I Can't Believe I Bought Another Horn.

[AwayWeGo]

Yamaha (Japan) Is Outstanding.

While my son & daughter-in-law & grandson are (timeshare) vacationing in Orlando FL, I've been checking the Orlando section of Craig's List for French horn bargains.

Last week I spied a complete but damaged Yamaha double horn (B-Flat & F) for an asking price that was reasonable in light of the banged-up condition of the horn shown in the Orlando Craig's List photos. (An obvious French Horn Rescue candidate.)

I forwarded the ad to my son, with the idea in mind of asking him to pay for the horn & pick it up in Orlando in the event I reached a deal via E-Mail with the Orlando Craig's List seller. He said OK.

I made the seller a semi-ridiculous offer. Via return E-Mail, he accepted. My son got directions to the seller's location & arranged a time for payment & pick-up, which occurred Sunday evening.

The horn has been in my son's possession ever since. He looked at it closely & determined that it's a Yamaha YHR-667, a highly regarded "Geyer wrap" professional model.

"Geyer wrap" means the 4th valve is located next to the 3rd valve. By contrast, on "Kruspe wrap" double horns the 4th valve is right next to the 1st valve. ("Wrap" in horn-speak refers to the way the horn's tubing is wound round & round.) Both 4th valves are thumb-operated, via short linkage on Kruspe-style horns & by longer linkage on Geyers. Which is better? I don't know. By me it's mox nix even though plenty of horn players out there have strong feelings on the subject -- not unlike people's arguments over the relative merits of iPhone & android mobile devices.

The next task is to figure out how to get the horn from Orlando FL to McLean VA without unduly inconveniencing my son & his family, while also avoiding any airline baggage fees. Current thinking is to see if we can pick up the horn at a timeshare resort where we'll be staying later this month -- if (& it's a big if) someone at the resort will say OK. Fortunately, it's only a relatively compact French horn & not a humongous tuba or bulky bass drum.

Once the horn gets here, I will get it into the hands of my reliable local horn fixer as soon as I can for repair & restoration -- i.e., mainly smoothing out the dents. After that, I'll have fun deciding whether the Orlando Craig's List Yamaha YHR-667 is a keeper or a flipper.

Meanwhile, I still have 3 Conn 6D clones, all 3 made by different manufacturers & none made by C.G. Conn, that are all ready to flip right now. Two are on eBay currently & all 3 are on Craig's List locally. There's not much interest in any of them so far. Maybe that will change when the schools start up again after summer vacation. We'll see.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Just A Flipper, Not A Dealer.

I think of TUG-BBS as an insular little world of timeshare fans. But it goes beyond that.

Yesterday, out of the blue, I received an E-Mail message from somebody looking for a French horn for his young teen son. The guy contacted me at the suggestion of someone who had read a bunch of these horn-flipping entries on TUG-BBS.

I didn't have exactly what the person wanted for his son, so in my E-Mail reply I not only mentioned my current crop of flippers, but also made a suggestion for a great horn at a great price from another source. I included a link to the horn maker's web site & (in follow-up E-Mail) a link to an attractively priced example that was on eBay at the time. (By attractively priced, I mean $50 less than I paid the same horn maker for another horn just like that back in January.)

I sent a CC of my reply to the person who recommended me as a potential source after reading a bunch of my TUG-BBS horn-flipping entries. He then chimed with a ringing endorsement of the very same horn I suggested.

The person looking for a horn for his son must have gone for that double-barreled recommendation. When I checked eBay a few hours later, looking for the recommended horn, it was no longer there -- gone, snapped up in a flash "buy it now."

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Yamaha's Professional-Grade Geyer-Knopf Model Double French Horn Now Being Repaired.

Yamaha (Japan) Is Outstanding.

The Yamaha YHR-667 from Orlando FL Craig's List that my son bought for me while he was timeshare vacationing in the area is now in the hands of my regular horn repair professional back home.

The YHR-667 is a candidate for French Horn Rescue. That is, it was a really nice horn before it got semi-trashed by a previous owner via carelessness & neglect. (I'd hate to think any of the damage was done intentionally.)

Looking forward to playing it once it comes back from the instrument repair workshop. I've never had a pro-quality Geyer-Knopf horn before.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Yamaha YHR-667 Is So Outstanding That I Bought A Yamaha YHR-567 Also.

YHR-667 is a candidate for French Horn Rescue.

Nice fixable horns keep turning up on Craig's List, so I keep on buying (some of) them. The latest, a Yamaha YHR-567, is a Geyer/Knopf-style horn, like Yamaha YHR-667.

