Hawaii Superferry faces waves in court

[BocaBum99]

uhmmmm ...

Other than that example ...

-David

Okay, how about this one?

You don't like 1 right in the bill of rights, so you throw out the whole constitution.

 

[Icarus]

Okay, how about this one?

You don't like 1 right in the bill of rights, so you throw out the whole constitution.

I always thought that the right to bare arms had to do with sleeveless clothing.


All I meant is that I thought your post was pretty good, except for that example. It's ok if we disagree about that without accusing each other of being pinko commie ***tards, or gun monging **ores isn't it?

I probably shouldn't have even posted a reply to it with the rules that TUG has about this stuff. So let's not even go there.

I'm deleting my previous reply.

-David

 

[CaliDave]

How about 1 person killed in the ocean by a shark? Does that mean we shut down the oceans from swimmers? Or, we kill off all the sharks?

How about 1 person killed by a car? Does that mean we stop all production of cars?

How about 1 person killed by a gun. Does that mean we stop offering guns?

How about 1 person dies on a roller coaster ride? Does that mean we stop all roller coasters?

A person died in a timeshare once. Maybe all timesharing should be shut down?

Boca ,

These aren't very good arguments. You are arguing with people that typically value an animal over a person. So the answer would be no.. unless a bird got hit by the rollercoaster.

And why is a whale more valued than a dog? Do you know how many dogs get run over by cars each year?
It would help if we could get a points system, similar to RCI points. So we know the value of each type of animal before making transportation and innovation decisions.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Boca ,

These aren't very good arguments. You are arguing with people that typically value an animal over a person. So the answer would be no.. unless a bird got hit by the rollercoaster.

And why is a whale more valued than a dog? Do you know how many dogs get run over by cars each year?
It would help if we could get a points system, similar to RCI points. So we know the value of each type of animal before making transportation and innovation decisions.

I don't think that would work at all. People who loved certain animals would manipulate the system to get more points assigned to their favorite animals, and the whole system would go awry.

No - far better to set up a private entity that would determine what value to assign to animals privately. Then, each time someone killed an animal that group would decide what the animal was worth and how much penance needs to get paid.

Religious reference removed.

 

[ouaifer]

Keep to the topic, please! Some folks are actually interested in the facts of what is going on. Take your personal fights elsewhere.


"KAUAI Breaking News

Kaua‘i TRO denied



By The Garden Island

Fifth Circuit Judge Randal Valenciano today denied a petition for a temporary restraining order to bar Hawaii Superferry service to Nawiliwili Harbor.

The decision set a hearing at 9 a.m. Sept. 17 for the petitioner’s motion for a preliminary injunction to prohibit the Superferry from operating until the state conducts an environmental assessment.

Attorneys Dan Hempey and Greg Meyers — representing 1,000 Friends of Kaua‘i, an environmental group — filed for the restraining order Tuesday to try to prevent the “Alakai” from servicing Kaua‘i until the more extensive preliminary injunction hearing. "

More here.

 

[Kauai Kid]

Super Ferry Speed

During sea trials the ship top speed managed just a little over 40 knots ie 46 mph not 60 mph as I previously stated.

I believe the Humpback whale is still endangered and am still concerned about their safety from a ship the size of a football field going 40 knots--shouldn't we all be??

The Maui politicians probably would support a bill for no more time shares on "their" island. More tax $

Sterling

 

[Icarus]

Did you watch the special on the National Geographic Channel?

It runs on what are essentially water jets, with movable nozzles for steering. 2 jets on each side of the catamaran. The superferry can make an instant 30 degree turn at full speed and can rotate in place when it needs to turn around. Steering is controlled by a simple small joystick.

There will be whale watchers on board on the bridge.

It also has movable underwater "wings" which provide stability during rough seas and any sudden turns.

I'm sure if forward looking sonar were available, they would put it on the ferry also.

They also plan on modifying the route during whale season.

Since the ferry is a catamaran, it has a very small profile on the water.

-David

 

[taffy19]

This sounds very promising as I wouldn't like to see any whales hurt either but a ferry is a good alternative rather than flying only. The more competition there is in ways of traveling from one island to the other, the better it is for all of us to travel more cheaply.

