Future of Fort Myers/Sanibel Resorts

[andre10056]

Windward Passage has already imposed a new post-Ian special assessment on owners there. I am only aware of this from having met a Windward Passage owner while staying in the FMB area back in March; that WP owner had also rented a March week where we were staying. If I recall the conversation and the numbers correctly, the first of (3) annual $800 special assessments had already been imposed and collected, with 2 more of that same amount due in each of the next 2 years. I vaguely recall that roof repair was cited to WP owners as the issue motivating this SA action. I have no idea how many unit / weeks exist at Windward Passage or at Mariner's Boat House.

Nearby VRI-managed Bonita Resort has an "owners only" page on the resort web site, but Board information conveyed there is reportedly infrequent and vague. I have no idea if any similar communication mechanism exists at all for Windward Passage. It is very clear that at Mariners Boat House, complete "radio silence" has been the sadly consistent m.o. since Hurricane Ian.

So 2 1/2 years later, the first of 3 annual $800 special assessments have been billed at Windward Passage. And that's apparently to conduct roof repairs. If the roof needed to be repaired. and has been actively leaking, it seems to me that the special assessment should have been charged well before now.

By "owners only" page, I'm not talking about a page that's part of the resort website where you can go to pay your maintenance fees. I'm talking about a page whereby owners can "talk" to owners. Maybe they want to sell their timeshare. Maybe they want to buy another timeshare. Maybe they have a beach chair or chairs that they bought locally that they'd like to leave behind for a following week's owner. It should be more of an owners to owners bulletin board whereby management can also post informative messages. Groups.io can be used to do it but you'd need a moderator who would interact with the onsite management/owner services to confirm that "Joe Shmoe who says he owns unit 250, week 25, and has an email address of abc@xyz.com" is really an owner.

 

[andre10056]

I think what the owners and management companies are underestimating is the cost that carrying unsold inventory will have on the overall costs to owners. There will be a lot of fall out with big special assessments coming. For all practical purposes there is no sales and marketing of timeshare that has happened in Fort Myers for decades. Of course the resorts have done in-house sales with very low costs. If the resorts are rebuilt the cost per interval will exceed $10,000 per interval or $500k per year. Typically the cost of the product is only about 20% of the sales price. The days of being able to sell weeks for $1000 and just get the maintenance fees are over. Yet none of the HOA's will want to partner with a real sales organization. I just don't see a viable future for timeshare in Fort Myers.

On another note what a tragedy Lahaina is. A true nightmare story they had viable offers to sell the property but, the property has done zero effort to get the deeds back so the property can be sold. I really can't figure out who is at fault there.

Getting the deeds back so the property can be sold.

I own a timeshare at a south Florida resort (that I've decided not to identify) that allegedly received an unsolicited $55 million purchase offer from some Texas entity or individual. That would have worked out to about $20,000 per unit week when most people paid no more than a few thousand for their timeshares....and many paid $200, $300 on ebay. So it would have been time to do handstands up and down main street! But I was told by a director that "we'd never have been able to get the deeds back in a timely manner".

At the time of my hearing that, I didn't ask but I don't see why not. I don't know what "getting the deeds back" might entail but if it's just a matter of getting a certain percentage votes or a certain percentage approving certified letters, it seems to me that you could do that within a few days. Perhaps hire some people and start calling those contact numbers. Heck. I would have been pleased to have made a large number of those calls myself. Send me a list of names and numbers!

I wouldn't be surprised if that "we'd never have been able to get the deeds back in a timely manner" conclusion is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. You predict you'll never be able to do it, you act in such a way by not even trying, and...lo and behold!...you were right that it couldn't be done.

 

[timeshare trader]

Getting the deeds back so the property can be sold.

I own a timeshare at a south Florida resort (that I've decided not to identify) that allegedly received an unsolicited $55 million purchase offer from some Texas entity or individual. That would have worked out to about $20,000 per unit week when most people paid no more than a few thousand for their timeshares....and many paid $200, $300 on ebay. So it would have been time to do handstands up and down main street! But I was told by a director that "we'd never have been able to get the deeds back in a timely manner".

At the time of my hearing that, I didn't ask but I don't see why not. I don't know what "getting the deeds back" might entail but if it's just a matter of getting a certain percentage votes or a certain percentage approving certified letters, it seems to me that you could do that within a few days. Perhaps hire some people and start calling those contact numbers. Heck. I would have been pleased to have made a large number of those calls myself. Send me a list of names and numbers!

