR units. Some lock-offs.

LAS VEGAS:
Wyndham Desert Blue
Studio: 175-203K for full week, subtract 21-24K if no Saturday.
1 BR: 210-224K for week, subtract 25-27 if no Saturday
1 BR Deluxe 224-250K for week, Subtract 27-30 if no Saturday.
There are also 2, 3 BR Deluxes and 1, 2, and 3 BR Presidentials

Wyndham Grand Desert:
1 BR Suite 112-133K for the week, minus13-16K for no Saturday
1 BR Deluxe 126-154K for the week, minus 15-18K for no Saturday
There are also 2 BR, 3 BR Deluxes and 2, 3, and 4 BR Presidentials.

Wyndham Tropicana Only 2 BR and 2 BR Deluxe
2 BR 172,200-205,000 for the week, subtract 20,600-24,400 for no Saturday
2 BR Deluxe 205,000-237,800 for the week, Subtract 24,400-28,600 for no Saturday.

I would suggest buying a low-mainantence fee resort resale ($1-1000). I have a couple of these and you can get something with a $4-5 per 1000 MF. Lets say that you have $5 MF. Your Orlando 6-day reservation would only "cost" $270-420 in a 1 BR small room. Las Vegas would only "cost" $495-585. These figures don't include Housekeeping in case you run out of free credits. But if you stay in Studio and 1 BR, you might come out close to even.

If you want to look at the point charts the online directory is here http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1819/index.php#/94

 

[danor71]

OK, I have a different take on this as I travel for business quite a lot and I use my Wyndham ownership for this. I need an invoice, so I typically use up my use year points and then make express period (60 days ahead) reservations by NOT borrowing points from my next year (as I would do for a personal reservation) BUT by "renting" from Wyndham at $12/1000 points. If you are staying Sunday-Thursday at older resorts in small units, this is economical. You can also charge the Housekeeping points if you are out. They are $2.25/1000. This is what I do if I need an invoice for my university to reimburse for my lodging.

YOU don't need an invoice, and I'm assuming that you don't need a large room and that you will maybe not even need the whole week, but perhaps Sunday through Friday (saving an expensive Saturday night stay). I love that I don't have to stay for a whole week with Wyndham!

Orlando resorts:
Orlando International Resort Club--only 2 Bedroom units. Full weeks run 126-175K (subtract 12-21K if you don't need Saturday)

Star Island 1 BR Suites Full weeks are only 77-105K (subtract 8-12K if you don't need Saturday)
1 BR Deluxe--Full week 84-128 K (subtract 9-15K if you don't need Saturday)
There are also 2BR Deluxe for 126-175K (minus 15-21K if no Saturday)
The 3 BR is 154-224K (minus 18-27K if no Saturday)

Bonnet Creek has a more complicated points chart
1 BR Deluxe is 84-166K (subtract 9-20K if no Saturday)
There are also 2, 3, and 4 BR deluxes and 1, 2, 3, and 3 BR Presidential units.

Cyprus Palms is the resort that costs the least points:
I BR Suite is 63-94,500 K (subtract 7-10,500 if no Saturday)
There are also 1 BR Deluxe and 1 BR and 2 BR units. Some lock-offs.

LAS VEGAS:
Wyndham Desert Blue
Studio: 175-203K for full week, subtract 21-24K if no Saturday.
1 BR: 210-224K for week, subtract 25-27 if no Saturday
1 BR Deluxe 224-250K for week, Subtract 27-30 if no Saturday.
There are also 2, 3 BR Deluxes and 1, 2, and 3 BR Presidentials

Wyndham Grand Desert:
1 BR Suite 112-133K for the week, minus13-16K for no Saturday
1 BR Deluxe 126-154K for the week, minus 15-18K for no Saturday
There are also 2 BR, 3 BR Deluxes and 2, 3, and 4 BR Presidentials.

Wyndham Tropicana Only 2 BR and 2 BR Deluxe
2 BR 172,200-205,000 for the week, subtract 20,600-24,400 for no Saturday
2 BR Deluxe 205,000-237,800 for the week, Subtract 24,400-28,600 for no Saturday.

I would suggest buying a low-mainantence fee resort resale ($1-1000). I have a couple of these and you can get something with a $4-5 per 1000 MF. Lets say that you have $5 MF. Your Orlando 6-day reservation would only "cost" $270-420 in a 1 BR small room. Las Vegas would only "cost" $495-585. These figures don't include Housekeeping in case you run out of free credits. But if you stay in Studio and 1 BR, you might come out close to even.

