Governing documents for Trust?

[GregT]

Greg,

Access to trust inventory is my main object and where you may ultilize value of points. The language is pretty clear that initiation is the only obstacle to re-gain full access to booking window of P1, P2 and P3 upon sale of interest.

From a marketing standpoint, it does not make any sense to sell a hot potato that contains little value for next taker. $2,400 is likely about net profit of small package for developer sale and resale apparently does not hurt developer's bottomline.

I will probably find a small package of resale, too.

Thanks,

Best,

Ben

Ben,

I actually think the access to the Trust is not the potential restriction -- I think the restriction is the access to the Exchange Inventory. We will see...

Best,

Greg

 

[Fasttr]

The Trust documents do lay out the Premier Plus rights within the governing documents too, so the access rights to the Trust Inventory do mirror the access rights within the Exchange Company.

Greg....seems like I read somewhere that resale trust points will not count toward "status" (P, P+, etc) so if you are looking at Trust status only to get you the 13 month window, you might want to make absolutely sure you will have that status in just the Trust alone. Again, as mentioned before, the entanglement of Trust and Exchange is somewhat confusing in the docs.

 

[fluke]

Yes, but that initiation is waived for people that already own trust points. For me, I am in a good position since I bought trust points. For you since you only have enrolled weeks, you'll pay that $200 per interest, $2000 minimum imitation fee I order to have full access.

So once you pay that imitation fee once its likely you'll never have to pay it again.


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I always thought the initiation fee was equivalent to the education fee ($300 per person). I thought the $200 per beneficial interest was the rofr waiver fee. I could be wrong.

 

[GregT]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/62hqbyq5baanocx/fokkqWUdGx

Thanks again to Steven for the dropbox link and to Dioxide for the email of same document.

I've combed through it, and excerpted what I believe are the key sections. It is too big to attach, so if you would like my excerpt of the key sections, please send a PM.

In my opinion, the restrictions that may potentially be placed on resale Trust Points relate only to access the Exchange Inventory, and not the Trust Inventory itself.

This may not be news to other TUGgers, but I suspected more severe penalties for the resale Trust Points. My interpretation of the attached is that they are relatively clean with respect to accessing Trust Inventory itself -- which is my primary objective.

I apologize if this was already understood by most TUGgers but I was happy to read the documents for myself.

All the best,

Greg

 

[SueDonJ]

Greg, I'm in the same boat as Puck - I'd be extremely leery about purchasing anything that's not deeded as fixed with a desired result of consistent unit placement at the resorts. It's surprising that you don't feel the same way. Is it possible that in all your dealings with them lately regarding purchasing the Week before they convey it to the Trust, they've given you some reassurance that the resort personnel will always give you the placement you want?

I promise, I'm not asking so I can turn around and criticize Marriott for inconsistent customer service (as much as I do love to do that ) It's just that I'm at a loss to understand why, if you don't have such an agreement, you're considering a Trust Points purchase. You're the TUG champion of, "why buy when you can rent?!" You started the rental ball rolling!

 

[GregT]

Greg, I'm in the same boat as Puck - I'd be extremely leery about purchasing anything that's not deeded as fixed with a desired result of consistent unit placement at the resorts. It's surprising that you don't feel the same way. Is it possible that in all your dealings with them lately regarding purchasing the Week before they convey it to the Trust, they've given you some reassurance that the resort personnel will always give you the placement you want?

I promise, I'm not asking so I can turn around and criticize Marriott for inconsistent customer service (as much as I do love to do that ) It's just that I'm at a loss to understand why, if you don't have such an agreement, you're considering a Trust Points purchase. You're the TUG champion of, "why buy when you can rent?!" You started the rental ball rolling!

Sue, I understand your comments completely, and I too find it ironic that I'm considering Trust Points.

The logic (such as it is) is as follows:

1) I know the specific week that I want is in the Trust
2) I believe its going to be very difficult to purchase two contiguous 3BR weeks from existing owners
3) I definitely believe that I can secure a 3-5 day reservation in a 3BR week 26 using Trust Points
4) I do not believe that I can secure a 3-5 day reservation in a 3BR week 26 using Legacy Points (or I wouldn't be exploring this) -- I track the owners of these weeks and they rent them/use them, they do not redeem them for points
5) When I spoke to MOC's GM and also the room assignments department manager, she indicated it is in their interest to keep me in the same room (ie, still in 6206), especially if I have an early date stamp.

My opinion is that the scarce Trust Inventory weeks are being held in the Trust during months 12-13, and only released to the Exchange Inventory at Month 12 (if even then -- we have three instances of this -- mine, SMB1 and Fasttr). I just don't think the only 3BR week 26 that resides in the Trust will make it to Month 12 because of all the Trust Point owner competitors like my 15K friend.

