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Help Needed -- Pls Send Starwood Resort Docs

calgarygary

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For those of you that didn't see this thread, there was a very interesting decision with WorldMark. We know that Starwood lurks here, maybe they will do the right thing and provide the info. to those members that request it without making a lawsuit necessary. This WM decision could have impact on HOA's throughout the ts industry - especially those HOA's that are controlled by developers/management companies and not owners.
 

jarta

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Disclosures by a HOA board

This decision, that WorldMark (the HOA board, really) has to give or let a requesting owner see and copy the names and contact information for other owners - at least as to the same property, is not surprising. It's the law in every State I've ever heard of. Members of any association (timeshare or otherwise) have a right to know and contact other owners and to look at the property's financials.

In Illinois, where I live, a HOA board can be held responsible for the plaintiff's costs and attorneys fees when it does not produce or make available what it should.

I'm sure Starwood is aware of this principle of community living covered by these laws. And, I'm sure there would be foot-dragging if such a request was ever made. But, do you have an example of any owner asking Starwood (or a HOA) to see or get information like HOA financials and contact information for other owners - and being denied? ... eom
 

calgarygary

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This decision, that WorldMark (the HOA board, really) has to give or let a requesting owner see and copy the names and contact information for other owners - at least as to the same property, is not surprising. It's the law in every State I've ever heard of. Members of any association (timeshare or otherwise) have a right to know and contact other owners and to look at the property's financials.

In Illinois, where I live, a HOA board can be held responsible for the plaintiff's costs and attorneys fees when it does not produce or make available what it should.

I'm sure Starwood is aware of this principle of community living covered by these laws. And, I'm sure there would be foot-dragging if such a request was ever made. But, do you have an example of any owner asking Starwood (or a HOA) to see or get information like HOA financials and contact information for other owners - and being denied? ... eom

First, why would there be foot dragging - it's the law and according to you, Starwood always complies with the law. Except in a few cases - such as VR owners requesting a detailed explanation of their sa; or owners being lied to during ts presentations (shouldn't a company like Starwood be above it, by most accounts DVC is); or in my case, transferring a property into my name without a contract just to name a small number of examples.

We appreciate that you are a fan, and many of us like/love their resorts but recognize the business practices of SVN for what they often are - a typical ts company that occasionally drops into the gutter. I know that we are not going to change each other's viewpoints, but I ask you to think about this - why is Starwood managing the HOA in a manner to prevent owner control? What are they fearing - anarchy? I think I know what they fear - loss of the golden egg. Part of why Starwood can operate a much smaller ts system but achieve almost the same bottom line as Marriott is their use of ts units without compensation. Great for Starwood, not so good for the owners.
 

jarta

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gary, ... "First, why would there be foot dragging - it's the law and according to you, Starwood always complies with the law"

gary, gary, gary! I believe all timeshare salesmen are like all automobile salesmen - creeps! But, that doesn't stop me from buying a car when I need one. Or, driving the one I bought.

I've also made it clear that Starwood can be tagged with being high handed, inefficient and greedy. But, I keep paying those MF and enjoying myself at the SVO resorts because - overall - I think that Starwood, along with the boards of the HOAs, does a pretty good job managing the SVO properties.

An organization that can be high handed, inefficient and greedy can also drag its feet when faced with a request to empty its database to a person who obviously would like to fire it. But, I have no doubt that after delaying as long as it could (each side can consider the other annoying) Starwood would eventually comply with the request.

Why would Starwood like to maintain control? Why, because it makes money managing timeshare properties. The question always is this: Is the devil you know better or worse than the devil you don't know? In other words (and I was faced with the decision to fire a property manager), who do you hire next?

The world is not a perfect place nor one whose deficiencies we should always try to control. It makes us cranky. ;) ... eom
 

DavidnRobin

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for the last 3 years - MFs at WKORV have increased at a average of >10% per year...

at WSJ - we were just given a special assessment for a refurbish of over $700 per year for three years (w/o Owner vote) - when just a few years ago this was turned down by Owners (due to lack of Owner participation in this vote) that was 1/3 of this amount (although this new assessment includes a roof). That is $700 per year over our existing MFs (that have also increased) per unit per week - that is ALOT of money for a refurbish and roof!

which devil would that be again - the one I know or the one I don't know?

it turns out that I do not know either... because there is a lack of transparancy and true Owner participation in these decisions.

the first vote did not go through - not because the Owners didnt want it - but because they did not get >50% of Owners voting - why didn't more Owners vote??? because they were either not given adequate time to vote OR they never got the vote proxy. (I know this because I asked around...)