If you want to look at the point charts the online directory is here http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1819/index.php#/94

Thanks for that response. I rarely stay the Saturday unless I have Sunday meetings or events (Vegas sometimes!) but it is the exception. So I can definitely relate to what you're saying.

 

[Grammarhero]

Rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF. from the legendary @dgalati

 

[bogey21]

Another reason to rent is that you won't be limited to Wyndham. You can also rent at HGVC, Marriott, Hyatt (or who knows what other) Resorts...

George

 

[Jan M.]

Since you are self employed and looking to keep your expenses down you might want to consider another option. Do you only want to stay at Wyndham resorts or are you open to other resorts? If you are, I would consider finding something at Grandview Las Vegas but only in points not a fixed week. RCI is the exchange company for Grandview.

Grandview's maintenance fees are some of the best for the number of points you can get for a week. Take a look at the picture below to see how many point the two higher point weeks get in both the one and two bedrooms. The 2020 maintenance fees for a two bedroom are $835 and a one bedroom is $417.50 no matter how many points the week gets. Obviously you would want either a 122k or 98k point two bedroom week or a 61k or 49k point one bedroom week to get the most bang for your maintenance fee bucks. You can even find biannual and triennial weeks. You can sometimes pick up a points week at Grandview for just the closing costs, $215 approximately through LT Transfers and the resort transfer fee. $250. You would need to set up a new points account with RCI and that will cost you $222 which includes the first year membership fee in RCI. However sometimes you can find someone who no longer wants their RCI points account and along with the week will transfer the account to you. In that case it would cost $98. You get the best deal on your RCI annual membership fee if you pay for multiple years at once. Five years gets you the best deal and is $499 vs paying for just one year which is $124 at this time. So over the five year period you would save $121 by paying for five years at once.

For every week you book with your points you will pay the $239 exchange fee. In Orlando and Las Vegas it is pretty easy to find discounted point weeks within 1-5 weeks of the check in date. We live in Florida, go to Orlando quite a bit and I get us weeks for 4900-7500 points. We have stayed at the Wyndham resorts with weeks I've booked through RCI. Bonnet Creek, Star Island, Cypress Palms, Reunion. We stay at Silver Lake resort and Vacation Village at Parkway too. There are so many resorts in Orlando to pick from that I've never not been able to find something. We also like going to Las Vegas and there is plenty of availability there too but not quite as large a selection of resorts.

Grandview is part of the Vacation Village family of properties. As an owner at Grandview you will get two extra vacation weeks each year within 45 days of check in. These weeks work the same way as the Last Call weeks with RCI. You will pay $239-$269 but you won't use any points. The different between the Last Call weeks and the Vacation Village extra weeks is that there is more inventory in the VV extra weeks. RCI also frequently has sales and again you use no points. Some sales are better than others in price and how far out the dates go. The prices on the sale weeks run $239-$269 typically.

So how many weeks can I get if I have 98,000 Grandview points with RCI? I can get 13-14 weeks a year staying in Orlando and Las Vegas pretty easily as long as I take the time to look. Even booking with our Wyndham points often requires me to keep my eyes open Not all of our stays are 7500 points because if we stay at Vacation Village at Parkway I get those weeks for 4900 points. The same thing with weeks at Grandview in Las Vegas. There are many times I use the sale weeks or VV extra weeks and save my points. There are a number of people who just have a biannual one bedroom week, maintenance fees for 2020 would be $208.75 or a triennial week, mfs $136.17, and primarily book the Last Call weeks, sale weeks, their two extra weeks. However to make it very clear unless I have a sale week that is farther out then I'm booking those discounted point weeks, Last Call weeks and the two VV extra weeks stays at 45 days or less out

When using your points you can book less than full week stays at some resorts however it is usually more cost effective to book full week stays. With RCI the weeks begin on Friday, Saturday or Sunday. If you didn't need the entire 7 night stay you wouldn't have to use the whole thing. With the Wyndham resorts you would want to make sure you call them if you wouldn't be arriving on the check in day and I would recommend doing that with any resort. Leaving early isn't a problem.

