Hyatt Vacation Club coming into Abound?

[dioxide45]

but there is no more separate Vistana identity or sales operation and there will be no new Vistana or VSN properties.

We don't really know this. It has been confirmed there will be two new Westin Vacation Club properites in Charleston and Savannah. We don't know if they will be VSN. On the surface Marriott Vacations Worldwide has changed their branding and marketing for Vistana into Sheraton and Westin Vacation Club under the new "The Marriott Vacation Clubs" brand. However, they are still two separate legal entities under the same corporate umbrella.

 

[BJRSanDiego]

Yes I was also referring to timeshares.

The assumption that availability via an Abound mechanism would yield better results is risky, there are many MVC resorts where the availability and value via II is better than Abound.

Yes you can use Club points in II for Hyatt properties now, see example below, you can run the numbers for your ownership to see if it would be worth it for you. With Abound club points in II it is the number of points needed that varies with unit size and TDI. with weeks it is a more complex set of parameters. I can see these weeks using a low season MVC 2-bed that elects for less than 1900club points, hence the terrible value using club points in II. If that translates to any Hyatt inventory in Abound then its going to be expensive for people to use that option. Some will, they always do.




View attachment 91401

Thanks for posting. I hadn't seen much availability for Pinon Point in a while. Strangely, my ongoing request didn't result in a match last night when this popped up...

 

[kozykritter]

Can Marriott Vacations Worldwide get Hyatt on board to allow cross bookings and potentially Marriott Vacation Club trying to sell Hyatt owners Abound Club points that can be converted to Marriott Bonvoy points? Also, I don't think Hyatt wants MVW to be pushing people from Hyatt brands into Marriott brands. It just doesn't make sense.

Wouldn't the converse be true as well, with Vistana and MVC owners staying at Hyatt properties via Abound potentially being sold Hyatt ownership that can be converted to WoH points? Isn't this already happening both ways when those exchanges are made through II? In the end, Abound is meant to be an exchange company as described in its operating document which is worded to contemplate more timeshare companies being affiliated for exchange beyond Vistana.

After the whole Abound launch many-months-long speculation about the inclusion/exclusion of mandatory properties (you and I were convinced all the signs pointed to no) and what actually happened, I've given up guessing on what MVW might do in regards to ownerships and Abound. That said, two years ago a person I know inside MVC told me that despite the licensing issues and other factors that wouldn't allow Hyatt to be part of Abound at launch, MVW had assembled an internal taskforce whose sole goal was to find a way to work/negotiate with Hyatt to find a path to affiliation with Abound in some form. They said the primary target was the existing points program (HPC or HPP or whatever they call it now) as the weeks side was too complicated and ingrained with Hyatt brands. This was before Welk came along with its a-bit-crappier Platinum Points program integration into Hyatt Vacation Club, which might have provided a more distantly associated option for affiliation than the existing points program. I'm not going to hazard a guess if any of that came about or has any bearing on the speculation because I've given up as previously stated!

 

[Hindsite]

I'm not going to hazard a guess if any of that came about or has any bearing on the speculation because I've given up as previously stated!

Would you hazard a guess on the new "integrated" website that seems to have allegedly been in beta testing for many months?

 

[kozykritter]

Would you hazard a guess on the new "integrated" website that seems to have allegedly been in beta testing for many months?

Haha. Sadly I already did in previous posts here. Target was early Q1 this year but inside scuttle said end of Q2 (June 30th). I think our Abound launch experience has taught us that we'd rather wait than get something rushed out that makes us want to fling ourselves off a cliff in frustration...again!

 

[daviator]

We don't really know this. It has been confirmed there will be two new Westin Vacation Club properites in Charleston and Savannah. We don't know if they will be VSN. On the surface Marriott Vacations Worldwide has changed their branding and marketing for Vistana into Sheraton and Westin Vacation Club under the new "The Marriott Vacation Clubs" brand. However, they are still two separate legal entities under the same corporate umbrella.

It’s true that we don’t know, but I’ll bet anyone $100 that we will not see any new properties added to VSN. Try as I might, I can’t think of any reasons why it would benefit MVC to do so.