I wouldn't be surprised if that "we'd never have been able to get the deeds back in a timely manner" conclusion is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. You predict you'll never be able to do it, you act in such a way by not even trying, and...lo and behold!...you were right that it couldn't be done.

It can be done but, you need the help of a company that specializes in it. I know for a fact that Lahaina had an offer for around $25,000,000. When it was clear the management was not doing anything to consolidate the deeds into one single ownership the entity offered to buy it without clean title for something like $15,000,000 which the board declined. They will long regret that.

 

[andre10056]

It can be done but, you need the help of a company that specializes in it. I know for a fact that Lahaina had an offer for around $25,000,000. When it was clear the management was not doing anything to consolidate the deeds into one single ownership the entity offered to buy it without clean title for something like $15,000,000 which the board declined. They will long regret that.

I'm certainly regretting it on Lahaina owners' behalf just as I regret the non-sale of my resort. Seems to me that the respective Boards of Directors should be paving the way for a future sale via getting the appropriate paperwork done now for a possible instantaneous mass filing later. Owners' "sales" could be contingent upon getting at least $20,000 or whatever acceptable amount of money might be attained.

I'm assuming nothing's happened (at least not yet) that will reduce Lahaina's possible future sales price so perhaps the regret won't be long-lived.

 

[dioxide45]

It can be done but, you need the help of a company that specializes in it. I know for a fact that Lahaina had an offer for around $25,000,000. When it was clear the management was not doing anything to consolidate the deeds into one single ownership the entity offered to buy it without clean title for something like $15,000,000 which the board declined. They will long regret that.

I would agree. There are companies out there that will help dissolve a timeshare resort. It is a long process and requires thorough review of the underlying governing documents. How much of a percentage of vote of owners is required to approve such a sale? Once that is approved there are a lot of other legal steps to jump through to dissolve the timeshare. It would probably take several years. It can be done if the BOD and owners have the ambition to do so. Legal and other consulting fees will probably wipe out 50% of any residual value after a sale.

 

[kanerf]

I owned two different timeshares that went belly up and were sold off. Never received a dime from either one.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

I owned two different timeshares that went belly up and were sold off. Never received a dime from either one.

I wonder if you owned at a desirable beach front Resort ?

Wasn't there a saying; Location, location, location...........












.

 

[andre10056]

I owned two different timeshares that went belly up and were sold off. Never received a dime from either one.

Perhaps your timeshare went belly up not because of severe hurricane damage but because it simply couldn't make ends meet from a business perspective. That might say something about its location, demand from travelers, etc.

The Fort Myers Beach timeshares with which I'm familiar were in great demand year round. FMB obviously has its off season (including hot and humid summer months) from just past Memorial Day thru October or November but, even then, the beach was packed with visitors. Timeshare resorts were most definitely solvent and indeed most often fabulously successful businesses.

And that's why suitors are seeking to buy "just became available" gulf front real estate. And willing to pay the biggest of big bucks for such parcels.

 

[theo]

For all practical purposes there is no sales and marketing of timeshare that has happened in Fort Myers for decades. Of course the resorts have done in-house sales with very low costs. <snip> The days of being able to sell weeks for $1000 and just get the maintenance fees are over. Yet none of the HOA's will want to partner with a real sales organization.

You are absolutely right in this astute observation. I have never understood the underlying resistance or reasoning (or lack of reasoning) by FMB HOA’s and / or their contracted management companies to partner with a real sales entity. The meager efforts (and meager results) of “in house” sales speak (scream?) for themselves, begging for some outside professional assistance in marketing. Yet, the option to engage any such outside assistance for resales (or rentals) seems never to be given any consideration at any of the handful of independent timeshares in and around FMB with which I am personally familiar.

I’m certainly no genius, but I really just don’t get it. What / where is the disconnect? Is the underlying value of (or interest in) the product just simply not there anymore, in a model (and at properties) from yesteryear? Is there just not enough potential profit for a professional entity to get themselves involved with selling timeshare intervals at relatively small (and usually older, “legacy”) properties in FMB? Is engaging such an assistance option just too costly, from a Board perspective? Is it something else entirely? This historically consistent reluctance has long puzzled me and I would certainly welcome and appreciate other views, possible explanations, thoughts and perspectives on this subject.

