How much would you pay for Max?

[geist1223]

As A DRI Platinum Member we can Book a month early. So for my Home Collection at 14 months and in all other Collections at 11 months. By Contract we have Club Select and Club Combination. While there was an adjustment to the list of other timeshares that could be traded for DRI Points my other timeshares are still on the List. We are Platninum because of Club Select Club Combination. We lose all of this plus all the secondary benefits that go with being Platinum.

 

[dioxide45]

So I looked at the annual report. These numbers are a little fuzzy. HGVC has 529,000 owners with a net 2% growth rate. That's ~10,500 new owners per year. They perform 600,000 presentations. So new sales from presentations are 1.7%. It doesn't break down the difference between an new owner and an existing owner.

I was a little low, I guess I am biased toward TUG educated owners

https://s201.q4cdn.com/229588028/files/doc_news/2024/02/HGV-Q4-2023-Earnings-Release-2-28-2024_FINAL.pdf

They probably sell more contracts to existing owners than they do new. Probably close to 70-80% are sales to existing owners.

 

[dayooper]

They probably sell more contracts to existing owners than they do new. Probably close to 70-80% are sales to existing owners.

From the last earnings call, 26% was to new members so 74% was to existing. They always say their goal is 40% if sales goes to new members. Before Covid, they were closer to that mark, IIRC.

 

[Mongoose]

so "10,500 new owners" is actually "10,500 new deeds"?

10,500 new sales. I'm not sure all Diamond purchases have deeds.

 

[Mongoose]

I'm uncertain as to whether you are saying "Diamond members have no benefits so they have nothing to lose" or "HGVC members don't lose their benefits".

The latter statement isn't true. HGVC members lose their Elite status if they join MAX - which can matter a great deal to higher level Elites.

"I hear Diamond members say they lose benefits if they join MAX. What are those actual benefits? " See post 76.

I can understand not wanting to lose elite status. I wonder why they do that, you would think they would get the best offers.

 

[cd5]

so "10,500 new owners" is actually "10,500 new deeds"?

No because the quantity of deeds is a fixed number (just like points for trust resorts) unless they're building something new. New "purchases" rather than new owners/deeds. So 1.7% means about 2 out of 10 buy points/deeds & get into Max. Some of those purchases just get Max by default because it now comes with developer points and the person may be a new owner/member.

 

[dioxide45]

From the last earnings call, 26% was to new members so 74% was to existing. They always say their goal is 40% if sales goes to new members. Before Covid, they were closer to that mark, IIRC.

Looks like I was pretty spot on in my estimate without even looking at it or knowing what it was. MVC had the same ratios when they rolled out their Destinations Points program (now Abound) back in 2010. A current customer is the best customer. Offer something new and shiney any people will buy it.

 

[dayooper]

Looks like I was pretty spot on in my estimate without even looking at it or knowing what it was. MVC had the same ratios when they rolled out their Destinations Points program (now Abound) back in 2010. A current customer is the best customer. Offer something new and shiney any people will buy it.

Yup, I chuckled when I saw your post. I knew you were spot on. I think they say the goal is 40% new, but know they will have a hard time reaching that. Makes the investors happy when they see that number as the goal.

 

[Mongoose]

Yup, I chuckled when I saw your post. I knew you were spot on. I think they say the goal is 40% new, but know they will have a hard time reaching that. Makes the investors happy when they see that number as the goal.

Hard to believe 60% of owners think it’s a great idea to buy more retail. Must be the ego play and manipulation for elite status.

 

[dioxide45]

Hard to believe 60% of owners thinks it’s a great idea to buy more retail. Must be the ego play and manipulation for elite status.

It's actually 74%! I am sure that some don't know what they are buying. Some HGVC buyers are buying DRI Collection points because of the 13 month booking window. 13 months sounds great, but you can't book HGVC properties with them at that point.

 

[dayooper]

It's actually 74%! I am sure that some don't know what they are buying. Some HGVC buyers are buying DRI Collection points because of the 13 month booking window. 13 months sounds great, but you can't book HGVC properties with them at that point.

This is what makes me sad. The sales weasels are claiming the HVC/DRI points are Max Points and don’t tell the perspective victims . . . Errrrr . . . buyers that they can’t use those points in HGVC until 6 months out. Usually, the buyers figure this out after the recession period has expired and are left holding an expensive bag they can’t get rid of until they pay off the loan.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

"HGVC has 529,000 owners with a net 2% growth rate. That's ~10,500 new owners per year. "

wouldn't it be more than 10.5K, maybe 2 or 3 or 4x that #? They lose owners every yr, commonly called "churn" in similar industries. I assume by "net", that incl the churn losses? idk if they disclose a churn rate, but I would think churn is > 2%. could be much higher. Real growth rate would be approx that 2% + the churn rate?
lots of "?" & no sharpening of pencil here b/c I have never looked at their financials, 10Q, 10K, etc.

