Help me understand!

[CKNewEngland]

Hi All,

Thank you for the information over the years! Can someone clarify for me these questions.

Us-
-We have a 3 bedroom Grande Vista, bought resale due to Tugg.
-We are in a recision period with buying the 1,000 Trust points for $9200, that my husband fell for last week.
-I am not opposed to joining the DV club, as we have a Gold week and little kids entering school will eventually force a Spring break week
-I am okay with the theory of trading 3 years of Gold usage for 2 weeks of Spring Break in Orlando

Questions-
The Salesman says that I will have access to all of the Trust available and can combine them with the Legacy points to get Trust properties?
Is this true or do I need all Trust points for a Trust property?
He also said that the new minimum for point purchase is now 1,500, instead of 1,000 as of last Wednesday. And that the point price is now $9.60. Since I have not seen a post, I wanted to verify this statement.
Why do some people get PlusPoints and not others?
He said that all available items can go to either Legacy or Trust point owners can get the desired week.
He said that a Legacy owner with Trust points will have more weight to pull a request. Someone with all Trust points can pull either and will have more weight.

Interesting items-

-He also said and I had not read here, that if two of us were on the phone at the same time, that a person making the longest reservation days wise, would be given a request first. I assume that he meant weight list, because if two of us were on the phone and a destination was available, then why wouldn't it be instant confirmation? How would a reservation operator know that someone else was inquiring about a particular week available?

-The lady doing the closing also had two pieces of interesting information. (She is the manager of the closing dept at Grande Vista.) That 40,000 owners had joined the program. 40,000 was said multiple times.

-She also said that Marriott will implement a resale dept, which we knew on Tugg. The main focus for Marriott will be to buy back all of the Trust point resales.

-Her 3rd piece of information was that Marriott kicked around (and could have functioned) using 38 cents for maintenance for the Trust points, but they wanted to make sure that they didn't need to raise them for 2 to 3 years, which might look like they had falsely come in with lower fees in the beginning. She said that the 40 cents would be raised in probably 2 to 3 years.

-The Salesman's take on one of the reasons for getting away from II was that so many non-Marriott owners were using the resort. He said that they would rather have the unit sit empty, than wear and tear by non-Marriott owners. This struck me odd, as my view is that the best sales tool of a Marriott is to stay and enjoy the product. If Marriott doesn't keep selling, then they don't build and then my choices don't increase in the future.

-He also kept pushing that those that bought a more expensive week- such as Hawaii, should have more pull than me. I countered with that is factored into the DV points given for a week.

-We didn't get the Marriott points or Disney dollars for the point presentation. They said that because we booked directly with the rep that doesn't go through the marketing dept. That was depressing and we asked several times. He also had us tour the mock up of the new place in Orlando. And we still didn't get the bonus.

I think that you guys would be just a little proud of me for being able to offer up some interesting arguments. He said that I knew more about the details, than some real estate lawyers that come in to the presentation.

Help me to formulate my argument to convince my husband to rescind!!!!!

 

[elaine]

I would rescind

If your primary plan for the next few years is to go to Orlando, you can easily get a week thru an II trade--I am staying in a 2BR GV the week of Christmas-New Years which I traded with a non-Marriott. A 3 BR might be a little tougher, as there are fewer units, but if you could manage in a large 2 BR, then you should have no issues. If you have a lock off---I had read over the years on TUG that a number have had success trading the LO back into larger units in Orlando, so you might even be able to swing an extra week.
With the Marriott advantage, you should have no issues getting at least a 2 BR Spring break at GV, or at least at one of the other Orlando Marriotts--personally, I think you have an excellent chance of even getting the new one, Lakeshore Reserve, if you wanted.
I assume you got a decent resale deal. I would not pay almost $10K to get points at this time, esp. if you are happy going to Orlando for the 5 years or so (we have been for 8 years every Easter week and are still loving it)! If you are interested in other places in the DC--take a hard look at the points--the beach at HHI in summer is a lot of points, except at older properties--which you could most likely get with an II trade anyway. Elaine

 

[Herb33]

If you're in the rescission period, you should have hard copies of all the legal documents in your possession.