I heard or read somewhere that it is still expensive to take your car on the ferry unless you are staying a while on the other island as then it makes perfect sense for the local people or the tourist.

 

[Kauai Kid]

I watched the special on NGS. Still thinking if a 5 knot cruise ship in Glacier Bay could run over & kill a humpback & her calf there is good reason for concern with a cat going 40 knots in prime whale habitat.

I imagine the passengers who were not seated would be thrown about if a sharp turn were required at 40 knots.

Hopefully the design and lookouts would minimize the danger to the whales & people.

Sterling

 

[Timeshare Von]

Did you watch the special on the National Geographic Channel?

It runs on what are essentially water jets, with movable nozzles for steering. 2 jets on each side of the catamaran. The superferry can make an instant 30 degree turn at full speed and can rotate in place when it needs to turn around. Steering is controlled by a simple small joystick.

There will be whale watchers on board on the bridge.

It also has movable underwater "wings" which provide stability during rough seas and any sudden turns.

I'm sure if forward looking sonar were available, they would put it on the ferry also.

They also plan on modifying the route during whale season.

Since the ferry is a catamaran, it has a very small profile on the water.

-David

Yes, that was on this past week and was very informative. When I mentioned to my hubby this injunction, he just rolled his eyes.

One of the things they had to prove they were capable of doing was avoiding a humpback in open waters, essentially turning that big ferry on a dime (actually 30 degrees), just as David mentioned in his post.

I believe in protecting the environment and earth's animals, but sometimes these environmentalists, naturalists and PETA people just go too far.

Personally, I just don't see the benefit of riding the ferry given the price and the length of the trip between islands.

 

[Icarus]

I watched the special on NGS. Still thinking if a 5 knot cruise ship in Glacier Bay could run over & kill a humpback & her calf there is good reason for concern with a cat going 40 knots in prime whale habitat.

I imagine the passengers who were not seated would be thrown about if a sharp turn were required at 40 knots.

Hopefully the design and lookouts would minimize the danger to the whales & people.

Sterling

A cruise ship has a huge profile on the water and can't make fast course corrections.

The stabilizers and the design of the cat allow it to make sharp turns like that without throwing passengers around, plus it has a really small profile on the water.

That doesn't mean that accidents won't happen, but the design of the ship and the operating procedures should help prevent them.

-David

 

[ouaifer]

There is a live streaming video right now from the court room about this. It will also be archived for future watching.

 

[Hawaiibarb]

Concern for whales

I'm concerned about the whales, too, but the article in the paper yesterday said that the precautions the Superferry will take are better than most others used in the whale channels. Probaly the protesters will never be satisfied.

It's true that if you are going over just for a quick trip you could probably do it cheaper by flying. But for a timeshare you are usually there for at least a week, and taking my own care definitely will save me money. Plus I won't miss the hassle and waiting at the airport. All told, the time spent (I'm guessing) may be about the same when you factor in the wait for baggage, wait for your rental car, etc. Anyway, I have three weeks reserved for 2008, and the Superferry better be running! I'm counting on it!

Barb

 

[Icarus]

Lingle: Hawaii Superferry to resume Kauai service

Gov. Linda Lingle said this afternoon that federal, state and local authorities have cleared the Hawaii Superferry to resume ferry service to Nawiliwili Harbor on Kaua'i on Sept. 26.

...

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Sep/12/br/br1263478509.html

Let's see if this sticks .. There's a court hearing on Sept 17 on Kauai where the opposition is trying to get an injunction to stop it from going to Kauai until the EA/EIS is done.

Meanwhile, on Maui ...

Hawaii Superferry riders took Maui rocks

State conservation officers are investigating three O'ahu men who came to Maui on the Hawaii Superferry allegedly to load their three pickup trucks with river rocks and return to O'ahu.

They might have been successful except for a court order that suspended ferry service Aug. 27, stranding them on Maui.

The three pickup trucks were found parked at the Hawaii Superferry pier at Kahului Harbor filled with more than 900 large rocks, said Randy Awo, Maui branch chief for the state Department of Land and Natural Resources' Division of Conservation and Resource Enforcement.

...

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070912/NEWS01/709120411

This one is just sad .. it's exactly what the opposition on Kauai are claiming will happen to their island. The fact that they got caught (if it's true) is good.