I know of several independent FMB timeshare properties (including one at which I have long owned a few weeks) where the “non performing” weeks (HOA-owned, deedbacks, foreclosures, delinquent owners, etc.) already constitute fully 25% (…one out of every four) of the total weeks that exist there — and that’s before any future post-Ian special assessments. Given the increased burden for the other 75%, it is difficult to imagine such scenarios being financially viable, long term. So, why not enlist outside expert marketing help for resales and rentals? Why the resistance? I really just don’t get it.

Anyway, thoughts and comments sought, welcomed and much appreciated.

 

[theo]

72% of Owners of intervals at (destroyed by Ian) Estero Island Beach Club have now voted to rebuild, having (finally) in recent months received approval of their proposed rebuild design from the FMB Town Council. Permits and funding are the next hurdles for the EIBC rebuilding efforts. 51% owner approval to rebuild would have been sufficient to move forward, so the 72% support speaks for itself.

 

[andre10056]

72% of Owners of intervals at (destroyed by Ian) Estero Island Beach Club have now voted to rebuild, having (finally) in recent months received approval of their proposed rebuild design from the FMB Town Council. Permits and funding are the next hurdles for the EIBC rebuilding efforts. 51% owner approval to rebuild would have been sufficient to move forward, so the 72% support speaks for itself.

Were they informed what the rebuild would cost? Or were they simply asked, survey-style, would you like to see it rebuilt?

Imaginary conversation:

------------------------

"Would you like to see the Estero Island Beach Club rebuilt?

Sure. I'd love that to happen.

Your share of the construction costs are tentatively believed to be $25,000.

Are you f'n crazy? Not in a million years would I pay that. There are other Fort Myers Beach timeshares that I can buy resale for a tiny fraction of that."

-------------------------

If they were told what each owner's cost would be, what was that cost?

 

[theo]

Were they informed what the rebuild would cost? Or were they simply asked, survey-style, would you like to see it rebuilt?
<snip>
If they were told what each owner's cost would be, what was that cost?

I have shared a few facts as provided this week by a FMB reporter I trust. I do not know the answers to your particular questions.

That said, the EIBC owner voting was obviously necessary (and likely legally required by their governing CC&R’s) to at least choose between timeshare plan termination and sale of the property (as the Lahaina Inn owners chose to do on FMB immediately after Ian) or to instead approve moving forward toward rebuilding. The 2200 owners of EIBC intervals have now voted internally for the latter option with a 72% majority vote. Whether or not they have done so with the benefit of actual rebuilding cost projections, I have no idea.

It was further reported that a specific Florida company (Stevens Construction) has already been identified for the potential EIBC rebuild.
I have no additional facts or information on this EIBC matter; I am not (and have never been) an owner there.

 

[andre10056]

I have shared a few facts as provided this week by a FMB reporter I trust. I do not know the answers to your particular questions.

That said, the EIBC owner voting was obviously necessary (and likely legally required by their governing CC&R’s) to at least choose between timeshare plan termination and sale of the property (as the Lahaina Inn owners chose to do on FMB immediately after Ian) or to instead approve moving forward toward rebuilding. The owners of the (2,200) EIBC intervals have now voted internally for the latter option. Whether or not they have done so with the benefit of actual rebuilding cost projections, I have no idea.

It was further reported that a specific Florida company (Stevens Construction) has already been identified for the potential EIBC rebuild.
I have no additional facts or information on this EIBC matter; I have never been an owner there.

Just doing a bit of "back of the envelope" math. I'm not sure my assumptions are correct, or even close to being correct, because I have questions about some of the numbers you've provided.

Your first data point was that the destroyed and demolished EIBC had 75 units. 75 units times 52 intervals equals 3900 intervals.

And then you say that 2200 intervals voted for a rebuild. Had all 75 units times 52 intervals voted, that would mean that 2200 of 3900, or 56.41% voted in favor.

But you've reported that 72%, not 56%, voted in favor. So if 2200 voted in favor (assuming I'm interpreting what you wrote correctly), and that's 72% of the total, the total would now be 3056 (not 3900). Determined by simply solving for x as follows: 2200 = .72 x.

So if the total is now no longer 3900 intervals, and instead 3056 intervals, that would mean they've downsized the project such that a total building unit number would no longer be 75 units, but 3056/52 equals about 59 total units. Which makes sense. You even pointed out how unlikely it was going to be to fit the former 75 units in that now vacant lot with new building regulations.