But for me, I believe it is bookable, when one considers an atomic clock, throwaway days and Puck Trick II. This is similar to a favorite trick I have with HHV Lagoon Tower that has been successful in getting prime weeks.

Renting still makes sense for the Exchange Inventory -- but when you rent a Trust Point, it loses its preferential access to the Trust (or I would just be renting Trust Points). I ran that test last year by renting from StevenTing, and the Transferred Trust Point didn't have Trust access.

So....I may be making a mistake here, but I think this is my best near-term opportunity to build a 10-12 day reservation in the unit that I love. I would definitely rather having purchased it than be doing this.....

We will see. Interesting stuff!

Best,

Greg

 

[davidvel]

Greg,
...
The language is pretty clear that initiation is the only obstacle to re-gain full access to booking window of P1, P2 and P3 upon sale of interest.
...

This is an interesting discussion. In reading the quoted and bolded language in GregT's post above, my interpretation is that not-paying initiation only restricts reservation of non-trust interests.

I did not read it to mean there is any restriction on reserving trust interests as you state above. At the same time, I have not read all the docs...

 

[davidvel]

Understood, and an interesting question -- I plan to pay the fee to mitigate this issue (if I buy resale), but fundamentally, I would be an owner of the Trust with the right to make reservations within the Trust.

Greg-

It may make sense to NOT pay initially, and then see what rights they give you. You can be the guinea pig

You can always pay once you test it out with them.

 

[GregT]

Renting still makes sense for the Exchange Inventory -- but when you rent a Trust Point, it loses its preferential access to the Trust (or I would just be renting Trust Points). I ran that test last year by renting from StevenTing, and the Transferred Trust Point didn't have Trust access.

Steven and I are repeating the experiment - will keep you apprised.

Best,

Greg

 

[m61376]

Not to be a wet noodle here- BUT with all the recent "talk" that Marriott now considers a point a point- is it possible that the exceptions you and others have noted will disappear over the next several months as they smooth out that process, co-mingling everything into the exchange company? IF- and a big IF, I know_ that becomes true, potentially you will have spent an awful lot of money without garnering any advantage.

I forget- were you able to secure that reservation for next year? Even if not, the advantage period is gone, and you certainly have several months to play with and see how everything pans out before rushing into a purchase, since you wouldn't need the points until May of next year to make that 13 month reservation.

Even resale, you are talking about a huge expenditure, competing against potentially lots of others owners for a single unit. And if the week 27 owner decides to come early and competes with you, you could both be vying for the same room assignment. Again- it's a big financial commitment with a lot of "IFs."

Of course, it may be just that important to you and Jonelle that it is worth the money, but sometimes we tend to get caught up in what we want that we lose sight of the forest through the trees, so to speak. Just playing devil's advocate here....

 

[dioxide45]

Steven and I are repeating the experiment - will keep you apprised.

Best,

Greg

Greg, It would be very interesting to confirm if rented trust points are really only as good as legacy points. Not that it is a bad thing. Though it would mean there really isn't a premium to be paid to rent trust points over legacy points. Let us know the results of your latest experiment.

Ps. I killed the 20MB file email from my outbox that I was trying to send. It was the same one available in Steven's dropbox. It was taking a long time to send since upload speeds are far slower than download.

 

[GregT]

All,

It has been a productive afternoon, and very clarifying on this system that we participate in.

I spoke at length today with VOA's, spending about 90 minutes total between 3 different VOA's.

Key comments:

1) VOAs indicate the majority of properties/weeks today will be accessible via "Flex" points, meaning either Trust/Legacy/Hybrid points

2) There are very few weeks that they recall seeing that require exclusively Trust points

3) Those few weeks tend to be extremely prime weeks, and the opinion is that they remain bookable with Trust Points only during months 12-13, and then open to Flex points

4) I was able to book a Trust Point only week using the rented Trust Points (this is significant for me)
This was a novelty to the VOA too, who was as curious as I was if the Transferred Trust Points would work. I booked a single night reservation at Ocean Watch that was clearly designated for Trust reservations. The VOAs can tell by looking at the inventory what requires Trust Points, and what (most) require Flex points. I duplicated the experiment tonight, and was able to book the single Ocean Watch day online -- and then when checking availability , it confirmed that there had only been one unit available (and I'd booked it/broken it).

5) Maui Ocean Club appears to be a property that is primarily "Flex", and not a single week could be found that required Trust Points

6) However, they did not have a single 3BR available for reservation (they were all booked - note there are only three 3BR units from the Trust that are still in 12-13 months out window -- two week 30s and one week 32, and they were gone)

My views at this point: It is huge that I was able to rent Trust Points, and then be able to book a confirmed Trust Point Only reservation. This significantly reduces the pressure to buy Trust Points, and increases the value of Trust Point rentals. This is mitigated by the fact that only a subset of owners (Premier/Premier Plus) can benefit from this incremental value of the Trust Point rental.