YHR-567, however, is marketed as "intermediate" while Yamaha offers YHR-667 as a "custom" or professional instrument.

I'm not sure how reliable such designations are. The way a horn plays is the thing, not what the catalog reading material says about it.

Once both horns come back from repairs, then maybe we'll see.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[theo]

A question from the clueless...

...Yamaha double horn (B-Flat & F)...

Hi Alan:

The quoted partial line above caught my attention and confused me, although I will readily admit to knowing nothing about horns.
I know a bit about music from playing guitar and keyboards however, so I am puzzled by the concept of one horn being in two keys.
Not to sound like a complete dunce, but how is that even possible?

 

[AwayWeGo]

Push The 1st Valve Down, The Music Goes Round & Round O-O-O-O-O-O & It Comes Out Here

The quoted partial line above caught my attention and confused me, although I will readily admit to knowing nothing about horns.
I know a bit about music from playing guitar and keyboards however, so I am puzzled by the concept of one horn being in two keys.
Not to sound like a complete dunce, but how is that even possible?

Have you ever seen (or heard of) a double-bell euphonium ?

That's a (mostly) obsolete instrument that was in vogue among the concert band low brass crowd back in the John Philip Sousa era. The idea was to equip the instrument with a trombone-size bell flare for notes up there in the trombone range, plus a 2nd larger bell flare for notes in the lower range. Alongside the instrument's regular 1-2-3 valves, there is 1 more valve whose sole purpose is to direct the airflow to whichever bell flare the player wants to use, the larger or the smaller. (Some euphoniums have 1-2-3-4 valves, so the double-bell versions of those have a 5th valve for switching between bell flares.)

In the world of French horns, the standard professional models & advanced student horns ("double horns") are built in 2 keys -- F & B-flat. All the sound comes out through just 1 large bell flare, & the air all goes in through 1 mouthpiece. In between are 2 complete sets of partly parallel airways. The player selects 1 or the other by using a thumb-operated 4th valve to pitch the horn in F or in Bb, whichever is needed to play the music best. Each of 1-2-3 valves is made with parallel dual airways, 1 for Bb & another for F. There are 2 sets of side by side valve slides -- the air detours that temporarily lengthen the horn when a valve lever is down. There are 2 main tuning slides, Bb & F. With all that extra hardware, a double horn is lots heavier than a single horn.

Single horns come in both Bb & F. Bb singles are shorter in overall tubing length than F singles.

Not all 4-valve French horns are doubles. Some single Bb horns are equipped with a 4th valve used to play hand-stopped notes in tune. That's not needed on F horns, only because the acoustics of hand-stopping a longer horn in F just happen to work out right to produce that mute-like effect more or less in tune, depending on the player's accuracy & skill.

After sending this in, I'll look up some internet pictures of single & double horns -- & maybe a double-bell euphonium.

Aren't you glad you asked ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[theo]

Thanks!

Aren't you glad you asked ?

Actually, I am glad I asked --- and thanks for the detailed explanation. Any day learning something new is a day that's off to a good start.

Also, I can now add the word "euphonium" to my vocabulary. I'm not entirely sure how I could or would work it into everyday conversation, but I'll certainly be ready if the occasion should ever arise.

 

[AwayWeGo]

1 Never Know, Do 1 ?

Also, I can now add the word "euphonium" to my vocabulary. I'm not entirely sure how I could or would work it into everyday conversation, but I'll certainly be ready if the occasion should ever arise.

-- hotlinked --
5-Valve Double Bell Euphonium.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

4-Valve Euphonium.

-- hotlinked --

(Slanted 4th Valve Partly Concealed In Back.)​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Yamaha YHR-667 Double French Horn -- F & B-Flat.

-- hotlinked --

Geyer/Knopf style -- 4th Valve Next To 3rd Valve.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Holton Farkas Model Double French Horn.

-- hotlinked --

Kruspe style -- 4th Valve Next To 1st Valve. ​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Yamaha YHR-322 Single French Horn In B-Flat.

-- hotlinked --

Thumb-operated 4th Valve.
(For Playing Hand-Stopped Notes In Tune.)​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Yamaha YHR-314 Single French Horn -- Key Of F.

-- hotlinked --

Plain Vanilla 3-Valve Single F Horn.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Don't Just Take My Word For It . . .

. . . click here for a brief video featuring a nice lady talking about the F & Bb sides of her double French horn.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Vienna Horn -- Semi-Obsolete Single Horn In F.