Has anyone looked in to see if either of those properties is even being condo-mapped or mapped as interval ownership/timeshate? My guess is that they will not be (maybe just deeded as single properties, like a hotel) and that they will only be available through Abound’s exchange program, similar to some of the (former) Pulse properties. Now that MVC no longer wants to sell deeded weeks anywhere, it probably makes no sense to even create deeded weeks. The part of this I’m murky on is how they expand the pool of Abound points or allocate MFs on properties which are not actually timeshares from a legal (deed) standpoint. But I’m sure there is an answer to this as they are obviously doing it somehow at several of the urban properties.

 

[dioxide45]

Wouldn't the converse be true as well, with Vistana and MVC owners staying at Hyatt properties via Abound potentially being sold Hyatt ownership that can be converted to WoH points? Isn't this already happening both ways when those exchanges are made through II? In the end, Abound is meant to be an exchange company as described in its operating document which is worded to contemplate more timeshare companies being affiliated for exchange beyond Vistana.

After the whole Abound launch many-months-long speculation about the inclusion/exclusion of mandatory properties (you and I were convinced all the signs pointed to no) and what actually happened, I've given up guessing on what MVW might do in regards to ownerships and Abound. That said, two years ago a person I know inside MVC told me that despite the licensing issues and other factors that wouldn't allow Hyatt to be part of Abound at launch, MVW had assembled an internal taskforce whose sole goal was to find a way to work/negotiate with Hyatt to find a path to affiliation with Abound in some form. They said the primary target was the existing points program (HPC or HPP or whatever they call it now) as the weeks side was too complicated and ingrained with Hyatt brands. This was before Welk came along with its a-bit-crappier Platinum Points program integration into Hyatt Vacation Club, which might have provided a more distantly associated option for affiliation than the existing points program. I'm not going to hazard a guess if any of that came about or has any bearing on the speculation because I've given up as previously stated!

I think the difference here is that going through II is a non affiliated intermediary. Hyatt agrees to have their timeshare properties affiliated with II, but they may not agree to affiliate with a direct points booking program between Hyatt properties and Marriott. There is an additional cost of entry for II exchanges.

Not only is getting Hyatt Hotel company on board a requirement, they would need to get Marriott International to agree to such a relationship. While we have all been right and wrong over many years of speculation, many are also going by specific statements provided in the past regarding any integration with Hyatt that said it was a non starter. Sure, things could have changed. Hyatt has its own internal integration issues at hand just trying to integrate Welk into their system. Any planned integration needs approval from all parties. Even right now they can't sell Portfolio Points from any inventory at Hyatt Ka'anapali because that property is part of an agreement with a third party developer.

I think the main issue with the Hyatt licensing agreement is its term. I believe it has some obscene length based on the agreement that was made between Hyatt and ILG when Hyatt spunoff the timeshare company. So any change would require MVW to go back to the negotiating table. Any change would likely require MVW to provide more concessions, which usually means pay them more money.

We've long heard from the sales people of this impending integration with Hyatt mostly dating back to the announcement of the acquisition of ILG. The truth is that sales usually knows only as much as or less than owners do when it comes to these things up until shortly before integration. Ask them to put any of these statements in the contract as a condition to cancel if they don't come true and they will quickly walk them back.

I've stopped posting about specifics like this that I hear from a timeshare owner update because I can count the number of things that came true on a single hand. I don't have enough fingers, toes, and other appendages to count the stuff that didn't happen. I also tend to go by official statements from top executives over lower level sales reps. Everyone seems to always have their trusted salesperson that doesn't lie to them and we should all believe their statement because they heard it from a salesperson who had no reason to lie and weren't trying to make a sale.

 

[dioxide45]

I'd like to see them do something like the Wyndham Club Pass as it applies to Worldmark owners, if they can't fully integrate these.

I think the main difference here is that other than Wyndham there is no other third party licencing agreement between these companies. Worldmark and Shell are not directly affiliated with other hotel brands. Certainly anything is possible, but is it probable?

 

[daviator]

I think the difference here is that going through II is a non affiliated intermediary. Hyatt agrees to have their timeshare properties affiliated with II, but they may not agree to affiliate with a direct points booking program between Hyatt properties and Marriott. There is an additional cost of entry for II exchanges.