My advice: rescind, take your time studying the documents, and ask lots of questions of other owners you can trust.

You can not trust anything the MVC sales & marketing staff verbally communicate to you.

Down the road if you decide to re-sign the points contract based on what you've learned, the slight increase in price-per-point will be worthwhile in terms of your confidence in the product.

IMHO you should not base your purchase decision on one-time buy-today incentives. If you're not willing to buy without these incentives, don't buy.

 

[windje2000]

If you're in the rescission period, you should have hard copies of all the legal documents in your possession.

My advice: rescind, take your time studying the documents, and ask lots of questions of other owners you can trust.

You can not trust anything the MVC sales & marketing staff verbally communicate to you.

Down the road if you decide to re-sign the points contract based on what you've learned, the slight increase in price-per-point will be worthwhile in terms of your confidence in the product.

IMHO you should not base your purchase decision on one-time buy-today incentives. If you're not willing to buy without these incentives, don't buy.

I second Herb's advice -- Read about his experience here

 

[Herb33]

One more thing ...

When your salesman says you'll have more booking power as an enrolled legacy owner if you also own trust points, remember this: he makes his money by selling you points, not by enrolling your weeks.

 

[siberiavol]

A week end night in Grand Vista three bedroom cost you over a 1000 points and over 4000 for a week during the spring break period. They can play with the numbers all they want to but that is the reality.

You can currently get a Getaway for a one bedroom in March there for less than $700.You could do that and trade with II for example part of your three bedroom and end up with a 2 bedroom and a one bedroom with lock off left over. You wouldn't have the $9600 initial outlook.

You could buy another unit resale. You could do nothing and trade into that time period probably with no problem yearly with a little planning.

$9600.00 is real money. There are much better options with that money in this market in my opinion Rescind and get him to look at those before making a decision.

 

[Big Matt]

I've stayed in Cypress Harbour and Grande Vista during spring break multiple times. It isn't a difficult trade via II. This spring break coming up in April, I got 2 2BR Cypress Harbour weeks for a 1BR and a studio.

 

[Venter]

Resale

Looking at ebay winning prices at the moment you will easily be able to buy a two bedroom GV and still have change from your £9200. I bet you should even be able to pick up a 3 bedroom if you are patient.

Good luck in your decision. I am thinking of joining but do not intend to use my week to up trade with points as I think this is a loosing situation considering the skim etc. However if I go during cheaper times(points wise) I think this will be my option as the exchange will be easier and probably less stressful than in II and I go for longer than a week. However if I want to go in higher seasons in the future I will probably buy a resale week during that time and be more certain of getting the week I want and pay less in MF's(It costs more points to uptrade and therefore you will need more than one years points - therefore more cost per week - Also the trust points MF's also work out dearer for higher demand weeks and as you have been told will not necessarily be getting you that week because true trust points will weigh more than your combined points.)

 

[Venter]

How

I've stayed in Cypress Harbour and Grande Vista during spring break multiple times. It isn't a difficult trade via II. This spring break coming up in April, I got 2 2BR Cypress Harbour weeks for a 1BR and a studio.

Sorry to be stupid but how did you do this outside of flexchange? I always thought you could only do searches seeing the same value as the deposit you are searching with and that this applied for requests as well.

 

[Stefa]

Sorry to be stupid but how did you do this outside of flexchange? I always thought you could only do searches seeing the same value as the deposit you are searching with and that this applied for requests as well.

Cypress Harbour only has 2br units, so you can request a trade into CH with any size unit.

You are correct that II will not allow you to place on ongoing search for a larger unit if the resord has units the same size as what you are searching with.