It is cheaper for us to stay at the Wyndham resorts with our Grandview RCI points than it is to use our Wyndham points. Right this very minute I am logged into my RCI points account and I can book a three bedroom/three bath unit at Reunion for 7500 points for the week of January 10-17. Say I own a 98,000 point two bedroom week at Grandview. My maintenance fees are $835 and because I pay 5 years at once my annual membership fee is $99.80 so an annual expense of $934.80 for 2020. Divide that by 98,000 points it comes out to $0.0095 per point. So that 7500 point stay costs me $71.54 plus the $239 exchange fee. $310.54 for the week. If I use my Wyndham points that same week is high season and 215,000 points. Our maintenance fees are lower compared to a lot of other owners at I think $5.47 per thousand points for 2020. So that same reservation at Reunion using our Wyndham points would cost $1176.05. Star Island and Cypress Palms are the least points to stay at of the Wyndham resorts in Orlando. But even at one of them the one bedroom deluxe is still going to be 84,000 points in value season which is $459.48 for the week. 105,000 points in high season so $574.35 and 128,000 points in prime season so $700.16. I can usually find a one bedroom deluxe and sometimes even a two bedroom deluxe in the discounted point weeks at both Star Island and Cypress Palms. The one bedroom deluxe units in the, sale weeks and Last Call weeks are usually pretty easy to find. It is pretty rare not to at least be able to find a one bedroom suite. We've on occasion stayed in the one bedroom suites. Plus there are a whole lot more resorts to chose from than just the Wyndham resorts.

You have to take into consideration that with Wyndham points if you are staying as frequently as it sounds like you do then you will need a lot of points not just a minimal number of points and be locked into paying a lot of maintenance fees. Wyndham gives you a certain number of free transaction fees based on how many points you own. But you will pay $19 each time you book a reservation when your free ones are gone. If you go the Grandview route and are using your two Vacation Village extra weeks, the sale weeks and last call weeks none of them require you to use your points so you aren't locked into paying a lot of maintenance fees. It is more of a pay as you go thing.

I could see something like this possibly working very well for you. At least it's an option to consider.

 

[SNA27]

In your example, his numbers will improve greatly, if he buys a VIP membership! Which can be capitalized as per IRS rules that apply to Country Club/Golf Club initiations fees or private planes that big company CEOs enjoy!

Like I said before, if your business can afford it and justify the business use, take advantage of your sweet spot! This is not gaming the system or tax evasion which are illegal. This is legal tax avoidance within the rules set by IRS!

 

[dgalati]

In your example, his numbers will improve greatly, if he buys a VIP membership! Which can be capitalized as per IRS rules that apply to Country Club/Golf Club initiations fees or private planes that big company CEOs enjoy!

Like I said before, if your business can afford it and justify the business use, take advantage of your sweet spot! This is not gaming the system or tax evasion which are illegal. This is legal tax avoidance within the rules set by IRS!


View attachment 15855

Tax avoidance has a better ring to it then a Tax loophole. What is your opinion on the use of resale points with VIP benefits?

 

[dgalati]

Rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF. from the legendary @dgalati

Rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF. from the legendary @dgalati

Unless you buy up to VIP Owning would cost you more then what you are paying now.You rented 4 weeks at $2500 or about $625 per week. It would cost more owning and paying maintenance fees without factoring in your sunk cost of purchasing. Grand Desert maintenance fee is $4,73/1000 . One week costs 154,000 points or 154 x 4.73 = $730 cost per week. You can rent from a VIP for less then $400 if they pass along the 50% discount if you are booking in the 60 day discount window.

I already covered this option in post #7. No need to beat a dead horse.

 

[SmithOp]

Unless you buy up to VIP Owning would cost you more then what you sre paying now.You rented 4 weeks at $2500 or about $625 per week. It would cost more owning and paying maintenance fees without factoring in your sunk cost of purchasing. Grand Desert maintenance fee is $4,73/1000 . One week costs 154,000 points or 154 x 4.73 = $730 cost per week. You can rent from a VIP for less then $400 if they pass along the 50% discount if you are booking in the 60 day discount window.

That a couple of big IFs, would love to have a copy of your contact list for these VIP owners that rent at cost inside 60 days. The best I’ve seen are the LMR posts where the limit is now $800/week.


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[dgalati]

That a couple of big IFs, would love to have a copy of your contact list for these VIP owners that rent at cost inside 60 days. The best I’ve seen are the LMR posts where the limit is now $800/week.


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The op rented for less then his maintenance fees would have been at $625 per week average. IF they Pass along the saving is common practice among many VIP owners renting points they can't use. They are trying to cover the burden of paying maintenance fees. Many are not trying to profit especially when they are using the 50% discount window with resale points.