-David

 

[Courts]

Lingle: Hawaii Superferry to resume Kauai service

Gov. Linda Lingle said this afternoon that federal, state and local authorities have cleared the Hawaii Superferry to resume ferry service to Nawiliwili Harbor on Kaua'i on Sept. 26.

...

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Sep/12/br/br1263478509.html

Let's see if this sticks .. There's a court hearing on Sept 17 on Kauai where the opposition is trying to get an injunction to stop it from going to Kauai until the EA/EIS is done.

How many strikes do they get?
from March 29, 2007
"Neighbor Island senators who wanted an environmental impact statement on the Superferry were disappointed, along with environmentalists who have unsuccessfully tried to force a review through the courts." http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Mar/29/ln/FP703290349.html

Meanwhile, on Maui ...

Hawaii Superferry riders took Maui rocks

State conservation officers are investigating three O'ahu men who came to Maui on the Hawaii Superferry allegedly to load their three pickup trucks with river rocks and return to O'ahu.

They might have been successful except for a court order that suspended ferry service Aug. 27, stranding them on Maui.

The three pickup trucks were found parked at the Hawaii Superferry pier at Kahului Harbor filled with more than 900 large rocks, said Randy Awo, Maui branch chief for the state Department of Land and Natural Resources' Division of Conservation and Resource Enforcement.

...

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070912/NEWS01/709120411

This one is just sad .. it's exactly what the opposition on Kauai are claiming will happen to their island. The fact that they got caught (if it's true) is good.


-David

I agree. While visiting Maui, I was impressed with how much has been preserved and saddened by how much was destroyed through the years.
I get emotional while listening to Israel Kamakawiwo'ole's recordings.

.

 

[Icarus]

How many strikes do they get?
from March 29, 2007
"Neighbor Island senators who wanted an environmental impact statement on the Superferry were disappointed, along with environmentalists who have unsuccessfully tried to force a review through the courts." http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Mar/29/ln/FP703290349.html

But, if you read from the beginning of the thread, the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that the state should have conducted an EA/EIS for the harbor improvements, and the lower courts ruling dismissing that lawsuit was in error.

The bill that was killed (that story was from March 07) was an attempt by some members of the legislature to overrule the lower courts decision.

-David

 

[Courts]

But, if you read from the beginning of the thread, the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that the state should have conducted an EA/EIS for the harbor improvements, and the lower courts ruling dismissing that lawsuit was in error.

The bill that was killed (that story was from March 07) was an attempt by some members of the legislature to overrule the lower courts decision.

-David

So when the state gave the go ahead for harbor improvements did they circumvent the laws or is the Hawaii Supreme Court making up their own law?

It is not clear to me.

.

 

[Icarus]

So when the state gave the go ahead for harbor improvements did they circumvent the laws or is the Hawaii Supreme Court making up their own law?

It is not clear to me.

.

ok, just so it's clear, you're asking for an opinion ... at the end of the day, the courts are going to decide the SFs fate for now. So here's my opinion with some facts thrown in for good measure ...

The way I read it, the state DOT should have done an EA/EIS for the harbor improvements since the project cost was $40,000,000 and was funded with public funds. Any project that has a material primary or secondary environmental impact is required to go through the EA and possibly the longer EIS process in Hawaii. If you read all the articles on the SF in recent weeks, there's one that describes HI's environmental law and when the EA/EIS process is required, and when I read that article, it was fairly clear that this project didn't meet the waiver conditions.

When the environmental groups filed lawsuits trying to overturn the DOTs decision, their lawsuit was dismissed, basically on a technicality. The recent HI Supreme Court decision overturned that dismissal and went further than that by agreeing that the DOT should have conducted an EA/EIS for the harbor improvements. If you're really interested in reading that opinion, it's published somewhere on the internet. You should be able to find it.

The DOT continues to state that the harbor improvements were minor improvements for an existing mode of transportation, but the parts of the law that were quoted in some of the articles made it pretty clear to me at least (as a non-lawyer) that they probably should have done an EA/EIS. It's hard to imagine that even the traffic coming off the ferry doesn't have some secondary impact to the outer islands environment.

The problem for them was that the $140,000,000 Superferry Federal Maritime loan guarantee used to build the ferries required that there be no EA/EIS in order to secure the loan guarantee. The loan guarantee guarantees that the SF will pay back their loans.