 

[reedps]

I own a 2bd platinum GV and was able to lock it off and use II to trade the one bdrm side for a 2 bdrm for next spring break at MGV (this was after the points program was introduced). The week was sitting there online. I've also traded my 1 bdrm for a 3 bdrm at MGV last summer...all outside of flexchange. My 1 bdrm will frequently pull 2 bdrms outside of flexchange if available. (sometimes my studio will) I would think you'd be better off using II for your spring break trades. I've not done one, but I've heard getaways in Orlando are plentiful in II as well.

 

[Stefa]

Maybe someone has mentioned this already, but the points will carry a $400 annual MF in addition to the initial cost. I agree with the advice you have already received to stick with II.

 

[DanCali]

Questions-
The Salesman says that I will have access to all of the Trust available and can combine them with the Legacy points to get Trust properties?
Is this true or do I need all Trust points for a Trust property?

This is a flat out lie (or at least what they led you to believe is flat out wrong). I commented on this here.

More accurately, they make you believe you can access trust properties with legacy points directly, when in fact you can't. Only trust points have access trust inventory directly. With legacy points it will always be an exchange, whether you buy points or not. Somehow, they manage to get you to believe otherwise (whether they literally lie or say some half truth like "you can access trust inventory" while omitting the word "directly") and never correct that misunderstanding.

It's a shame how many people are misled into thinking they are beating the system by shelling out $10K only to be disappointed later on. Marriott has lost its way and in now in the category with Westgate and other shady developers.

Interesting items-

-The lady doing the closing also had two pieces of interesting information. (She is the manager of the closing dept at Grande Vista.) That 40,000 owners had joined the program. 40,000 was said multiple times.

The lady is lying too. As recently as September 30 it was 22,000... If it took 3+ months to enroll 22K, I doubt it took 2 weeks to enroll the next 20K


These people will say anything to close a sale. The best thing to do is ignore any "good for today incentives" (they will still be there tomorrow, but odds are you won't be once you do your homework), and go do your homework. In the meantime, rescind immediately.

 

[hotcoffee]

. . .
Questions-
The Salesman says that I will have access to all of the Trust available and can combine them with the Legacy points to get Trust properties?
Is this true or do I need all Trust points for a Trust property?

Trust points and enrolled week points can be combined to reserve inventory in the exchange program. Most of that inventory is, however, probably going to be Trust inventory due to most Trust owners exchanging. Both of the weeks I reserved for 2011 using points were from resorts having weeks in the Trust. That does not prove that the exact weeks I reserved were Trust weeks, but I suspect that at least one of them was. I learned that multiple weeks were available from Ko Olina from the peak travel season (early July). It is doubtful that large numbers of Ko Olina enrolled owners had elected points for 2011 just prior to my inquiring about a week there. More likely, those available weeks were from the Trust.

He also said that the new minimum for point purchase is now 1,500, instead of 1,000 as of last Wednesday. And that the point price is now $9.60. Since I have not seen a post, I wanted to verify this statement.

There was a thread in this forum that suggested the point price had been increased to $9.60. But, I have not seen or heard anything about enrolled weeks owners purchasing points having to now buy a minimum of 1500 points. I am skeptical of that because the 1000 point mimimum for enrolled weeks owners was in the documentation. It seems unlikely they would change that this soon.

Why do some people get PlusPoints and not others?

The last I have heard was one still gets 400 Pluspoints for enrolling. That was supposed to last until December 31. The extra Pluspoints (beyond the 400) were for buying extra points. If you buy 1500, you get a total of 1800 Pluspoints. That is how many I got.

He said that all available items can go to either Legacy or Trust point owners can get the desired week.

It is supposed to be first-come, first-serve for the exchange inventory. Trust owners would have first crack at Trust inventory. But that inventory is limited to what is actually in the the Trust. If Trust owners want to exchange into something else, they will have to compete against the other exchangers (both enrolled weeks owners and other Trust owners).

He said that a Legacy owner with Trust points will have more weight to pull a request. Someone with all Trust points can pull either and will have more weight. . . .