The VOAs believe that -- for the most part -- a point is a point. Two out of the three were aware of rare, extremely prime weeks that would require Trust Points. One of them said -- unprompted -- "as an example, if you want July 4th in Maui, that's going to require Trust Points". I thought that was amusing.

The most disappointing thing about today (because I was happy with everything else) was that all three VOAs reported inconsistency in timing of loading inventory. As an example, its not always there 13 months out. It might be loaded 12 months 28 days out. This is disappointing, and something that I need to track for my little strategy to work.

So...that's what I learned today. Interesting stuff. Thank you to TUGgers who have presented alternative views -- all of which I have previously considered, and all of which are valid considerations. Nothing is certain with this system, and there is no clear course of action.

Best to all,

Greg

 

[mjm1]

Greg, thanks once again for the time you have devoted/invested to help everyone learn more about this system. It is indeed very interesting. I hope in the end you are able to accomplish what you are trying to do.

Mike

 

[m61376]

Greg- Thanks for the herculean research! So it seems that a point really isn't fully a point, as they've claimed, at least yet. However, as far as rental values go, Trust Points would only command a higher value for those Premiere or Premiere Plus owners who happen to want one of those rare Trust only weeks. For the vast majority of rentals, there is no advantage then to renting Trust Points, and at 12 months or less, Trust=Legacy Points. I think that's an important distinction for both sides of the rental market to keep in mind.

As for your dilemma- still seems to me that the only way to ensure a reservation is to own the week, and anything else will be a crapshoot from year to year. Were you successful in securing the reservation for 2014? If so, at least you'll find out how likely retaining the same unit will be in practice, although anything is subject to change over time. Given that, I am glad you found a much less costly avenue to possibly achieve your goal, and can potentially make good personal use of your own point rental site.

 

[GregT]

Marilyn,

Thank you - this is all advance work for 2015 reservations. As you've noted, 2014 timing has passed for the reservation windows. So this has been in anticipation of needing to accumulate Trust Points for May 2014. This gives me time to buy or rent; depending on what path I take.

The biggest downer is that I can't be assured the inventory loads right at 13 months. I need to know exactly when the inventory is there to make this work. I believe that if I can secure the reservation, room assignments has an interest in giving me 6206. I just need to get the days, and uncertainty of inventory loading introduces more competition.

And of course, things could change again. But this evolution to this point makes the most sense to me.

Thanks to all for their comments.

Best,

Greg

 

[Fasttr]

All good info Greg. Thanks for your efforts to help us all understand a little bit more the ins and outs of the system. If nothing else, this thread did get a few of us to re-read (or perhaps actually even read for the first time) the documents, which is a couple hours of my life I will never get back, but most likely well spent in refreshing my memory for a better understanding how the system is laid out, and supposed to work.

 

[dioxide45]

Greg, Did your online (Marriott.com) confirmation for the one night Ocean Watch trust reservation indicate "MVC TRUST" instead of "MVC EXCHANGE" as FT has reported on all 20 of his DC point reservations?

 

[StevenTing]

It does say MVC Trust.


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[GregT]

As Steven as indicated, the online confirmation said MVC Trust.

I did three confirmations yesterday -- the first one was me working alone looking for Trust intervals and I picked Ocean Watch because of SMB1's experience. I booked a single night in a 2BR OF, and it came in as MVC Exchange.

I called to cancel it, and thus began the first of my three conversations. The first two calls were really information gathering. During the third call (after more information gathering), I asked the VOA to look for a week at Ocean Watch that was being designated to require Trust Points. He found a 2BR OS that had just been loaded and I asked him to book a single night. He was curious if the Transferred Trust Point would work (he had been looking at this inventory of what was available, not what my membership was indicating was available).

He put me on hold and called his Trust Point Technical Supervisor (or some similar title). After about 3 minutes he came back and told me that the TPTS was 100% certain that it would work. He booked it and it worked. We spoke for a few more minutes and I had him cancel the one day reservation. When I hung up, I checked the confirmation, noted the MVC Trust, and was very happy (and forwarded it to Steven).

Last night when I got home, I replicated the experience myself using the online system to make sure it wasn't some quirk of having it handled by a VOA, but I again got a confirmation that said MVC Trust. I canceled that one this morning.

Again, in my view, this is terrific and I believe we will start to see separation in rental values for Legacy Point and Trust Points.

This little experiment reinforces the value of Premier Plus. The ability to book single days across the entire system is extremely powerful, as is the ability to now book Trust Inventory in that same time period.

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg

 

[windje2000]

Greg

Wow - some rays of sunshine on what has heretofore been a black op.

