"Hello HOTELS" Speculation Thread [MERGED]

[dioxide45]

It will need to be a much easier and seamless process that can be done 100% online in order to get any significant use by owners.

 

[SueDonJ]

I really hate that whenever Marriott offers a new usage for Abound Points (and historically, for Bonvoy Points,) the first reaction of some is that "savvy" owners won't find value in it. I'm a "savvy" owner yet I still see value even when the economics aren't great. For me, my timeshares have always spurred me to travel that I might not consider if I didn't own them, and my primary concern is whether or not my timeshares will get me where I want to go. Right now, at this stage of our travel wants, whatever integration Marriott offers between the hotel and timeshare sides of the house is a welcome addition.

I don't fault the people who look first at the economics; I just wish they'd not judge me negatively, i.e. not "savvy", for thinking differently.

 

[emeryjre]

The implementation has probably taken longer than anticipated because of IT and software requirements needed for the process

We all know how time consuming the merger process and software implementation has been

 

[jp10558]

So is this going to be different than HGVCs conversion of points to HHonors points? If it is more than that, I wonder why - seems like just transferring the points at an exchange rate would have been much simpler to do.

 

[DanCali]

I really hate that whenever Marriott offers a new usage for Abound Points (and historically, for Bonvoy Points,) the first reaction of some is that "savvy" owners won't find value in it. I'm a "savvy" owner yet I still see value even when the economics aren't great. For me, my timeshares have always spurred me to travel that I might not consider if I didn't own them, and my primary concern is whether or not my timeshares will get me where I want to go. Right now, at this stage of our travel wants, whatever integration Marriott offers between the hotel and timeshare sides of the house is a welcome addition.

I don't fault the people who look first at the economics; I just wish they'd not judge me negatively, i.e. not "savvy", for thinking differently.

Since I made the "savvy" comment I feel the need to respond....

Direct booking of hotels is a welcome addition, but that option was just a 2-step process that was there already. With Abound access, you could elect Bonvoy points and then book hotels - and how often do we elect or recommend that option? Some legacy Vistana/Starwood weeks actually have decent Bonvoy conversion rates but that's only because Starwood was more generous than Marriott and MVC honored that 3:1 Starpoint/Bonvoy conversion. The MVC weeks unequivocally have terrible Bonvoy conversion rates that you'd maybe like to use only if there was another global pandemic. A 1-step hotel booking process is indeed simpler. But will it be better value? Or maybe worse, just because it's more convenient...

Take the case of resort credits ($110 for 325 points) - that may make more sense if one has expiring or holding account points. But, even if you've done it and know the value, can you really say that getting $0.34/pt is a "good use" of those points? And that it should be used repeatedly? The most "cost effective" week I have is at $0.37/pt so even on that week I'd be underwater. Someone who owns the points product and pays $0.81/pt would feel a lot worse about that exchange rate...

More generally I would expect that any usage option they offer should at least cover the annual maintenance fees on points, or at least get very close to that. How can you ask someone to pay $40K+ and then give them a bunch of usage options that don't even cover half of the ongoing maintenance of that product?

Here's a sample from a Disney Vacation Club cruise usage option with Disney Cruise Line. The point value is about $8.5/pt. The DVC annual dues of most resorts are $8-$9 (my "blended" dues are $8.20/pt) so that's kind of a break even usage option. Certainly not the $18-$20 owners can easily rent points at, but at least you don't feel you're losing out. What's the Marriott conversion rate for cruises? $0.45? $0.50 at best (just a guess - someone please correct me if I am wrong)? How can they honestly pitch us buying overpriced points at $17/pt with MFs of $0.80+ and then offer these options as viable and valuable? I'd love to see the "break even" calculation on that...

 

[davidvel]

I really hate that whenever Marriott offers a new usage for Abound Points (and historically, for Bonvoy Points,) the first reaction of some is that "savvy" owners won't find value in it. I'm a "savvy" owner yet I still see value even when the economics aren't great. For me, my timeshares have always spurred me to travel that I might not consider if I didn't own them, and my primary concern is whether or not my timeshares will get me where I want to go. Right now, at this stage of our travel wants, whatever integration Marriott offers between the hotel and timeshare sides of the house is a welcome addition.