I don't think he was accurate with this statement. The inventory you can reserve when you exchange will be what is available in the exchange inventory when the VOA checks for you. If you have enough points and the desired week is available, I would think you will get it. I cannot imagine how the VOA you are talking to would know that someone else at that exact moment is inquiring about the same inventory with a different VOA. A VOA does, however, appear to be able to put a hold on a week if you express interest in it. I would assume that others would not be able to get that week unless you decided to not reserve it and the hold is released.

Overall, the points program will work for some people, and others it will not. The advantages are the flexibility of reserving less than a full week, seven day check-ins, banking and borrowing points. The program is what it is. There is a significant amount of hostility toward it here on TUG. You should weigh all of the options and decide whether the program will work for you. It works great for me.

 

[windje2000]

There was a thread in this forum that suggested the point price had been increased to $9.60.



The last I have heard was one still gets 400 Pluspoints for enrolling. That was supposed to last until December 31.

Re: the points price of $9.60 Link. Based on subsequent TUG posted experiences, the points price is a 'soft' number.

EDITED TO ADD: Its still $9.20 for weeks owners, which would make sense since many haven't even been informed of DClub..

I thought the enrollment bonus for weeks owners was 800 points, at least until 12/31/10.

 

[ACE1]

Just went to a presentation at MGC we were told 9.20 with minimum 1500 purchase, that just went up last week. And 800 bonus pts. for just joining, not buying extra points.

 

[Big Matt]

I got every single trade right on line without an ongoing request. I had to call and beg for the one with the studio, but I got it. Even though Easter week is busy, there are a gazillion timeshares in Orlando. I have had the same luck during the summer.

Sorry to be stupid but how did you do this outside of flexchange? I always thought you could only do searches seeing the same value as the deposit you are searching with and that this applied for requests as well.

 

[hotcoffee]

Just went to a presentation at MGC we were told 9.20 with minimum 1500 purchase, that just went up last week. And 800 bonus pts. for just joining, not buying extra points.

The problem here is that we keep hearing different numbers from people attending the resort presentations. If anyone is truly interested in knowing the exact numbers, my suggestion would be to call the points specialists in the Salt Lake City office rather than dealing with these salespeople at the resorts. They seem keep quoting different numbers and saying stuff that is inaccurate.

The only reason I can see for attending these resort presentations is to get the reward points (or the $100). If it were me, and I attended one of those presenations and were really tempted to buy into the program, I would not do it there. I would then call Marriott on the 1-800-540-0255 number and ask to speak to a points specialist. Then, I would pose my questions.

 

[Venter]

Chat online.

The problem here is that we keep hearing different numbers from people attending the resort presentations. If anyone is truly interested in knowing the exact numbers, my suggestion would be to call the points specialists in the Salt Lake City office rather than dealing with these salespeople at the resorts. They seem keep quoting different numbers and saying stuff that is inaccurate.

The only reason I can see for attending these resort presentations is to get the reward points (or the $100). If it were me, and I attended one of those presenations and were really tempted to buy into the program, I would not do it there. I would then call Marriott on the 1-800-540-0255 number and ask to speak to a points specialist. Then, I would pose my questions.

After another chat to somebody online I decided I will not enroll at the moment even though I was leaning to doing it. Having a European Marriott and one USA Marriott just does not equate to any cost savings and it will probably take me ages to get my upfront fees back as I will not be able to use the 800 plus points next year. Both are developer so my upfront outlay will not even be that much.

Anyway, regarding mixed numbers - The person I spoke to said less than 10% so far has enrolled(She used the word 'members' instead of 'weeks') and that their projection is that it will never go above 50%. This is after I noted my concerns about Marriott saying nothing will change if you stay the way you are but that their is a lot of scaremongering out their by the salesman that II inventory will dry up. I must say I believe these numbers more looking at the latest report posted elsewhere on TUG.

