HGVC + Worldmark owners - Questions Please

[Yamabachi]

Hi y'all. Current HGVC owner looking at expanding my TS portfolio to possibly include Worldmark. I was wondering how successful this combination has been for others on this board. I'm currently in Texas, and Worldmark would add some nice western and Mid-south locations that I could drive to, as well as give me II access for the occasional trade. Can anyone comment on their experience with this combo?

Also, some specific questions:

1. I realize that WM properties will not be as upscale as HGVC, how noticeable is this difference?

2. I have studied the point charts for WM, and they are all over the map (not uniform like HGVC). In the WM system, I'd like to buy the equivalent of a 2-BR Platinum week (7000 HGVC). It seems to me that in WM, the point equivalent for this is something like 15,000 points (although I do know enough that the sweet spots are in 10k increments). Is that about right?

Thanks

 

[robertr55]

we like both HGVC & WM

Hi y'all. Current HGVC owner looking at expanding my TS portfolio to possibly include Worldmark. I was wondering how successful this combination has been for others on this board. I'm currently in Texas, and Worldmark would add some nice western and Mid-south locations that I could drive to, as well as give me II access for the occasional trade. Can anyone comment on their experience with this combo?


Also, some specific questions:

1. I realize that WM properties will not be as upscale as HGVC, how noticeable is this difference?

2. I have studied the point charts for WM, and they are all over the map (not uniform like HGVC). In the WM system, I'd like to buy the equivalent of a 2-BR Platinum week (7000 HGVC). It seems to me that in WM, the point equivalent for this is something like 15,000 points (although I do know enough that the sweet spots are in 10k increments). Is that about right?

Thanks

As for the "combo question", out of our 8 TSs, our favorites would be our Hyatt, HGVC & Worldmark, but I think a large part of that may be due to where we live (N.Cal) & what we use them for....but bottom line the HGVC/WM combo works well for us.

For how "upscale" they are....we use our I-Drive HGVC points almost exclusively for trading to Hawaii, mostly HHW, but sometimes Waikoloa, and occasionally SoCal, and we've been to most of the WM locations along the West Coast. So based on that experience (or lack of it), and the fact that everyone has a different scale for measuring "upscale", if I were assigning them on a 1-10 scale, and the HGVC units were a 10, the WM units probably average a 7. The HGVC units all have significantly nicer amenities (better appliances, beds, counter-tops, vanities, fixtures, rugs, tile, etc.) However, to be fair, our HGVC maint fees are just shy of 3 times our WM fees...so we think the WM units have much better "value for the money" than HGVC does. The WM points are more flexible than HGVC, and there are far more locations to choose from.

For # of points - I think you're pretty close, and the nice thing about WM is that even if you're off by a couple thousand points, there's always folks willing to sell/rent single-use points to you if needed. You might check out the WM owners website (www.wmowners.com) - they're a good source of info in addition to TUG.

 

[ronparise]

I cant speak to the combination of Worldmark/HGVC, but it seems to me its a personal question. If there are places you want to go and HGVC dosent provide them to you, but Worldmark does; add some Worldmark to the mix. If there is lots of overlap or Worldmark doesnt have any locations that do it for you...dont buy.

And that brings me to the "quality question" If Worldmark has a location and HGVC doesnt. And you want to visit that location. What does it matter which system has the best quality. For example I can assure you that the Worldmark resort in New Orleans is much nicer than the HGVC resort in New Orleans. In the last couple of months Ive stayed at 10 different Worldmark resorts, and in every case the place was clean, the bed was comfortable, and everything worked the way it was designed to work, ie the stove got hot and the refrigerator was cold.

as to how many Worldmark Credits to buy. For the resorts that have been in the system longer 10000 Credits for a 2 bedroom red week. However there has been some credit creep or credit inflation with the newer properties. 12000 I think would do it in most cases, maybe 15000. But as has already been said, if you need more, you can rent them in or borrow from next year,

And that brings be to the biggest difference between Worldmark and most other timeshares....the flexibility. Short stays and long stays are possible. or combinations with for example 3 days at one resort and 3 somewhere else. There are also cash options...dont even use your credits.

The reasons I bought Worldmark was for their locations, the cheap mf and the flexibility.

 

[presley]

I own both. I recommend owning both. I'll try to answer your questions, but this is my opinion.

1.) Very noticeable difference. HGVC has (some locations) valet parking, usually onsite dining, high end furnishings and high end toiletries. I feel like I am staying in a very nice apartment sized hotel when I stay at HGVC.

Everything at Worldmark resorts looks cheaper. You don't get toiletries, but you do get salt and pepper and spices. At their Seaside location, we had a gas grille right on our balcony. Hilton doesn't offer that.

2.) I think 10K - 15K credits would be enough depending on where you plan to stay and if you will stay a full week or not.