I don't fault the people who look first at the economics; I just wish they'd not judge me negatively, i.e. not "savvy", for thinking differently.

Well when we see the conversion rate we can all decide if a savvy person would avail themselves of the option. I mean I guess if you really understand all the surrounding/underlying facts, you are saavy (an informed decisionmaker), even if you decide an option that most think is not a great choice.

While you may be a saavy person that still makes that decision, I agree that most people who really understand all the surrounding/underlying facts, would not make that decision. Also, most people (not all) that do make that decision are not saavy.

 

[JIMinNC]

Since I made the "savvy" comment I feel the need to respond....

Direct booking of hotels is a welcome addition, but that option was just a 2-step process that was there already. With Abound access, you could elect Bonvoy points and then book hotels - and how often do we elect or recommend that option? Some legacy Vistana/Starwood weeks actually have decent Bonvoy conversion rates but that's only because Starwood was more generous than Marriott and MVC honored that 3:1 Starpoint/Bonvoy conversion. The MVC weeks unequivocally have terrible Bonvoy conversion rates that you'd maybe like to use only if there was another global pandemic. A 1-step hotel booking process is indeed simpler. But will it be better value? Or maybe worse, just because it's more convenient...

Take the case of resort credits ($110 for 325 points) - that may make more sense if one has expiring or holding account points. But, even if you've done it and know the value, can you really say that getting $0.34/pt is a "good use" of those points? And that it should be used repeatedly? The most "cost effective" week I have is at $0.37/pt so even on that week I'd be underwater. Someone who owns the points product and pays $0.81/pt would feel a lot worse about that exchange rate...

More generally I would expect that any usage option they offer should at least cover the annual maintenance fees on points, or at least get very close to that. How can you ask someone to pay $40K+ and then give them a bunch of usage options that don't even cover half of the ongoing maintenance of that product?

Here's a sample from a Disney Vacation Club cruise usage option with Disney Cruise Line. The point value is about $8.5/pt. The DVC annual dues of most resorts are $8-$9 (my "blended" dues are $8.20/pt) so that's kind of a break even usage option. Certainly not the $18-$20 owners can easily rent points at, but at least you don't feel you're losing out. What's the Marriott conversion rate for cruises? $0.45? $0.50 at best (just a guess - someone please correct me if I am wrong)? How can they honestly pitch us buying overpriced points at $17/pt with MFs of $0.80+ and then offer these options as viable and valuable? I'd love to see the "break even" calculation on that...

I don't think @SueDonJ was trying to argue that these alternative usage options were necessarily good economic values when looked at in isolation. I think her point was not every "savvy" decision has to focus primarily on the standalone economic analysis. Sometimes it may make sense to use a sunk cost asset like a timeshare as opposed to spending "new money". If your priority is to go to a hotel in London instead of using your ownership at a timeshare location you've been to before or aren't thrilled about this year, using your paid for timeshare ownership to book that hotel instead of spending incremental cash could, in fact, be a savvy decision if done by an informed, knowledgeable owner. Not every decision needs to be based solely on standalone economics/price.

 

[jellen613]

I really hate that whenever Marriott offers a new usage for Abound Points (and historically, for Bonvoy Points,) the first reaction of some is that "savvy" owners won't find value in it. I'm a "savvy" owner yet I still see value even when the economics aren't great. For me, my timeshares have always spurred me to travel that I might not consider if I didn't own them, and my primary concern is whether or not my timeshares will get me where I want to go. Right now, at this stage of our travel wants, whatever integration Marriott offers between the hotel and timeshare sides of the house is a welcome addition.

I don't fault the people who look first at the economics; I just wish they'd not judge me negatively, i.e. not "savvy", for thinking differently.

I definitely don't judge. I have booked hotels with MVC points when I have had points to use, for sure. And I was looking for the chart one of the frequent tug posters put up that showed at certain properties, like the Custom House and the San Francisco properties where using MVC points is cheaper than the cash rate.
I was looking at some of the conversions for a place in Sonoma Valley where with MVC points the "cash" value of the points required was $1375 a night, while booking with cash directly was in the $550. So not sure I would want to pay over double, although if I was only staying 1-2 nights and had the points to use, I may take that deal. There are also times when I stay off season at an MVC for 150 points/night (approx $122), and the cash rate is $200-250. So enough of those off season nights may balance out the high season nights.