Also of interest is that she said the enrolled week will not have to pay extra to exchange to a European Marriott. This is the first time I have heard of this as my understanding from the documents are that II will treat exchanges to European Marriotts as external exchanges and that there will still be a fee involved. Maybe this is just if you exchange with points. Maybe somebody else has something to add about these fees.

For the time being I will sit on the fence a little longer.

 

[Herb33]

Just went to a presentation at MGC we were told 9.20 with minimum 1500 purchase, that just went up last week. And 800 bonus pts. for just joining, not buying extra points.

Re the 800 points, this statement is supported by the MVC website ...

Enroll Your Weeks

...

Special Bonus Enrollment Offer!

When you enroll in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, you'll receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints! These added bonus points are good for two to five additional nights at any Marriott Vacation Club resort, depending on the resort, room type and season. Be sure to use your Vacation Club PlusPoints before they expire.

...

For a limited time, receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints when you enroll!

However, it took nearly 4 months and the intervention of a senior executive at MVCI HQ to get the 800 points credited to my account --- even though I signed an enrollment agreement on 6/25 that clearly and explicitly awards me these points.

The Sales Manager (John Ryan) at the resort where I signed this agreement (Oceana Palms) tried to deny my entitlement to these points. Amazingly, he tried to justify his position by referring to the MVC website!

These people are not merely duplicitous ....

... they're stupid.

(ON EDIT: Given the amount of time & bandwidth I've expended in exposing my own stupidity, I feel well qualified to render that last judgment.)

 

[JudyS]

...

Help me to formulate my argument to convince my husband to rescind!!!!!

Is there something your husband has been wanting to buy, in the $500 - $1000 range? Tell him you'll buy it for him if he signs the rescission papers!

Right now, you are in for the cost of your resale Marriott, plus the annual fees on your Marriott, plus the $9200, plus the extra $400 a year in MFs (which will go up each year.) That's more than what it would cost to rent any Orlando Marriott you want each year for Spring Break. Plus, suppose your kids get sick of Disney? Or the school calendar changes? This is a huge investment for something you may not want year after year, and that you could just rent more cheaply instead.

 

[hotcoffee]

. . . that II inventory will dry up. . . .

I originally was of the opinion that Marriott weeks in the II inventory would actually increase slightly under the DC program as DC waitlist exchanges began to dip into II and some of those Trust weeks used to make trades. Now, I am leaning more-and-more toward the view that there will be a noticeable decrease in Marriott weeks in II. I think Marriott will be reluctant to deposit unused weeks into II until they are sure that no Trust owners and no one in their own exchange program will want them. I think that will result in fewer unsold Marriott weeks going into II. Moreover, even after getting past Marriott's own exchange program unused, weeks might still not necessarily get deposited into II. Marriott might want to rent some of them or use some of them for get-away promotions. Add to that the number of enrolled members who elect points from year-to-year, and the net result is less Marriott inventory reaching II.

I doubt, however, that there will be a noticeable difference in the weeks actually deposited by Marriott owners. Those desiring to exchange into non-Trust resorts (especially soldout resorts) should not see much difference (except maybe due to some extra competition caused by less unsold weeks getting deposited). I think it will be interesting to see the longterm effects of Ko Olina and MOC unsold weeks both going into the Trust rather than being bulk deposited into II. That might really hurt people wanting to exchange into those resorts during the peak seasons.

 

[hotcoffee]

Re the 800 points, this statement is supported by the . . .

I've said a number of times that I thought the program would be tweaked over time. Although small, perhaps this is one of the first of such tweaks.

At some time in future, I would not be too surprised to see them change their policy on resales in some fashion in an attempt to capture (or recapture) some of the weeks that have been excluded due to their being bought and/or sold since June 20.

 

[pwrshift]

I would rescind. For the price of the points you could buy 3-4 Platinum weeks on eBay these days...an unbelievable opportunity to become a multiple week owner and may never need to trade again.

Brian