So, on the one hand, you have the federal agency providing the loan guarantee to build the ships writing in a clause (attempting to protect their loan guarantee) that there be no EA/EIS requirements, and on the other hand, you have the State DOT trying to provide a new mode of transportation to the islands, using public money to build harbor improvements, including floating ramps for the SF, and trying to do that in a way that circumvents state law.

The EA process can take up to 8 months. The DOT is trying to bypass the bidding process to secure a consulting contract to do the EA. If there's any material impact, the longer EIS process can then take at least 1 - 3 years, but with the way this thing is being fought, I would expect court cases to be filed at every step of the way no matter how much reasonable mitigation the State and the SF agree to.

The current court battles going on this week on Maui and Kauai will determine if the SF can operate during the EA/EIS process. Whichever way the court rules, I'm sure it will be appealed by the losing side.

-David

 

[Dollie]

Just returned from Kaua`i

Just a FYI. We spoke with a native Hawaiian who was involved in the protest. Here are two points that she made:

- They wanted a peaceful demonstration and got very upset when non-native Hawaiians started to get out-of-hand using foul language, etc. She said this was not the "aloha way" and actually left the demonstration.

- Their biggest problem is with the cars. If the ferry didn't have cars, things would be much better. They are afraid of Kaua`i being invaded by some of the problems of the other islands (animals like the mongoose; plants that Kaua`i doesn't presently have problems with; etc), things that could be transported by and in the cars that can't be transported when you fly.

 

[Courts]

Thanks Dave for a great explanation.

Thank you Dollie for providing a local perspective.


I have visited Hawaii (Maui) only once, but it does get into your blood. I try to keep up with some news now and then.

.

 

[Icarus]

Just a FYI. We spoke with a native Hawaiian who was involved in the protest. Here are two points that she made:

- They wanted a peaceful demonstration and got very upset when non-native Hawaiians started to get out-of-hand using foul language, etc. She said this was not the "aloha way" and actually left the demonstration.

It's amazing how polarizing the issue is to the islands. Everything is stereotyped with each group blaming the other group. I don't believe that person, sorry. There were natives and non-natives involved. I watched raw footage of the incident from one of the tv stations that they had on their web site.

-David

 

[spicer]

We got to witness the protest while staying at the Marriott Kauai Beach Club

We spoke to a local lady that has lived on Kauai all of her life. She said the main reason they are protesting the ferry, is because Kauai has always been isolated in the past. The tourists come in and then leave. Now with cars, the locals from other islands can come and make the traffic worse, take the fish from their streams (which has the best fish according to her), and attract bums to come and live on the beach. She mentioned she's also worried about safety, and that it has always been extremely safe for children on the island as the local's all know each other. One more thing she's worried about is having more people live on Kauai, which would drive the already expensive rent even higher. There seems to be a lot more to it, besides just the enviromental reasons. -Carol

 

[Liz Wolf-Spada]

Maybe because we have had to visit either in summer or Easter week, I find the traffic on Kauai already horrible, so bringing in more cars would be horrid, but then would it really add cars or just make more of them local from other islands instead of rental cars from Lihue?

Kauai is beautiful, but we prefer the island of Hawaii because it is still open and rural in large areas.

As Hawaii has that agricultural inspection when flying in and even between islands, I do wonder how that will be covered for the ferry and especially for cars on the ferry.

Liz

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Maybe because we have had to visit either in summer or Easter week, I find the traffic on Kauai already horrible, so bringing in more cars would be horrid, but then would it really add cars or just make more of them local from other islands instead of rental cars from Lihue?

Kauai is beautiful, but we prefer the island of Hawaii because it is still open and rural in large areas.

As Hawaii has that agricultural inspection when flying in and even between islands, I do wonder how that will be covered for the ferry and especially for cars on the ferry.

Liz

There's no agricultural inspection inter-island.

 

[Liz Wolf-Spada]

Steve, maybe it just seemed that way because our bags went through ag check in at Kona, then had to be rechecked in at HNL and retagged again because it was a different airline. Come to think of it, it seems like it was on leaving Hawaii airports as opposed to flying into them, which would make more sense in terms of protecting agriculture etc.
Liz