 

[ljmiii]

Direct booking of hotels is a welcome addition, but that option was just a 2-step process that was there already. With Abound access, you could elect Bonvoy points and then book hotels - and how often do we elect or recommend that option?

While I agree with the drift of what you wrote I think that allowing dynamic trading of Abound Points for Bonvoy Points would interest many people. Currently owners who have points about to expire face the choice between using them on a bunch of $0.30-$0.40 cents a point options or rolling the dice on 'depositing' into II to trade into non-MVC/Vistana resorts.

What I don't understand (and as @jp10558 sort of asked) is why MVW and Marriott Int'l are making this more complicated then it has to be. HGVC owners can trade for HHonors points when they make a reservation (albeit at 1:13 instead of 1:16). No obvious reason not to do the same with Abound and Bonvoy Points.

 

[kozykritter]

I think the point here is that each owner needs to go through their own analysis based on their own needs, thoughts, ideas, evaluations, circumstances, etc in determining how to use any of their points, which inventory to book in which system, and so forth. When I see someone that's making a blanket statement I just assume that's their opinion for their life and I try not to take it personally when I hold a different one. They're not making travel decisions for me, I am. So in the end their opinion is their opinion and it's not about me, it's about them and their perspective on their own situation. Me, I'm going to continue to gather information from different sources including this one and make decisions that fit my life. Simple.

 

[jp10558]

I think the point here is that each owner needs to go through their own analysis based on their own needs, thoughts, ideas, evaluations, circumstances, etc in determining how to use any of their points, which inventory to book in which system, and so forth. When I see someone that's making a blanket statement I just assume that's their opinion for their life and I try not to take it personally when I hold a different one. They're not making travel decisions for me, I am. So in the end their opinion is their opinion and it's not about me, it's about them and their perspective on their own situation. Me, I'm going to continue together information from different sources including this one and make decisions that fit my life. Simple.

Fair enough. I think people generally on TUG seem to mean not that you HAVE to do something, just that some of these things only financially make sense as a last resort, or at least certainly aren't a good way to use the system as a first choice.

I.e., for me if I have HGVC points that are going to expire and there's nothing else I could figure to do with them, then converting to HHonors points would make sense vs just getting 0 from them. However, I also tend to think that ought to come behind another less desirable use, converting to RCI and trying to use them in the next year or so.

Which is different in my mind from "should you save points to the next use year" or "book a 'use it up' short trip you otherwise wouldn't go on" - that's entirely a personal preference, and I don't think I would say one is a worse idea than the other. Maybe some would.

 

[rthib]

What I don't understand (and as @jp10558 sort of asked) is why MVW and Marriott Int'l are making this more complicated then it has to be. HGVC owners can trade for HHonors points when they make a reservation (albeit at 1:13 instead of 1:16). No obvious reason not to do the same with Abound and Bonvoy Points.

WIth Abound points you can already convert to Bonvoy points at a 1:40 ratio.
This is giving another option that hopefully will have a better ratio for a slightly more restricted and complicated process.

 

[dioxide45]

I wonder if this will be a cash+points type of option. Perhaps a service fee plus points to book hotels? Perhaps it could also be restricted to trust points?

 

[ljmiii]

WIth Abound points you can already convert to Bonvoy points at a 1:40 ratio.
This is giving another option that hopefully will have a better ratio for a slightly more restricted and complicated process.

Only if you know you want to do so way in advance...and only a limited number of them.

"Club Points from Trust ownership may be traded for Marriott Bonvoy® Points as early as 25 months prior to the start of the Use Year. The deadline for trading Club Points depends on your benefit level:

Owner and Select: up to 50% no later than 6 months prior to the end of the current Use Year
Executive and Presidential: up to 65% no later than 4 months prior to the end of the current Use Year
Chairman's Club: up to 75% no later than 2 months prior to the end of the current Use Year"

 

[SueDonJ]

Was there something in the earnings call that might lead us to think that the option to use Club Points throughout the hotels portfolio will only be available to owners of Trust Points? Because when we're talking about Exchange Points from enrolled Weeks, we Exchange Members can choose to elect Club Points ~OR~ elect Bonvoy Points. We can't exchange Abound Points from enrolled Weeks for Bonvoy Points no matter what the values are, so if the process requires conversions to Bonvoy Points then we're out.