I am not saying that I do not want a refurbish - because I do - as do many other WSJ Owners - but who decided? what processes did they go through? We OWNERS found out about this AFTER all was decided.

So.. I should just blindly trust them because they are the devil that I know - eventhough they are SVO puppets?
 
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jarta

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DavidnRobin, ... The past 3 years the price of gas, milk and Cubs tickets all went up by more than 10% a year. At the end of this year, gas prices dropped.

Last year, the price of homes dropped and foreclosures went up. This year unemployment is up and the cost of clothing is way down because everything is on sale.

The question is not just the percentage up or down. The question is this: is the Kierland timeshare a good value? I think you are missing that point.

I think Kierland is a good value and a terrific place to stay - from late September to early May. And, despite the increases over the last 3 years, I read on TUG frequently that the best Starwood timeshare to buy is Kierland because it is mandatory and the MF are so low. Are those posters wrong?

BTW, I followed the TUG advice and bought my timeshare at Kierland on eBay and I'll be at Kierland the 1st week in March for Spring Training. Can't wait, despite the fact that the MF went up about $60 this year. That's about the cost of 2 box seat tickets for one game at HoHoKam. :D ... eom
 

jarta

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DavidnRobin, ... "at WSJ - we were just given a special assessment for a refurbish of over $700 per year for three years (w/o Owner vote) - when just a few years ago this was turned down by Owners (due to lack of Owner participation in this vote) that was 1/3 of this amount (although this new assessment includes a roof). That is $700 per year over our existing MFs (that have also increased) per unit per week - that is ALOT of money for a refurbish and roof!"

First, anyone who owns at St. John and complains is not getting my sympathy. I've tried to trade in there, but there was never any vacancy because the owners won't go elsewhere.

Second, if you feel you can't rent out your unit for more than the increased MF at St. John, I'll take your reservation and make you even. lol!

Third, do you have any idea what the costs are for construction on a small island? They are outrageous because skilled workers have to be ferried in (thus being less efficient) and every piece of material must be barged in.

Before buying timeshares, I looked at purchasing at Haig Point and/or Melrose on Daufuskie Island just off Hilton Head. Nice places, but accessible only by boat. The existing homes were quite expensive. I was told that if I bought a vacant lot and built, the cost of construction would be 30% more than on the mainland. So I passed - privacy has its cost.

Finally, unless the roofs failed surprisingly early, you might have a good complaint with the HOA board about the need for a special assessment. It appears the yearly MF were way too low. As I have been saying in earlier posts, necessary expenses must be paid and, in the end, its just what pocket (operating or reserves or special assessment) and when. If the reserves aren't there, the bill must still be paid. Ergo, a special assessment becomes necessary. But, it's tough to impose one in this economy. Maybe deferring the work by defeating the earlier proposal for a special assessment increase wasn't so wise for the owners. ... eom
 

DavidnRobin

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interesting post - i think you are missing the point.
 

fasha39

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Most jurisdictions have a law that states what % of the total operating budget must be kept in reserve, typically the amount is the bare minimum and if there was ever a catastrophic event a cash call would be a necessity. This is one of the problems faced for a board, most everyone wants to keep annual fees to a bare minimum, when something happens and the reserve can’t cover it those same people scream blue murder when they need to buck up. It’s a no-win~no-win situation. Additionally if one is concerned about the long range planning around such major expenditures, ownership should insist on a reserve study for their complex; this study, if completed by qualified personnel, will set out a lifespan for pretty much everything i.e. roofs, windows, patio furniture, maintenance equipment etc. This is the transparency that can help eliminate the hue and cry when things need to be replaced.
 

LisaRex

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First, anyone who owns at St. John and complains is not getting my sympathy. I've tried to trade in there, but there was never any vacancy because the owners won't go elsewhere.