 

[dgalati]

That a couple of big IFs, would love to have a copy of your contact list for these VIP owners that rent at cost inside 60 days. The best I’ve seen are the LMR posts where the limit is now $800/week.


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I have a ton of wyndham points if your doing Otlando and Vegas maybe we could work out a deal to help offset my maintenance fees?

This is a good example of my above post where someone has more points then needed and is just trying to cover maintenance fees.

 

[SNA27]

If the entire purchase can be deducted using section 179 or most of it, the tax savings will be hard to beat!
If you book within 60 days VIP benefits are great! You might even get Wyndham Grand Chicago Riverfront if you look on the 60th night before check-in!
So, instead of resale, VIPG or VIPP at the lowest cost with PIC's is what I would do! Ymmv!
Of course, renting points may be good way to start! $400/month is not much! In silicon valley, that wouldn't even get you 2 days!

 

[dgalati]

If the entire purchase can be deducted using section 179 or most of it, the tax savings will be hard to beat!
If you book within 60 days VIP benefits are great! You might even get Wyndham Grand Chicago Riverfront if you look on the 60th night before check-in!
So, instead of resale, VIPG or VIPP at the lowest cost with PIC's is what I would do! Ymmv!
Of course, renting points may be good way to start! $400/month is not much! In silicon valley, that wouldn't even get you 2 days!

No chance on Wyndham Grand Chicago. I hear it is no longer a Wyndham option for booking.

 

[Jan M.]

We are also Wyndham platinum owners and I make excellent use of the discount and upgrades. Along with our Grandview RCI points it gives us the best of both worlds.

However I'm still leaning on the side of going the Grandview Las Vegas route IF he will make what he finds work for him. But finding what you need with Wyndham can have it's challenges too. I'm guessing he doesn't typically know his travel schedule so far in advance that he can get a certain resort or resorts every time he wants them. I got the impression he is willing to be flexible about where he stays or I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to help him.

SNA27, the cost of this discounted reservation at Reunion is your attachment is still $588.03 vs the $310.54 for the same week using the maintenance fees of $5.47 per thousand in my example. But unless he has a larger family and takes them with him on his business trips he doesn't need a three bedroom/three bath unit. Although it's fun to have one when you can book it for 7500 points and a total cost of $310.54. If he gets the 13 weeks with the 98,000 Grandview points that I costed out, his total cost is $4.041.80. If you use our approximate 2020 Wyndham maintenance fees of $5.47 per thousand points that $4.041.80 would get 738.903 Wyndham points a year. That means to make all things equal booking 13 weeks with those Wyndham points he would have to average 56,838 points per full week stay. While it is possible it isn't probable for him because he probably can't just travel in the lower point weeks nor count on being able to find the cheapest point units. Another thing to consider is the buy in cost. I gave away two 98,000 point weeks at Grandview last year with the taker paying the closing costs and transfer fees. Once in a while you can find someone willing to split those fees or pay them if you have the time and patience to wait and watch. Finding 738,903 points or something in that range with maintenance fees even equal to $5.47 typically goes for higher price. Again it can happen just doesn't happen often. You can get cheaply higher maintenance fee points but then your long range costs are higher. And again you are locked into paying those maintenance fees rather than using the Grandview point pay as you go route I laid out for him.

My reason for pushing going the Grandview point route is because he is self employed. For many people who are self employed their income can fluctuate and they prefer to limit their financial obligations as much as they can. For many self employed people taking time off for a family vacation, an illness or a family situation means they have to sacrifice being able to work and make the money they or their family needs. Being more in control of their expenses and limiting them makes their lives a whole lot less stressful. Going with a biannual or triennial week and primarily making use of the Vacation Village two extra weeks, the Last Call weeks and sale weeks would keep his expenses down even more.

The one piece of information I don't have is if he really needs full week stays or if checking in on Sundays and checking out on Friday would work for him. I'm adding the point chart from Cypress Palms to demonstrate how many points you can save by just staying Sunday-Friday and not Friday and Saturday nights. I have a friend who is platinum VIP and stays almost every week Sunday-Friday at either Cypress Palms or Star Island, getting his 50% discount and free upgrade. My friend could potentially stay at Cypress Palms, Sunday-Friday, for all 52 weeks for 1,143,750 points. His maintenance fees are about $6 per thousand so those potential 260 nights would cost him $6862.50 or $26.39 a night. An owner who isn't VIP would need twice as many points and the cost would be twice as much. However a one bedroom suite which is all a non VIP owner would get for those same points would still only cost $52.79 a night at the same $6 per thousand points maintenance fees as my friend has.