-- hotlinked --
Vienna Horn.​

Horns of this style are still used, with masterful results, by the horn players of the Vienna Philharmonic -- & nowhere else that I know of. Vienna horns are said to have a rich sound that horns of modern design cannot equal, so that orchestra still uses them even though they're reputed to be much more difficult to play than today's double (& triple) horns. The design is from the mid-19th century. Because they are still in (limited) use today, they are still made by a few instrument makers. (That is, the antique-style horns still being played are not necessarily actual antiques.)

Click here for a U-Tube video featuring fabulous playing by amazing hornists performing on Vienna horns.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[theo]

Dawn breaks...

All the sound comes out through just 1 large bell flare, & the air all goes in through 1 mouthpiece. In between are 2 complete sets of partly parallel airways. The player selects 1 or the other by operating a thumb-operated 4th valve to pitch the horn in F or in Bb...

This is clearly the important detail that I could not / did not initially comprehend or conceptualize.
I appreciate your efforts in explaining same, further reinforced by the video whose link you thoughtfully provided. Thanks again.

 

[AwayWeGo]

You're Welcome.

Thanks again.

Don't mention it.

Thanks for an opportunity to ride my hobby horse right here on TUG-BBS.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[vacationtime1]

Actually, I am glad I asked --- and thanks for the detailed explanation. Any day learning something new is a day that's off to a good start.

Also, I can now add the word "euphonium" to my vocabulary. I'm not entirely sure how I could or would work it into everyday conversation, but I'll certainly be ready if the occasion should ever arise.

+1 (thanks to each of you for asking and answering)

 

[AwayWeGo]

Flipping Season Returning ?

Until lately, the rescued & repaired horns around here have been selling just about as fast as I've been listing'm on eBay or Craig's List or both.

Now I'm backlogged with three -- 3 -- outstanding French Horn Rescue Conn 6D clones, 1 by York (Grand Rapids, Michigan) + 1 by Buescher (Elkhart, Indiana) + 1 by Anborg (Como, Italy).

York clone of Conn 6D is flipped -- out of here as of earlier this week.

A former university ensemble player (15 years ago) wants to get back into horn playing & join a nearby local community orchestra. The horn he chose will be ideal for that purpose.

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Dead Ends In Brass Instrument Development.

-- hotlinked --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

Modern French horns, euphoniums, & other now standard brass instruments didn't get to be the way they are all at once. Their evolution from primitive ram horns & conch shells of antiquity to their current forms happened step by step, with some false starts & blind alleys along the way.

The instruments shown above were made by Adolphe Sax (1814-1894). His best known & most enduring contribution to the world of music is the invention & development of the saxophone. But that's not all. He also experimented creatively with the brass instrument family. The multiple-valve & multiple-bell instruments shown up top are Adolphe Sax's attempts to get around the phenomenon of valve swindle.

Attached to each brass instrument valve, then & now, is a length of tubing that effectively lengthens the instrument by routing the air through an extra loop when the valve is down. Each 1 used alone is pretty much in tune. Using more than 1 at a time can easily make the pitch too sharp. That's because even though the length of each loop is calculated to be OK by itself, their combined length is always too short. That's valve swindle. Flugelhorn 3rd-valve slide triggers & trumpet-cornet 1st & 3rd valve-slide extenders today are the most common ways of dealing with it. Whatever Adolphe Sax's odd prototypes may have offered in intonational precision, they nevertheless were lacking in simplicity & practicality. That's why today they're found only in museums. So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Note Of Clarification.

Have you ever seen (or heard of) a double-bell euphonium ?

That's a (mostly) obsolete instrument that was in vogue among the concert band low brass crowd back in the John Philip Sousa era. The idea was to equip the instrument with a trombone-size bell flare for notes up there in the trombone range, plus a 2nd larger bell flare for notes in the lower range. Alongside the instrument's regular 1-2-3 valves, there is 1 more valve whose sole purpose is to direct the airflow to whichever bell flare the player wants to use, the larger or the smaller. (Some euphoniums have 1-2-3-4 valves, so the double-bell versions of those have a 5th valve for switching between bell flares.)

An authority on the subject (the guy who did the restoration on the double bell euphonium pictured a few frames back) pointed out that nothing about the instrument requires the person playing it to use the trombone-size bell flare for higher notes & the euphonium-size bell for the lower notes.