Again, I do recommend both. They are different, but do you need all the high end furnishings when you vacation? I spend very little time in my room. I usually eat, sleep and shower and that's about it. It doesn't matter to me what the kitchen looks like.

 

[GregT]

I agree with many of the comments above. Worldmark is an economical timeshare and the reservation system is very flexible to utilize. The properties are clean, functional and generally well-located (but not always in the prime spots). Points can be rented in abundance, and therefore it can be also be scaled for family reunions/multiple room reservations.

Finally, it trades extremely well within both II and RCI. I would consider a smaller package (5K - 10K credits) and then rent what else you need.

I use to own 25K credits, but then decided that I didn't need as many credits because of the ability to rent. So I sold 15K credits (and bought my first HGVC with the proceeds), and 10K works well for me.

Good luck and let us know what you decide!

Best,

Greg

 

[Yamabachi]

Many thanks for these thoughtful replies!

I think 10k WM will eventually be what I will shoot for, and I will rent points from other owners if I need it. But in comparing MFs only, I don't think that WM has that much of an advantage over HGVC (I own in Vegas). That said, as Ron points out, you can't really compare if WM has a location I want and HGVC doesn't.

Ron - one thing I do want to point out is that HGVC is a pretty flexible system also. You can do short and long stays (I have) - it's just not as efficient when considering booking fees (albeit nominal), which I understand WM does not have. (Nice, +1 for WM)

One extra question - this is really to help me convince DH that we should buy WM instead of a deeded TS. His parents had a bad experience with a non-deeded, "right to rent" kind of TS system, and is thus naturally biased against anything non-deeded. Anything y'all can tell me that will help me assuage his fears?

 

[presley]

One extra question - this is really to help me convince DH that we should buy WM instead of a deeded TS. His parents had a bad experience with a non-deeded, "right to rent" kind of TS system, and is thus naturally biased against anything non-deeded. Anything y'all can tell me that will help me assuage his fears?

We can help if we know what the issues were. I've had issues with WM, but that is because I bought for short stays and I can only book a short stay 9 months out and all the good stuff is gone by then. If I wanted a full week, I could book it at 13 months out, but I don't and that is why I bought WM.

I did book a 5 night stay for Yosemite at a highly desired time within the 9 month booking window. And, today, I picked up one night in Anaheim for $54. instead of using my points and housekeeping credit. So, it can be done, if I remember to constantly log in and look. Last night, the one night I wanted in Anaheim wasn't available (checking 2 resorts). This morning, there was the one exact night I needed open.

 

[Yamabachi]

My in-laws owned an interest "right to rent" timeshare system like WM, and it went bankrupt, leaving them in the hole without a tangible asset such as a "deed" for "protection". DH believes that having a deeded interest in what is a "tangible" asset will provide protection from being left high and dry on the initial buy-in cost.

I realize that WM isn't that costly to buy into resale, and that alone may be a good argument (IE, if we get XX years in WM and it went bankrupt, we would still be ahead). However, like most things in life, our outlook is influenced by many thing other than rationality, such as being burned in the past.

 

[presley]

My in-laws owned an interest "right to rent" timeshare system like WM, and it went bankrupt, leaving them in the hole without a tangible asset such as a "deed" for "protection". DH believes that having a deeded interest in what is a "tangible" asset will provide protection from being left high and dry on the initial buy-in cost.

I realize that WM isn't that costly to buy into resale, and that alone may be a good argument (IE, if we get XX years in WM and it went bankrupt, we would still be ahead). However, like most things in life, our outlook is influenced by many thing other than rationality, such as being burned in the past.

As far as that goes, I'd say that WM is great because if a Tsunami destroys a resort, the costs are throughout the membership. When you own a deed and something bad happens, you lose what you own and you need to pay a lot of $ to fix it.

Also, Worldmark is managed by Wyndham. The company is huge. They are buying up everything. I can't see them going belly up when they also run RCI and now Shell. They'd all have to go poof for that to happen.

I have a right to use campground that we bought 14 years ago. It's still often my preferred place over any timeshare. At any rate, it went bankrupt a couple years after we bought a big corp. took it over. They decided to allow previous owners to continue under their original contracts. I hated it at first because it got very busy and they built a whole building just for sales. We had 2 very large wildfires go through there. The second one was so bad, it took out most of the area and I didn't expect it to reopen. They told me it would reopen "someday" and to keep paying my MFs. I took that chance and it opened again in about a year, with much more to offer than it ever did before. Super long story, not short, having the financial backing of the big corp. saved the place and our original purchase. If the same family owned it that we bought from, it would have been toast. I think Worldmark is safe under such a large umbrella like Wyndham.