Not only is getting Hyatt Hotel company on board a requirement, they would need to get Marriott International to agree to such a relationship. While we have all been right and wrong over many years of speculation, many are also going by specific statements provided in the past regarding any integration with Hyatt that said it was a non starter. Sure, things could have changed. Hyatt has its own internal integration issues at hand just trying to integrate Welk into their system. Any planned integration needs approval from all parties. Even right now they can't sell Portfolio Points from any inventory at Hyatt Ka'anapali because that property is part of an agreement with a third party developer.

I think the main issue with the Hyatt licensing agreement is its term. I believe it has some obscene length based on the agreement that was made between Hyatt and ILG when Hyatt spunoff the timeshare company. So any change would require MVW to go back to the negotiating table. Any change would likely require MVW to provide more concessions, which usually means pay them more money.

We've long heard from the sales people of this impending integration with Hyatt mostly dating back to the announcement of the acquisition of ILG. The truth is that sales usually knows only as much as or less than owners do when it comes to these things up until shortly before integration. Ask them to put any of these statements in the contract as a condition to cancel if they don't come true and they will quickly walk them back.

I've stopped posting about specifics like this that I hear from a timeshare owner update because I can count the number of things that came true on a single hand. I don't have enough fingers, toes, and other appendages to count the stuff that didn't happen. I also tend to go by official statements from top executives over lower level sales reps. Everyone seems to always have their trusted salesperson that doesn't lie to them and we should all believe their statement because they heard it from a salesperson who had no reason to lie and weren't trying to make a sale.

Thanks, there is a lot of good info in your comments. I hope I did not suggest that I believed what the sales guy was telling me, it was clear that he was not willing to put it in writing, but he was emphatic enough about it (and was being basically honest on the other stuff sales tends to lie about) that it seemed worth throwing out for discussion. I’d call it, as a rumor, possible, but not necessarily credible.

Of course, if it doesn’t happen this year, I’ll have something to throw back at this guy if he does my update next year.

 

[RunCat]

Has anyone looked in to see if either of those properties is even being condo-mapped or mapped as interval ownership/timeshate? My guess is that they will not be (maybe just deeded as single properties, like a hotel) and that they will only be available through Abound’s exchange program, similar to some of the (former) Pulse properties. Now that MVC no longer wants to sell deeded weeks anywhere, it probably makes no sense to even create deeded weeks. The part of this I’m murky on is how they expand the pool of Abound points or allocate MFs on properties which are not actually timeshares from a legal (deed) standpoint. But I’m sure there is an answer to this as they are obviously doing it somehow at several of the urban properties.

HVC (nee Welk) has sold only points, no deeds, for 15+ years. New inventory was added to the Trust with points being allocated for each interval-based on the published formula. The more property/points that are added to the trust, the more points that can be sold. Kinda simple actually.

 

[daviator]

HVC (nee Welk) has sold only points, no deeds, for 15+ years. New inventory was added to the Trust with points being allocated for each interval-based on the published formula. The more property/points that are added to the trust, the more points that can be sold. Kinda simple actually.

That’s true if they are added to the trust as deeded weeks, the traditional form of ownership for timeshares. But MVC now has properties which do not exist as deeded weeks and thus cannot be added to the trust, and in fact are not part of the trust so far as I know. MVC dumps inventory into the exchange program so that people can book these properties but it isn’t clear what the mechanism is for paying their costs, or at least it isn’t clear to me.

 

[RunCat]

I think the difference here is that going through II is a non affiliated intermediary. Hyatt agrees to have their timeshare properties affiliated with II, but they may not agree to affiliate with a direct points booking program between Hyatt properties and Marriott. There is an additional cost of entry for II exchanges.

Not only is getting Hyatt Hotel company on board a requirement, they would need to get Marriott International to agree to such a relationship. While we have all been right and wrong over many years of speculation, many are also going by specific statements provided in the past regarding any integration with Hyatt that said it was a non starter. Sure, things could have changed. Hyatt has its own internal integration issues at hand just trying to integrate Welk into their system. Any planned integration needs approval from all parties. Even right now they can't sell Portfolio Points from any inventory at Hyatt Ka'anapali because that property is part of an agreement with a third party developer.