Until this use year when Starwood finally adjusted the SOs for WSJ,
owners of a 3 bdrm villa were given:

81,000 SOs (low season)
95,700 SOs (shoulder season) or
148,100 SOs (high season)

Owners of a 2 bdrm villa at WSJ were given

67,100 SOs (low season)
81,000 SOs (shoulder season)
129,800 SOs (high season)

Given that you were paying the highest MFs in the system, how often would YOU have exchanged? Would you have traded your 2 bdrm in the Caribbean for a studio or 1 bdrm on the mainland? I wouldn't have.

FWIW, owners of ALL TSs that are experiencing significant increases in MFs get my sympathy. Whether or not I ever can personally stay in that TS is completely irrelevant.
 
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jarta

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Lisa, ... "Until this use year when Starwood finally adjusted the SOs for WSJ, owners (at St. John had lesser Staroptions)."

True! But now that they have comparable Staroptions, is reserving at St. John that much easier for anyone who doesn't own there? Are the St. John owners flocking to go skiing, flocking to Orlando to visit Mickey or traveling out to Hawaii? It seems to me that for the most part they are staying right where the they like it - on the wonderful beaches of St. John.

A lot of this argument back and forth is pointless. As you say, all TS owners are seeing higher MF. It's not an "evil" Starwood problem. It's not spineless, venal or "in cahoots" Starwood HOA board members. It's that an older timeshare property needs more maintenance (and a quicker refurbishment from reserves dependent on how heavy the use is) than a brand new property.

There are those of us (like me) who don't mind paying a $40-50 increased MF for a clean, modern place to stay in a great area that allows us to trade into other clean, modern places to stay in other great areas. There are also TUGgers who would object to paying a nickel more for staying anywhere. It probably depends on how today's economy is affecting each owner and, possibly, if an owner "stretched" to buy the timeshare(s).

So, with that, I say adieu. Talk among yourselves. I'll listen in, but hold my tongue - and enjoy my Starwood weeks. :) ... eom
 

calgarygary

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DavidnRobin, ... "at WSJ - we were just given a special assessment for a refurbish of over $700 per year for three years (w/o Owner vote) - when just a few years ago this was turned down by Owners (due to lack of Owner participation in this vote) that was 1/3 of this amount (although this new assessment includes a roof). That is $700 per year over our existing MFs (that have also increased) per unit per week - that is ALOT of money for a refurbish and roof!"

First, anyone who owns at St. John and complains is not getting my sympathy. I've tried to trade in there, but there was never any vacancy because the owners won't go elsewhere.

Second, if you feel you can't rent out your unit for more than the increased MF at St. John, I'll take your reservation and make you even. lol!

Third, do you have any idea what the costs are for construction on a small island? They are outrageous because skilled workers have to be ferried in (thus being less efficient) and every piece of material must be barged in.

Before buying timeshares, I looked at purchasing at Haig Point and/or Melrose on Daufuskie Island just off Hilton Head. Nice places, but accessible only by boat. The existing homes were quite expensive. I was told that if I bought a vacant lot and built, the cost of construction would be 30% more than on the mainland. So I passed - privacy has its cost.

Finally, unless the roofs failed surprisingly early, you might have a good complaint with the HOA board about the need for a special assessment. It appears the yearly MF were way too low. As I have been saying in earlier posts, necessary expenses must be paid and, in the end, its just what pocket (operating or reserves or special assessment) and when. If the reserves aren't there, the bill must still be paid. Ergo, a special assessment becomes necessary. But, it's tough to impose one in this economy. Maybe deferring the work by defeating the earlier proposal for a special assessment increase wasn't so wise for the owners. ... eom

Just another example of how little you really understand what SVN & HOA's are doing to the owners. Starwood owns the majority of units at St. Johns and would rather have the units sit empty than allow us to trade into St. Johns with our staroptions. Jarta, you really need to do research into what is going on with the HOA's rather than assume that your experience of a benevolant HOA applies. Maybe some of the sa wouldn't be necessary if Starwood compensated the HOA for use of the units. Maybe if there was transparency and a full budget disclosure provided there wouldn't be $80K/unit expenditures on what is clearly improvements that cost less than half that. Get off your soap box and explore what is going on within the system.
 

tlpnet

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Until this use year when Starwood finally adjusted the SOs for WSJ,
owners of a 3 bdrm villa were given:

81,000 SOs (low season)
95,700 SOs (shoulder season) or
148,100 SOs (high season)

Owners of a 2 bdrm villa at WSJ were given

67,100 SOs (low season)
81,000 SOs (shoulder season)
129,800 SOs (high season)

Given that you were paying the highest MFs in the system, how often would YOU have exchanged? Would you have traded your 2 bdrm in the Caribbean for a studio or 1 bdrm on the mainland? I wouldn't have.