Because we are VIP I don't have to think about housekeeping credits and reservation transaction fees. So using my friend's hypothetical 52 weeks a year of Sunday-Friday stays a non VIP owner would use 3276 housekeeping credits and with 2,287,500 points would get 2287 free ones. The cost of the additional 989 housekeeping credits needed would be $2,225.25. Non VIP owners get one housekeeping credit for every thousand points. The cost of extra housekeeping credits are $2.25 each and a one bedroom of any size would be 63 credits for each stay. The non VIP owner gets one free reservation transaction fee for every 77,000 points owned. That would be 29 free reservation transactions and paying for 23 of them at $19 each so $437.

If he would decide that going with Wyndham points or even building a VIP account is what he wants, there are some people here on TUG who have been fantastic about helping others.

I think we are giving him a lot of good information to consider.

 

[danor71]

@Jan M. , thanks for your detailed responses. Based on the feedback, i had accepted that renting was my best option. I do on occasion take a Friday Saturday especially for vegas or if i want to take advantage of a weekend. I will digest your info and do some more calculation.

 

[CO skier]

Looking for your opinion on my situation and my logic.

WorldMark by Wyndham has 3 resorts in Las Vegas. Any WorldMark owner may take advantage of cash Bonus Time or Inventory Specials. I charged these cash stays on my business card for more than 10 years. The accounting department never questioned it. It saved the company money versus hotels in the areas.

Bonus Time (BT) is up to 14 days in advance, limited to 4 nights per reservation and 1 BT reservation at a time unless reserved within 48 hours of arrival.

Inventory Special (IS) is up to 60 days in advance, limited to 14 nights per reservation and up to 6 IS reservations at a time

These are the per night costs at the 2020 cash rate for a 1 bedroom. There is an $80/night minimum charge (tax additional).

WM Spencer Street – a small resort that was converted from a condo development. I like staying here because it feels like home instead of a Las Vegas resort. Less than a 30-second walk to the car instead of a ride down an elevator and a hike across half an acre of parking lot. Conveniently located a block off Flamingo road and east of the Las Vegas Strip.

Monday – Thursday $80

Sunday - $80

Friday and Saturday - $104.40



WM Tropicana – more units than Spencer St. and with more of a resort feel. Conveniently located on Tropicana Ave. near I-5 west of the Las Vegas Strip.

Monday – Thursday $93.60

Sunday - $108

Friday and Saturday - $136.80



WM Las Vegas Blvd. – this is the full resort experience. Lazy river, playground, etc. A short drive from McCarran airport on the south end of Las Vegas Blvd.

Monday – Thursday $80

Sunday - $100.80

Friday and Saturday - $115.20

Use the dropdown menu here to explore these and other WorldMark resorts.

https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/resorts/ve/

Inventory is wide open for these resorts for the next few months, so they are currently on Inventory Special for Mid Week (Sun. – Thurs.) reservations. You would have no difficulty booking a stay within the next 60 days as an owner.

You could become an owner for 5,000 – 6,000 credits, but the recommendation is 10,000 credits and 5,000 credit increments after that for maintenance fee efficiency. One free housekeeping is included with every 10,000 credits of ownership awarded annually. Housekeeping charges are included in BT and IS specials and do not count against your annual allotment.

It is easy to buy a 10,000 credit WorldMark membership on eBay for about $2,000.

WorldMark owners think WorldMark offers the most flexibility of any timeshare. It might be a nice addition to your options.

I once needed four nights at a WorldMark resort using Bonus Time. I booked the three nights available in a 2 bedroom (still cheaper than the local Holiday Inn Express where I stay if I cannot get into WorldMark). I kept checking availability a few times each day, and a 1 bedroom for my final night became available while I was staying in the 2 bedroom, so I booked it, but kept watching availability. Later that day a 2 bedroom in my unit type became available, so I called into WorldMark. Because I wanted to upgrade from a 1 to a 2 bedroom, they changed the reservation and I was able to stay in the same unit for the whole four days. Being able to deal directly with WorldMark as an owner has its advantages.

 

[danor71]

@ CO skier, thanks for the info. More data to analyze!