I think the main issue with the Hyatt licensing agreement is its term. I believe it has some obscene length based on the agreement that was made between Hyatt and ILG when Hyatt spunoff the timeshare company. So any change would require MVW to go back to the negotiating table. Any change would likely require MVW to provide more concessions, which usually means pay them more money.

We've long heard from the sales people of this impending integration with Hyatt mostly dating back to the announcement of the acquisition of ILG. The truth is that sales usually knows only as much as or less than owners do when it comes to these things up until shortly before integration. Ask them to put any of these statements in the contract as a condition to cancel if they don't come true and they will quickly walk them back.

I've stopped posting about specifics like this that I hear from a timeshare owner update because I can count the number of things that came true on a single hand. I don't have enough fingers, toes, and other appendages to count the stuff that didn't happen. I also tend to go by official statements from top executives over lower level sales reps. Everyone seems to always have their trusted salesperson that doesn't lie to them and we should all believe their statement because they heard it from a salesperson who had no reason to lie and weren't trying to make a sale.

Agree. I personally do not see any reason for integration of the two programs. Honestly, if that was the plan, they should have started the process into MVC when Welk was purchased 3 years ago. Instead they were rebranded as a part of HVC. Also any merging between the HRC and Welk programs are a slog right now. Only viable mechanism is via II with a claim of some priority for Hyatt owners .

 

[RunCat]

That’s true if they are added to the trust as deeded weeks, the traditional form of ownership for timeshares. But MVC now has properties which do not exist as deeded weeks and thus cannot be added to the trust, and in fact are not part of the trust so far as I know. MVC dumps inventory into the exchange program so that people can book these properties but it isn’t clear what the mechanism is for paying their costs, or at least it isn’t clear to me.

The "weeks" added to the Welk Trust were never deeded weeks that could be purchased in the traditional sense. Rather, the points were basically a proportional share in the real estate trust. Thus it was "backed" by real estate and not just a vacation club. Now, how MVW handles unsold inventory et al has always been a question in my mind.

 

[daviator]

The "weeks" added to the Welk Trust were never deeded weeks that could be purchased in the traditional sense. Rather, the points were basically a proportional share in the real estate trust. Thus it was "backed" by real estate and not just a vacation club. Now, how MVW handles unsold inventory et al has always been a question in my mind.

Yes I suppose they could dump an entire property into the trust but I don’t think MVC has done that with properties like New York City.

Of course when there are no deeded weeks there isn’t even the illusion of any “owner” control via a board of directors etc. Such properties are 100% controlled by MVC even though we may ostensibly own all or part of them.

 

[ScoopKona]

Would you hazard a guess on the new "integrated" website that seems to have allegedly been in beta testing for many months?

Absolutely not. The new Interval points system still doesn't work 100%. And there's no real "giddyup" on Marriott's part to fix it.

 

[daviator]

Would you hazard a guess on the new "integrated" website that seems to have allegedly been in beta testing for many months?

I wouldn’t hazard a guess on anything involving IT that involves MVW, or the Marriott hotel company for that matter.

My understanding is that Marriott’s underlying reservations system is written in COBOL, a computer language that was dying 40 years ago, and runs on ancient mainframes. If true, that probably explains a lot.

 

[dioxide45]

Agree. I personally do not see any reason for integration of the two programs. Honestly, if that was the plan, they should have started the process into MVC when Welk was purchased 3 years ago. Instead they were rebranded as a part of HVC. Also any merging between the HRC and Welk programs are a slog right now. Only viable mechanism is via II with a claim of some priority for Hyatt owners .

I think they also want to always keep open a possible spinoff or sale of the Hyatt Vacation Club brand. As soon as they add it in to the Abound system, that becomes more of a challenge.

 

[dioxide45]

It’s true that we don’t know, but I’ll bet anyone $100 that we will not see any new properties added to VSN. Try as I might, I can’t think of any reasons why it would benefit MVC to do so.