One observation - and its been a while since I read the documents - but I recall making a mental note that VAC gives itself 'broad powers' to 'manage' the exchange process/procedures.

That of course translates to subject to change. . . without notice.

Probably wouldn't affect a Trust owner seeking Trust occupancy, but certainly could affect the Legacy/Hybrid group and its access to the exchange company.

 

[Fasttr]

One observation - and its been a while since I read the documents - but I recall making a mental note that VAC gives itself 'broad powers' to 'manage' the exchange process/procedures.

Yes, pure Trust reservations seem to have fewer potential restrictions than Exchange reservations and they do seem to give themselves leeway in the docs to tweak the Exchange system as they see fit. That said, the vast majority of reservations made are Exchange reservations so unless you are booking in the 13 month window for these select Trust assets, most of us are likely more often governed by the Exchange rules and regs, which windje2000 has pointed out are subject to change.

 

[m61376]

Greg- A question you might want to ask- will the system let you waitlist at exactly 13 months out, so if the reservation isn't loaded at 9AM potentially your waitlist request will be filled once it is loaded. Of course, there's the requisite online checking between midnight and 9AM, since points reservations seem to load sometime earlier than the 9AM they should first appear (at least I found that at the 60 day mark and Puck also found that at the 12 or 13 month mark [I believe- not sure exactly what timeframe he reported that happening]), and the risk that perhaps the coveted reservation will be nabbed by someone calling in before being matched to their waitlist, but it might be an additional option.

Seems maddening that you can reserve at 13 months, but that doesn't mean that the inventory is placed for reservations at the 13 month mark. I understand the concept of 13 month and a 12 month mark, and of holding half the reservations to the 12 month mark so that multiple week owners can't nab all the inventory, but don't understand why they would choose a random date.

Not to put a damper on your plans, but I do think there is something else you need to at least consider before buying enough points to make that reservation. While I understand that no point owner can reserve your beloved unit during week 25, theoretically as Marriott acquires more units, there may be other 3 BR week 25 units in the trust, and a Trust owner may make a point reservation for weeks 25 and 26, so that he/she can reserve at the 13 month mark consecutively a week before you can, since you'd only be making a point reservation for week (or days of week) 26. Since there are so few of these units in the Trust, and likely will be very few for years to come, potentially your week 26 could be nabbed by someone making consecutive point reservations.

The only "perfect plan," to to speak, would be to approach an owner on adjacent floors and see about buying a week 26, or if you really want the same unit, a week 25 and 26, and then inviting family or friends along for week 25 (Tug friends count here :hysterical or selling your unit if you can secure consecutive weeks in another unit. In the long run, it's the only guarantee, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying retail points at least (and the MF's for those points- ouch!).

 

[GregT]

Greg- A question you might want to ask- will the system let you waitlist at exactly 13 months out, so if the reservation isn't loaded at 9AM potentially your waitlist request will be filled once it is loaded.
------------------------------
Not to put a damper on your plans, but I do think there is something else you need to at least consider before buying enough points to make that reservation. While I understand that no point owner can reserve your beloved unit during week 25, theoretically as Marriott acquires more units, there may be other 3 BR week 25 units in the trust, and a Trust owner may make a point reservation for weeks 25 and 26, so that he/she can reserve at the 13 month mark consecutively a week before you can, since you'd only be making a point reservation for week (or days of week) 26. Since there are so few of these units in the Trust, and likely will be very few for years to come, potentially your week 26 could be nabbed by someone making consecutive point reservations.

Marilyn,

Thank you for the thoughts -- I also agree that waitlist at 13 months would be desirable, but is not available.

With respect to the Week 25 risk -- it is real, because there is one Week 25 already in the trust (3206/25). I do appreciate your pointing out the risk (which is real), but I still think I have a decent chance of getting my desired reservation. Will send you a PM.

Best,

Greg

 

[m61376]

Greg- Just trying to understand not only your reservation issue but get a grasp of how things really work- and certainly don't trying to be difficult. However, for argument's sake- and because the ultimately flexibility of the points system, especially with relatively rare units, but since the fixed units are also a set arrival day (I am assuming Sat.), what happens if someone reserves 8 days, or 10 days, or whatever, starting during week 25 for unit 3206. I assume that even though it's a single reservation, they'd have to move, unless unit 3206 wasn't sold as a fixed unit? Also, that would mean that they might be reserving a full week, or part thereof, before you could at 13 months, assuming the inventory was in the system- which is also why I'm not getting that the inventory appears at some random date.

 

[NightSkyTraveler]

Am I right to assume that I could just trade/transfer my trust points to someone like Greg so that he could make a reservation using only trust points and he could book what I needed using his legacy points since most reservations it does not matter which type of points are used?