"Hard to believe 60% of owners think it’s a great idea to buy more retail."

but that isn't what they said, is it? was that # derived elsewhere? is that 60% a Max-specific #?
Here I see 74% of new sales go to existing owners, which is different, has different denominators & numerators. If the 10.5K is actually 40K (made that up from above paragraph), then 74% of that is 30K. 30K is 6% of 529K, so first est is only 6% of existing owners were able to and went to the trouble to buy more in that year. I think it is easy to triple that #, since maybe the same # bought more last yr, so can't really be expected to buy 2 yrs in a row. Then add the % of owners who think it’s a great idea to buy more retail, but don't have the finances at the moment.
still many "?" and assumptions, but I think what I am reading leads to maybe 20% of owners think it’s a great idea to buy more retail.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

sales weasels are claiming ... buyers figure this out after the recession period

Boy, I can only guess at the # of half-truths, slips of the tongue, etc that echo around the room in those meetings. Honestly, I think it pales in comparison to the fact that when people are quoted the Developer Price + the Annual MFs, they don't say
"Wait? WHAT?!?! You want THAT much upfront & I still have to pay MFs? Those MFs sound reasonable, maybe quite attractive if I paid NOTHING upfront. How do I ever justify the upfront + those MFs. You're taking my assets AND charging me MFs. Whooaaaaa."
The only time I was given the #s by an HGVC employee that is exactly what went thru my head. I pulled out a napkin, did the calculations that showed how crazy it was. She yelled "IT ISN'T AN INVESTMENT" and ran out of the room, never to be see again.

I guess, bottom line to me, if people go into a sales pitch like that w/o being properly prepared quantitatively, all the other stuff is small potatoes. They've already lost.

and honestly, having looked thru the RCI site a few times, I think they play with as many half-truths & bad disclosures as the rest of the industry does.
They also seem to have IT people from the early '90s, just as the rest of the industry does, another thing I will never figure out

 

[brp]

Hard to believe 60% of owners think it’s a great idea to buy more retail. Must be the ego play and manipulation for elite status.

I think it's more likely that they don't know about or, if they do, don't understand/trust the resale path to go that way. Certainly buying from the developer is safer and more fool-proof than resale. At a cost.

Probably some amount of elite status play, but I'd think ego is less of a factor in most cases.

Cheers.

 

[cd5]

It's just ignorance of the alternatives, sheer laziness or naïveté (I'll explain why I think that lower). Many don't do research or look up info on the web or in social media or are unaware that there are groups of current timeshare owners/members who could have guide them and give an honest answer to questions they may have (ignorance). Many do no research of any kind and believe all they are told by sales.
There are many sources of great info online including TUG and certain FB groups that dont just post about timeshare "fluff", for lack of a better term.
As an example, our Embarc FB group is not just about talking about / reporting vacation experiences - it's about the details of how it all works, following the board meeting info, educating members about what they own, how to use it effectively and helping members get resolutions to their problems (lots of those since the takeover by Hilton!) . Fully half or more of the posts are on those topics rather than just how nice the pools/weather/rooms/view are...
That said, our Embarc FB group has been in existance since 2015, has 7000 members and almost every week someone posts that they've attended an "update" and bought into wonderful Max (previous to April 2023, Extraordinary Escapes) even though every time someone posts about it, 98% of members' replies tell them to rescind (or just not buy if they haven't yet) with the reasons it's not a good "investment" spelled out. They choose to believe the salespeople over other members (naïveté), sometimes just don't understand how to use what they already own effectively (even after years of ownership and the member guidelines being available to read at any time, or being able to simply ask in our group) and think the new purchase will make things "easier", "better" than their current situation - it almost never does (laziness). A high percentage report regrets later on because it doesn't do for them, what they thought it would! Tough lesson to learn after spending tens of thousands of dollars.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Yet another way to trade into DRI and certain Embarc Properties without MAX. Can some HGV/DRI members shed light on this? I am now receiving discounted cash stays (or so they advertise) from Top Hotel Reservations for certain HVC/DRI resorts (x Hawaii, x Mexico but includes some Embarc). Property list below. Might be useful for international stay including Embarc Vancouver?

(The title of the email says it is from "hgv@travel.hiltongrandvacations.com" so I thought these are discounted HGVC point or cash stays. Confusing. Not sure how I got on this list but stayed at an HVC/DRI property via exchange last year and the Terms say "Diamond resorts" )

See below for email and terms. Terms says non-cancellable and $10 - $30 resort fee per night. It doesn't include the DRI properties that matter most to me but may be useful for someone who doesn't want MAX. There are some Embarc properties which may be useful.

Perhaps HGV/DRI owners can shed light on this? Is this last minute inventory? Are these non-rebranded HGV resorts so not renovated completely?

 

[cd5]

Yet another way to trade into DRI and certain Embarc Properties without MAX. Can some HGV/DRI members shed light on this? I am now receiving discounted cash stays (or so they advertise) from Top Hotel Reservations for certain HVC/DRI resorts (x Hawaii, x Mexico but includes some Embarc). Property list below. Might be useful for international stay including Embarc Vancouver?