The big question then is, why even brand them as a Westin Vacation Club properties? Why not just slap the Marriott Vacation Club name on them, put them only into Abound and call it a day? Adding them to Westin Vacation Club but not in VSN will cause more confusion and angst with owners. Though we know that timeshare brands like confusion but the fact that they enrolled all VSN owners into Abound effectively for free would seem to make me think these could possibly also be in VSN..

 

[daviator]

I think they also want to always keep open a possible spinoff or sale of the Hyatt Vacation Club brand. As soon as they add it in to the Abound system, that becomes more of a challenge.

Interesting point. I have wondered whether they might also want to sell II once they have reconfigured it to be most beneficial to them.

 

[daviator]

The big question then is, why even brand them as a Westin Vacation Club properties? Why not just slap the Marriott Vacation Club name on them, put them only into Abound and call it a day? Adding them to Westin Vacation Club but not in VSN will cause more confusion and angst with owners. Though we know that timeshare brands like confusion but the fact that they enrolled all VSN owners into Abound effectively for free would seem to make me think these could possibly also be in VSN..

I have wondered that too. But Westin and Sheraton are valuable brands with their own customers. It wouldn't make sense for them to abandon those brands for any new properties just because they don't want to keep adding to VSN.

Time will tell!

 

[YYJMSP]

I have wondered that too. But Westin and Sheraton are valuable brands with their own customers. It wouldn't make sense for them to abandon those brands for any new properties just because they don't want to keep adding to VSN.

Time will tell!

Confusion is the goal.

Buyers will think they have VSN membership, sonce the salesperson will show all these other Westin properties maybe accessible through Interval (leaving out the details of course), and won't realize until it's too late to rescind.

 

[daviator]

Confusion is the goal.

Buyers will think they have VSN membership, sonce the salesperson will show all these other Westin properties maybe accessible through Interval (leaving out the details of course), and won't realize until it's too late to rescind.

You might be right. I have long believed that confusion is, perhaps not the goal, but certainly a welcome side-effect that gets continually introduced into MVC programs. The more confusing things are, the more likely that inventory will go unbooked, allowing MVC to monetize the unbooked inventory in a variety of ways. Then they can tell the confused owner that it's their own fault they aren't getting value out of their ownership, they just need to learn the system and how to use it. And they're not wrong, but they know that the majority of owners will never really figure it out – especially since, by the time they do, it all will have changed.

TUG is one antidote to the confusion, for the most part, people here have it figured out.

 

[YYJMSP]

You might be right. I have long believed that confusion is, perhaps not the goal, but certainly a welcome side-effect that gets continually introduced into MVC programs. The more confusing things are, the more likely that inventory will go unbooked, allowing MVC to monetize the unbooked inventory in a variety of ways. Then they can tell the confused owner that it's their own fault they aren't getting value out of their ownership, they just need to learn the system and how to use it. And they're not wrong, but they know that the majority of owners will never really figure it out – especially since, by the time they do, it all will have changed.

TUG is one antidote to the confusion, for the most part, people here have it figured out.

"You need to buy more to use it correctly" is what you will hear at your next owners update...

 

[RunCat]

I think they also want to always keep open a possible spinoff or sale of the Hyatt Vacation Club brand. As soon as they add it in to the Abound system, that becomes more of a challenge.

I thought a spinoff was a logical option to avoid the name competition (Marriott vs Hyatt). But I suspect it is less of an issue since MVC does not own the Marriott name either. Might make more sense to keep them as as subsidiary and make $$ off of the management fees.

 

[dioxide45]

I thought a spinoff was a logical option to avoid the name competition (Marriott vs Hyatt). But I suspect it is less of an issue since MVC does not own the Marriott name either. Might make more sense to keep them as as subsidiary and make $$ off of the management fees.

I guess it all depends on their long term play and wanting to return value to the shareholders. If they think they could make a quick buck, they might just sell it. Hard to tell. A lot of profitable businesses get sold out from under bigger corporate umbrellas. Hyatt also has a number of challenges with resorts and have had some defect in the recent past with another lawsuit involved with the Bonita Springs property. I think there may be challenges long term with selling inventory within that system and contract sales is what drives growth. Though perhaps the new, possible, Orlando Hyatt Vacation Club property might change things.