But a ballpark 60 unit building, perhaps a 1000 square feet unit size, pools, parking, etc. might cost $25,000,000 to $30,000,000, especially with all the new "bombproof" building requirements. Which means each of the ballpark 3056 interval owners might have to pay $8180 to $9817 just to build. And it might take years given how long it's taken for timeshare resorts to just get a contractor to put up drywall in certain spaces.

You can buy timeshare units in Fort Myers Beach resale for a lot less that that. And vacation right away and not at some point in the future. Of course, you wouldn't be getting new. You wouldn't be getting a building built 20 feet above the ground. But if the "big one" hits (or hits again), will it be all that exciting to vacation in Fort Myers Beach if everything's wiped out around it?

 

[andre10056]

Ebay has often had and has now $1 listings for Gold Crown Fort Myers Beach resorts. Just saying.

Do I need to pay $8 to 10,000 for a rebuild?.

 

[andre10056]

And let's not forget about TUG. Free sounds good. Better than 8 to 10 thousand.

 

[PigsDad]

Maybe I missed something in this thread, but aren't you assuming that they had zero insurance? Wouldn't their insurance payout cover a good portion of the rebuild costs?

Kurt

 

[theo]

…I have questions about some of the numbers you've provided.

There are 2200 interval *OWNERS* at EIBC. Those EIBC *OWNERS* have voted to rebuild, by a 72% majority. There were (and would again be) 3825 total *INTERVALS* at EIBC; 75 total units in both the Ian-destroyed complex and / or in the proposed rebuild. (Customarily, only 51 weeks are sold per unit; one week per unit is not sold in order to allow for an annual deep cleaning of each individual unit). 75 x 51 represents 3825 total intervals available for ownership at EIBC; that figure existed in the Ian-destroyed buildings and will be exactly the same in a future rebuild. In the proposed rebuild, there would be 75 identical units of 842 square feet.

I have no knowledge whatsoever regarding EIBC rebuilding costs or how much insurance claim money may have been received for the Ian-destroyed EIBC infrastructure. Whether to “pony up” for the hefty costs to rebuild from scratch is ultimately a decision and choice to be made only by actual EIBC interval owners with “skin in the game”.

 

[andre10056]

Ahhh. OK. So, if I'm NOW interpreting correctly what is going on with EIBC, all 75 units will indeed be rebuilt. When you said that "2200 intervals" had voted for a rebuild, that was not a fraction of the total owners. 2200 is the total number of owners who apparently own 3825 interval weeks, indicating that many of those owners own multiple weeks. And all 2200 were deemed to have voted for the rebuild by virtue of the majority having successfully voted for a rebuild.

Got it.

I can easily see a 75 unit project of 842 square feet units with pool, parking, and other amenities, costing $35,000,000. That may even be a conservative estimate given the new building regulations requiring "bombproof" and flood proof construction.

And, yes, of course that's the owners' decision that you had nothing to do with.

But, in evaluating THEIR decision, they're in effect going to have to pay 35,000,000 divided by 75 times 51 (not 52) interval weeks equals $9151 per unit week.

And by "pay", that means they're not getting whatever insurance proceeds that would otherwise have been paid out to them (minus demolition costs) PLUS whatever incremental amount they'll actually have to present to the association to make up the post-insurance shortfall in total building costs.

If I were an owner, I would gladly have been paid out my share of the insurance proceeds from Ian-caused damage, whatever that may have been, PLUS whatever amount of megabucks a developer may have paid for the uber-valuable real estate. And I would have gladly paid a dollar bill for a timeshare elsewhere in Fort Myers Beach.

 

[andre10056]

Maybe I missed something in this thread, but aren't you assuming that they had zero insurance? Wouldn't their insurance payout cover a good portion of the rebuild costs?

Kurt

I'm assuming that the owners' vote to proceed with the rebuild was necessarily a vote to NOT receive a distribution of the insurance proceeds. So, in effect, they're paying that amount of money, whatever it is, PLUS whatever additional amount of money for which they'll have to write out a check.

 

[andre10056]

Just to make clear why I'm incredulous that owners voted to rebuild, just take a look at what they've necessarily voted not to explore: a sale.

From post # 53 above:

"Red coconut RV park on fort myers beach just sold to developer for 52 million dollars"

From post # 103 above:

"I know for a fact that Lahaina had an offer for around $25,000,000. When it was clear the management was not doing anything to consolidate the deeds into one single ownership the entity offered to buy it without clean title for something like $15,000,000 which the board declined. They will long regret that."