 

[GregT]

My in-laws owned an interest "right to rent" timeshare system like WM, and it went bankrupt, leaving them in the hole without a tangible asset such as a "deed" for "protection". DH believes that having a deeded interest in what is a "tangible" asset will provide protection from being left high and dry on the initial buy-in cost.

Worldmark is a mature timeshare system (25 years old?), and Wyndham is a well established company in this space. Worldmark has been expanding through addition of new properties and Wyndham is very creative.

I would pose the counter-argument to your husband, that many traditional deeded timeshares these days are struggling, and that it is the timeshares that are either affiliated with a chain (HGVC, Marriott, Starwood, Hyatt) or that have a strong points-based program (Worldmark, Diamond) that are doing better.

Best,

Greg

 

[ronparise]

Although Worldmark owners dont hold the deeds, I think its important to realize that Worldmark the Club does. The real estate is owned by the club and its owned debt free. There is honest to god value here. Wyndham is the manager and developer, but the members own the club and the club owns the property

 

[Yamabachi]

Many thanks to all the thoughtful replies. Showed DH this thread and it definitely helped.

 

[ronparise]

If the developer or the hoa go bust at any timeshare deeded or otherwise, I think you're screwed. Do your homework, pay your money and take your chances. And your chances are pretty good with Worldmark

 

[alwysonvac]

I own WorldMark (WM).

I suggest that you spend some time reading the reviews and looking at the photos on WMowners, TUG and Tripadvisor.
Here's a link to the WM resort photos and reviews by WorldMark owners - http://www.wmowners.com/worldmark/resorts/list/WM.

For example, some WM resorts don't have air conditioning. This can be a deal breaker for some.
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32089
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17503


I wanted a decent trader with Interval International (II) so we could exchange into the other hotel based timeshares every other year.

Worldmark met our needs.
- low maintenance fees (less than $1K)
- low purchase price (less than $5K)
- access to both II & RCI
- banking and borrowing
- flexibility to exchange into any size unit
- allows members to rent additional points from other members.

But with any system rules can change and if it does we’ll sell and move on.

So far, I've only used my WM credits for trading with Interval International (II) and RCI.
With II, you have access to the other hotel based timeshares such as Marriott, Westin, Four Seasons and Hyatt.
With RCI, you can use it to exchange into the Disney and the HGVC resorts (w/o the HGVC owner restriction).
NOTE: WM Resale owners only have access to RCI weeks (not RCI Points).

Also with RCI & II, it only cost WM owners
- 8,000 credits for a studio
- 9,000 credits for a one bedroom
- 10,000 credits for a two bedroom
- 12,000 credits for a three bedroom.
Depending on the location, you can book better accomodations via an exchange for the same amount of credits or less(of course, you'll have an exchange fee but it's worth it for Westin, Marriott, Four Seasons and Hyatt).

Other WM PROs
WM owners also have the advantage of reduced credits for exchanges made during flexchange (RCI is within 45 days/ II is within 59 days). It's only 4,000 credits for any unit size.
NOTE: If you have the flexibility to book during the Flexchange timeframe, you can catch some very good deals.

WM owners also have online access to RCI's Extra Vacations & Last Call through the WM portal (HGVC owners have online access to Last Call). If you get a II membership, you'll also have online access to II's Cash Getaways as well.

Good Luck

 

[Yamabachi]

Thanks, alwysonvac! Kinda surprised by the no A/C thing at some of the resorts.

I wasn't looking at WM specifically for trading, but the pros on trading you bring up are very interesting. Definitely makes WM much more attractive for sure!

 

[alwysonvac]

Thanks, alwysonvac! Kinda surprised by the no A/C thing at some of the resorts.

I wasn't looking at WM specifically for trading, but the pros on trading you bring up are very interesting. Definitely makes WM much more attractive for sure!

Trading works for me since I can travel anything during the year. I also setup ongoing search requests more than a year out.

95% of my Interval International posts on the TUG Sighting Forum is using my WM account - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

Here are some examples:
San Francisco - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202599
Carlsbad - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200641
Key West - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188264
Nassau - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199996
Kauai - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178571
Oahu - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201700
Orlando - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201720


Keep in mind with trading, most of the competition is during school breaks/holidays when most families travel. With Interval International, it's almost impossible to get a two bedroom during these high demand weeks at some of the popular destinations. Also, Marriott and Starwood have a preference period within II that given them access to their sister resorts first before all other II members. All two & three bedrooms during high demand weeks are generally booked during this preference window.

NOTE: Spring Break appears to be the easiest to book out of the other school holidays/breaks that overlap across the US. For example, I've seen weeks online at Marriott's Newport Coast Villas during Spring Break.