FWIW, owners of ALL TSs that are experiencing significant increases in MFs get my sympathy. Whether or not I ever can personally stay in that TS is completely irrelevant.

Although slightly off this topic, the highest MFs in the system are not at WSJ (until this year's special assessment), the highest MFs in the system are at HRA.

-tim
 

LisaRex

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Although slightly off this topic, the highest MFs in the system are not at WSJ (until this year's special assessment), the highest MFs in the system are at HRA.

Egads. Then you both have my empathy.

I'm checking out TS prices at my favorite TS on Hilton Head, Marriott Monarch. MFs for a 2 bdrm are under $1000 for a week. I realize there's a COLA for being on Maui, WSJ, HRA, but I get a sinking feeling that we're getting taken for a ride.
 

DavidnRobin

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Until this use year when Starwood finally adjusted the SOs for WSJ,
owners of a 3 bdrm villa were given:

81,000 SOs (low season)
95,700 SOs (shoulder season) or
148,100 SOs (high season)

Owners of a 2 bdrm villa at WSJ were given

67,100 SOs (low season)
81,000 SOs (shoulder season)
129,800 SOs (high season)

Given that you were paying the highest MFs in the system, how often would YOU have exchanged? Would you have traded your 2 bdrm in the Caribbean for a studio or 1 bdrm on the mainland? I wouldn't have.

FWIW, owners of ALL TSs that are experiencing significant increases in MFs get my sympathy. Whether or not I ever can personally stay in that TS is completely irrelevant.

The WSJ 2Bd TH Hillside (VG) in low season (ours) now have 81K SOs - they were 67.1K SOs. The seasons are different between the VG units and the new Bay Vista units (BV)

So these amounts may be the old ones.

The MFs for WSJ VG units haven't gone up that much - it is the special assessment is about $800 additional - that last's for 3 years. side note: what was hilarious that they used gorilla math to say the increased only averaged around $620 {not true...}

BUT that wasn't the point (perhaps I wasn't clear enough...) - the point was/is about HOA transparency and fair representation - simple as that. I do not think upon them as evil or even collusionary - we love our resorts (how could we not - WSJ, WKORV, WPORV, WKV) - and we bought SVO for a reason - and most of them were purchased with open eyes. I have never said differently - the OP was about going after aspects of SVO - I would like to see a change that we could impact and that is the level of the HOA - that could be impacted (by contract/OM). The rest we signed on the dotted line... so bid adieu if you want - but do not come off like we do not know what we are talking about... {it's insulting... IMO}
 
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DavidnRobin

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btw - j4sharks - I have PDF files of the OMs for WKORV, WKORVN, and WPORV - I think I sent the first 2 to you when you went to buy your WKORV resale (if I recall correctly) - let me know if you want me to resend.
 

LisaRex

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The WSJ 2Bd TH Hillside (VG) in low season (ours) now have 81K SOs - they were 67.1K SOs. The seasons are different between the VG units and the new Bay Vista units (BV) So these amounts may be the old ones.

Yes, that's why I said, "Until this use year..." I was showing the old SOs to illustrate why few WSJ Owners used to trade out.

jarta said:
True! But now that they have comparable Staroptions, is reserving at St. John that much easier for anyone who doesn't own there?

I'm leaving for St. John in less than 3 weeks on an SVN trade that I snagged the first time I ever tried to get into WSJ. Not sure if this is a true representation of future availability, but when I called there were two 2 bdrm villas to choose from - a regular one and a loft. And this was for Platinum Plus season.
 

DavidnRobin

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Sorry - I interpreted 'this year' as 2009 - where the SVN SOs are 81K for our unit - so if we were to exchange our unit via SVN in 2009 we could get a 1Bd in WKORV (I was planning this until we picked up our 2nd WSJ week)instead of a studio.

I think the SVN availability for WSJ will be open for a while with the new BV villas (as predicted a few years back).

We can't wait to get back in June.

Make sure you call O'Connor and check that you reservation was made - of course be prepared to only create confusion. lol

it is just that way - be prepared for it because... 'You are not in Kansas anymore' as Glinda said to Dorothy...
 
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