(The title of the email says it is from "hgv@travel.hiltongrandvacations.com" so I thought these are discounted HGVC point or cash stays. Confusing. Not sure how I got on this list but stayed at an HVC/DRI property via exchange last year and the Terms say "Diamond resorts" )

See below for email and terms. Terms says non-cancellable and $10 - $30 resort fee per night. It doesn't include the DRI properties that matter most to me but may be useful for someone who doesn't want MAX. There are some Embarc properties which may be useful.

Perhaps HGV/DRI owners can shed light on this? Is this last minute inventory? Are these non-rebranded HGV resorts so not renovated completely?

Those would be Hilton developer points being marketed by Hilton themselves rather than (or perhaps in addition to) using 3rd party websites.Most would not be renovated even if rebranded. Embarc has 3 resorts being reno'd in 2024-2025 out of the 9 (Embarc has large capital reserves) and others will follow over the following 5 years. Vancouver had a reno aboit 2-3 years ago so looks pretty great. Diamond isn't as fortunate so it may take many more years for the majority to be renovated although I know Hilton has that objective. Some are in pretty rough shape, others pretty good.

 

[dandjane1]

that's generally a pretty bad use of HGVC POINTS; why not sell your deed?

We only bought the deed starting Jan. 2023, and I don't suppose it's worth much - it's a 1 BR+ in a gold week in Waikoloa's Kingsland.
What could I expect from a private sale? Any ball-park idea?
Thanks.

 

[Mongoose]

We only bought the deed starting Jan. 2023, and I don't suppose it's worth much - it's a 1 BR+ in a gold week in Waikoloa's Kingsland.
What could I expect from a private sale? Any ball-park idea?
Thanks.

Not much. How many points? Gold will have a ow high MF to point ratio. $1-$700.

 

[Lithoboy]

Say you owned a mix of HGVC and/or bHC resale deeds.

HGVC offers to upgrade you for no additional deeds required - just cash.

How much would you pay?

I've had a peek at Max availability so that informs my response, if you don't know what availability looks like your response could be different.

so I too have had a peek at Max availability, and have spent many hours educating myself as to whether or not it would ever be worth it for our family were I to lose my sneak peek
So far, we have not naturally selected any DRI resorts when looking for vacations. I do see a few that we would, perhaps, try, but nothing make or break for us. Having said that, we are looking at the properties in France, and if I can get those without going to RCI, that would be ideal, but not enough to pay for Max...

We do not have enough legacy status to have legacy benefits. so for us the only Max perk that we are getting to preview that is worth anything to us is the no booking fees. We book about 3-5 trips a year, (but some are with RCI regardless, based on locations) and have occasionally grabbed something "just incase" we can make it work and later released it. I would not do this if I had to pay the booking fee.
However, the math does NOT add up just to save booking fees.

So... I guess my answer would be less than $100/yr... or some figure that works out to that... basically the higher membership fee, but nothing up front!

 

[Mongoose]

So what is the best HGV Max deal existing HGVC owners have seen? Just curious. I saw someone of FB mention $8K to modify their ownership to gain access.

 

[trippka]

so I too have had a peek at Max availability, and have spent many hours educating myself as to whether or not it would ever be worth it for our family were I to lose my sneak peek
So far, we have not naturally selected any DRI resorts when looking for vacations. I do see a few that we would, perhaps, try, but nothing make or break for us. Having said that, we are looking at the properties in France, and if I can get those without going to RCI, that would be ideal, but not enough to pay for Max...

We do not have enough legacy status to have legacy benefits. so for us the only Max perk that we are getting to preview that is worth anything to us is the no booking fees. We book about 3-5 trips a year, (but some are with RCI regardless, based on locations) and have occasionally grabbed something "just incase" we can make it work and later released it. I would not do this if I had to pay the booking fee.
However, the math does NOT add up just to save booking fees.

So... I guess my answer would be less than $100/yr... or some figure that works out to that... basically the higher membership fee, but nothing up front!

It is true there is no booking fee. However, if you want to insure your points, you have to pay for each reservation. For me, I have trouble getting long stays, and I have to book a few days here and there at my home resort and find a way to hook them all together. I also like a good view, so I sometimes cancel for a better view. DRI had one fee to insure everything for the full year. I hadn't appreciated the difference in fees when I bought Max. If there were a booking fee in addition, that would be crazy. I am Centum, so there are a lot of reservations in a year. There is also a Max limit of how many weeks in a row you can book with one booking. That didn't exist on the DRI side. They force you into multiple reservations for no reason I can see other than more fees.

 

[ljmiii]

So what is the best HGV Max deal existing HGVC owners have seen? Just curious. I saw someone of FB mention $8K to modify their ownership to gain access.

In another forum I have read of someone offered Max if they did a $7K upgrade of their directly purchased existing HGVC deed. I confess I don't remember at which location this deal was offered nor the location of the existing deed.

But it does seem that the price of Max offers vary by location and that the lowest prices for which HGV is willing to offer Max is for upgrading directly purchased deeds.