Smaller for higher notes & larger for lower notes might seem like a natural way to go, but it's not mandatory. That is, nothing about the way the instrument's tubing & valves are arranged requires doing it that way. Low notes can sound via the smaller bell flare & high notes can come out of the larger one. It's all up the player's musical preferences. The instrument's design & construction work either way.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

The Chief Of Staff Was Right Again. (As Usual.)

I'm backlogged with three -- 3 -- outstanding French Horn Rescue Conn 6D clones

No more Conn 6D clone backlog. Once the new school term started, sure enough, band parents & band kids started looking for outstanding double horns -- & some of'm found mine. It's exactly as The Chief Of Staff foresaw.

The current backlog is "rescue" horns needing fixa-fixa-fixa. Right now, nothing is ready to go.

One horn is in the shop right now -- a Yamaha YHR-667 that's been there nearly a month (because it was so badly damaged when it went in).

Three others are waiting their turns on the workbench -- an outstanding Yamaha YHR-567 in semi-rough condition, a version of Amati 345-H with lots of dented tubing, & a previously repaired Selmer USA double horn that needs just 1 minor fix (missing rubber or cork bumper for 3rd valve rotary valve stop-arm).

I take project horns over to the instrument repair technician singly, mainly so he won't have to store them while they're waiting for work but also so he can concentrate on just 1 horn at a time. I always ask him to take his time & fit in my "rescue" horns as non-priority projects because I'm not in a hurry while some if not most of his clients need their personal instruments fixed ASAP. A trombonist who's in 3 ensembles that I'm in needed emergency trombone repair recently. Our brass instrument technician fixed the trombone right away -- 15 minutes & the trombone was good to go.

The "rescue" Amati came in a high-quality aftermarket carrying case that's worth almost as much as the total eBay cost for the item + shipping. Any gain from that, however, is apt to be offset by the repair bill, which I'm guessing will be on the high side because of all the hard-to-reach places that have dents. (Sometimes I bite the bear & sometimes the bear bites me.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Oops! I Did It Again.

I must have a thing for non-Conn copies of Conn 6D.

A specially nice looking 1 of those, a silver plated version by Getzen, showed up on eBay.

The Devil made me set up a last-minute e-snipe for it.

With 4 seconds to go, I won !

( That's because there were no other bidders. I would not have won if there had been, because my snipe amount was not much above the opening bid amount. )

Basically, I am swapping 1 of my recently flipped other 6D look-alikes for a another horn like it, except silver plated & in lots better condition.

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Getzen Clone Of Conn 6D Was Delivered Today.

It's the nicest clone/copy of Conn 6D I've seen -- & I've seen lots of'm (& owned quite a few).

The horn has a few minor dings & pings that will need to be smoothed out professionally -- but those can wait till repairs are completed on the French Horn Rescue instruments already in the queue. (The Getzen Signature 6D clone is not a "rescue" horn. It clearly never suffered that degree of extensive abuse & misuse & neglect.)

Plans are to play the Getzen 6D copy at brass quintet rehearsal today & possibly also at concert band rehearsal tomorrow.

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Fixed - Flipped - Gone.

The Yamaha YHR-667 from Orlando FL Craig's List that my son bought for me while he was timeshare vacationing in the area is now in the hands of my regular horn repair professional back home.

The YHR-667 is a candidate for French Horn Rescue. That is, it was a really nice horn before it got semi-trashed by a previous owner via carelessness & neglect. (I'd hate to think any of the damage was done intentionally.)

Looking forward to playing it once it comes back from the instrument repair workshop. I've never had a pro-quality Geyer-Knopf horn before.

I picked up the fully repaired Yamaha YHR-667 last week (& dropped off another horn for repairs at the same time).

The fixed YHR-667 looked & played great. I enjoyed it -- but not enough to keep it. So I photographed it & put it on Craig's List & eBay.

As it happens, somebody on FaceBook yesterday asked if any of his FaceBook Friends happened to have a Yamaha YHR-667 fixer upper. I responded saying mine was just back from the shop & on Craig's List, & I included a link to my Craig's List ad. In a flash, the guy said he'd take it. Not only that, he said he'd be in my area today. We arranged to meet. He liked the horn so well that he took it with him. It was less than a week between completion of repairs & flipping.

My only ready-to-flip horn at the moment is a solid, good quality (but humble looking) Selmer USA double horn that's on eBay & Craig's List. I have 1 more horn in the shop (Yamaha YHR-567) plus 2 more lined up for repair after that (Getzen "Signature" clone of Conn 6D & Amati Denak AHR-345).

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​