 

[JohnPaul]

If the developer or the hoa go bust at any timeshare deeded or otherwise, I think you're screwed. Do your homework, pay your money and take your chances. And your chances are pretty good with Worldmark

Again, it all depends on the structure. Both Vacation Internationale and Worldmark have a similar structure (as noted above) where the resorts are actually owned by a distinct entity and are debt free (Vacation Internationale Trust and WorldMark the Club). Owners of points own those entities (they are not owned by the developer or manager.)

At one point Sunterra (now merged into Diamond) was the manager for VI and Sunterra went bankrupt. Other than management distraction, there was no impact to my ownership. VI eventually took back management and is owner controlled.

So...I really don't think having a deed is that big a deal if you have this type of ownership structure.

 

[PassionForTravel]

I was the opposite of your husband. I was leary of buying a deeded TS after seeing what happened to the people at Point of Poipu. While I've owned WM I've seen the following happen. Solvang closed due to flooding. San Francisco closed due to broken pipe and flooding. Valley Isle closed because of fire. Canmore closed due to flooding. The MF's just go up by approximately the same amount each year.

Most of the no air conditioning are locations where it's only needed for a short time during the year i.e. Big Bear at 6k feet in SoCal just don't go in August. Kauai again don't go in June, July, Aug. We were just there in Nov and it wasn't a problem.

Most of the newer locations are very nice. Some of the older ones

As for getting units for less than a week. Between 9 months and 13 months I pick up the odd day. Then at 9 months out I put in a wait list request for the days I'm missing. I've never not gotten what I wanted. But then again I'm not trying for a 3bd Oceanfront at Seaside, Washington in August.

Ian

 

[VacationForever]

As for getting units for less than a week. Between 9 months and 13 months I pick up the odd day. Then at 9 months out I put in a wait list request for the days I'm missing. I've never not gotten what I wanted.

Ian

Can you please explain what you mean by picking up the odd day between 9 months and 13 months? To book less than a week we need to wait for the 9 month mark...

 

[slum808]

Between 13-9 months in red season you need to book 7+ days. But because you can check in/out on any day of the week, you'll see random days that get orphaned. You can book these days which are less than 7, as long as you book all that were available consecutively.

 

[VacationForever]

Between 13-9 months in red season you need to book 7+ days. But because you can check in/out on any day of the week, you'll see random days that get orphaned. You can book these days which are less than 7, as long as you book all that were available consecutively.

I did not know that. Thank you!

 

[LLW]

I did not know that. Thank you!

This thread on wmowners.com talks about booking for less than 7 nights:
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15740

The 9 months restriction used to be 90 days. The rules change/improve over time, and wmowners is a good place to learn both from the beginning, and as rules change, that is the place to learn updates. The Timeshare Tips & Tricks forum should be read multiple times by new owners.

One great point about WM is the presence of a strong owner community from whom to learn/share.

 

[Yamabachi]

Trading works for me since I can travel anything during the year. I also setup ongoing search requests more than a year out.

95% of my Interval International posts on the TUG Sighting Forum is using my WM account - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

Here are some examples:
San Francisco - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202599
Carlsbad - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200641
Key West - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188264
Nassau - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199996
Kauai - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178571
Oahu - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201700
Orlando - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201720


Keep in mind with trading, most of the competition is during school breaks/holidays when most families travel. With Interval International, it's almost impossible to get a two bedroom during these high demand weeks at some of the popular destinations. Also, Marriott and Starwood have a preference period within II that given them access to their sister resorts first before all other II members. All two & three bedrooms during high demand weeks are generally booked during this preference window.

NOTE: Spring Break appears to be the easiest to book out of the other school holidays/breaks that overlap across the US. For example, I've seen weeks online at Marriott's Newport Coast Villas during Spring Break.

Thanks again! Your posts have definitely made me more excited about trading using WM - I was primarily focused on in-network resorts and perhaps an occasional trade using II. It now occurs to me that with some flexibility, I could use WM as a more economical means to get into HGVC Kingsland, and to trade into DVC, both of which would likely give me a better bang for the buck than using the WM resorts in those areas.

 

[PassionForTravel]

Yup you can definitely trade into Kingsland with WM. I did it earlier this year during the 2014's bulk load. I ended up throwing it back and got a lagoon tower 1 bd instead.

Don't discount WM's locations totally some of very nice. One of our favorites is Kihei on Maui. It's not Maui Ocean Club or Westin Kaanapali but it's quite nice with a great beach right across the street. That gives you another island which pairs up nicely with the two you get through HGVC without having to exchange.

I would also guess that most of the WM locations you can drive to are going to be pretty easy to pick up as inventory specials or bonus time since most WM owners live out west.

Ian

 

[PearlCity]

I got kingsland with wm in march during last years bulk. Just keep in mind with Hilton exchanges you have the one in four rule so for me I'm going to kingsland this year. I can't go back until after four years has past.