My ideal hotels option (fully realizing that it won't be "economically" ideal, because it's always true that the further you get from simple usage the less return we get) would be direct bookings online via either marriott.com or our owners' accounts, without any need to do conversions or math, and open to Abound Trust and Exchange members alike. Lots of "ifs" involved here so I'll just keep hoping for the best.

 

[dioxide45]

Was there something in the earnings call that might lead us to think that the option to use Club Points throughout the hotels portfolio will only be available to owners of Trust Points?

No, not at all. It was a single sentence in the earnings call. Just speculation on my part.

 

[davidvel]

Abound points are very often not a good deal to book timeshares, so I presume it will be even worse for hotels.

 

[JIMinNC]

Was there something in the earnings call that might lead us to think that the option to use Club Points throughout the hotels portfolio will only be available to owners of Trust Points?

Here is the exact wording of the statement from CEO John Geller, taken from the earnings call transcript:

"And this summer, we plan to launch the ability for our Marriott branded owners to seamlessly book directly into nearly any of Marriott's 9,000-plus hotels around the world using their vacation ownership points."

 

[DanCali]

Here is the exact wording of the statement from CEO John Geller, taken from the earnings call transcript:

"And this summer, we plan to launch the ability for our Marriott branded owners to seamlessly book directly into nearly any of Marriott's 9,000-plus hotels around the world using their vacation ownership points."

To me that reads as "Not Hyatt Vacation Club".

I can't think of any example where Trust points can participate in some usage options and elected points cannot. I doubt that will be the case here.

 

[davidvel]

Here is the exact wording of the statement from CEO John Geller, taken from the earnings call transcript:

"And this summer, we plan to launch the ability for our Marriott branded owners to seamlessly book directly into nearly any of Marriott's 9,000-plus hotels around the world using their vacation ownership points."

"Marriott." "Seamlessly."

 

[dioxide45]

Marketing material is showing up at the resorts.

 

[LJT]

I don't think @SueDonJ was trying to argue that these alternative usage options were necessarily good economic values when looked at in isolation. I think her point was not every "savvy" decision has to focus primarily on the standalone economic analysis. Sometimes it may make sense to use a sunk cost asset like a timeshare as opposed to spending "new money". If your priority is to go to a hotel in London instead of using your ownership at a timeshare location you've been to before or aren't thrilled about this year, using your paid for timeshare ownership to book that hotel instead of spending incremental cash could, in fact, be a savvy decision if done by an informed, knowledgeable owner. Not every decision needs to be based solely on standalone economics/price.

exactly!

 

[LJT]

We are at Crystal Shores now and the concierge who tried to get us to book the owner’s update said this location is one of the first to roll out the new program and we could learn all about it. We don’t want to waste time in the presentation but it looks like the information will be available soon for all of us to analyze, scrutinize, and discuss.

 

[bizaro86]

I don't think @SueDonJ was trying to argue that these alternative usage options were necessarily good economic values when looked at in isolation. I think her point was not every "savvy" decision has to focus primarily on the standalone economic analysis. Sometimes it may make sense to use a sunk cost asset like a timeshare as opposed to spending "new money". If your priority is to go to a hotel in London instead of using your ownership at a timeshare location you've been to before or aren't thrilled about this year, using your paid for timeshare ownership to book that hotel instead of spending incremental cash could, in fact, be a savvy decision if done by an informed, knowledgeable owner. Not every decision needs to be based solely on standalone economics/price.

For sure. Once you've paid for the annual allotment it's a sunk cost and you should use them however you personally get the most value.

However, if you're using points with any regularity for options that return less than the MF, then it's probably time to evaluate whether owning that TS makes sense. Maybe it's time to sell.

 

[davidvel]

For sure. Once you've paid for the annual allotment it's a sunk cost and you should use them however you personally get the most value.

However, if you're using points with any regularity for options that return less than the MF, then it's probably time to evaluate whether owning that TS makes sense. Maybe it's time to sell.

To the point, it certainly will not be a reason to pay $17 or $6 a point.