Forget Max, new new thing is Trust Points

[PigsDad]

the trust angle was mentioned in my update today in Charleston, SC. the angle the rep gave was you can use those points to have earlier access to DRI sites. they also stated that the DRI properties upgraded to HGVC standards will still remain available to DRI folks, earlier than HGVC folks.

so, i'm really kicking myself for buying into the MAX upgrade option last year.

I think it is funny when salespeople and others keep on saying that "DRI properties will be upgraded to HGVC standards". No, they will not. Corporate has made it clear that there are three tiers of properties: Hilton Club, HGVC, and HVC (old DRI properties), in that order. The Hilton Club properties are top tier, HGVC is middle tier and HVC is bottom tier. Saying that HVC properties will be at the same level as the HGVC properties just because they are both part of the HGV umbrella is like saying Hampton Inn hotels are just like Waldorf Astoria hotels because they are both under the Hilton Hotels umbrella.

Kurt

 

[dioxide45]

I think it is funny when salespeople and others keep on saying that "DRI properties will be upgraded to HGVC standards". No, they will not. Corporate has made it clear that there are three tiers of properties: Hilton Club, HGVC, and HVC (old DRI properties), in that order. The Hilton Club properties are top tier, HGVC is middle tier and HVC is bottom tier. Saying that HVC properties will be at the same level as the HGVC properties just because they are both part of the HGV umbrella is like saying Hampton Inn hotels are just like Waldorf Astoria hotels because they are both under the Hilton Hotels umbrella.

Kurt

It's more like DRI will be upgraded to Hilton standards. Probably just enough to get a Hilton name on it so they can rent out unused and unsold inventory on Hilton.com.

 

[HuskerATL]

It's more like DRI will be upgraded to Hilton standards. Probably just enough to get a Hilton name on it so they can rent out unused and unsold inventory on Hilton.com.

You know.... The older Hampton Inns by the airport....

 

[ernststarhemberg]

The "trust" angle doesn't sound appealing at all. Maybe I'm old school and/or just don't understand the mechanics of it, but I wouldn't buy into any timeshare that wasn't a deeded ownership interest.

What's the upside to this? Lower cost of buy-in?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

The "trust" angle doesn't sound appealing at all. Maybe I'm old school and/or just don't understand the mechanics of it, but I wouldn't buy into any timeshare that wasn't a deeded ownership interest.

What's the upside to this? Lower cost of buy-in?

The upside is to the developer. I wouldn't buy them at a MF of .25/pp (if that is correct). That's more than my bHC NYC deed.

 

[dayooper]

The upside is to the developer. I wouldn't buy them at a MF of .25/pp (if that is correct). That's more than my bHC NYC deed.

$0.25 per point was ridiculous before they converted points. The goal was $0.15 then and is $0.10 now (at least for me). The MF’s for my 22,400 points would be $5600. I paid, including club dues, $2380. That’s less than half what the DRI/ HVC MF’s are.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I guess the MFs are the average of all of them in the collection and you don't have a homeweek.

When you own in a DRI trust (aka, "Collection") you still have home resort advantage, which means you can book at any resort in that Collection 13 months before check-in. If you are a simple deeded owner, you can reserve at the resort 12 months before check-in.

If you are both an owner and a member of the Club, you can reserve at resorts that are not part of your collection at ten months before check-in.

There is also inventory control, so that the total number of points available in a given Collection aligns with the number and type of deeds that are owned by the Collection/trust. They don't just manufacture points of thin air; points have to be backed by inventory.

Referencing upthread to the bullet point on excess unsold inventory. That would consist of two pieces. One piece is trust points that are owned by Diamond. The other piece is deeds that have not been added to a trust. This second piece can be deeds that have been surrendered by owners, as well as never before sold inventory in newer resorts. When Diamond sells one of these deeds, behind the scenes the deed ownership is transferred to the associated trust, and the new owner receives points in the trust that equate to the point value of the deed.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

the trust angle was mentioned in my update today in Charleston, SC. the angle the rep gave was you can use those points to have earlier access to DRI sites. they also stated that the DRI properties upgraded to HGVC standards will still remain available to DRI folks, earlier than HGVC folks.

so, i'm really kicking myself for buying into the MAX upgrade option last year.

That means they were selling the DRI trust. That is why you would have the DRI booking windows but, if that is your only ownership, then only 6 months into HGVC.

Correct.

I believe that they way that things shake out now, from the Diamond side, for a Collection/Trust owner ....

1. if the owner is not in MAX, nothing is changed. The owner can reserve any resort in the owner's collection at 13 months, using the owner's home resort advantage. If the owner is also a Club, member, at ten months the owner can reserve available Club inventory at any resort in the Club. (Side note here: the ability to reserve at other resorts is not unfettered. It is limited to the amount of inventory that the Club controls at a given resort. Inventory control is still in effect.)
2. if the owner is also in MAX, then everything in the first point applies, plus the owner can reserve in HGVC at 6 months before check-in. But the owner can't get into MAX without making some type of purchase on the HGVC side.

As to why someone might prefer a trust over a deed ... the big advantage is home resort advantage. For someone who likes to visit Hawaii resorts, but wants to have home resort advantage at all the Hawaii Diamond properties, owning in the trust makes more sense than owning a single deed.

Another advantage relates to annual fees. Some resorts have higher annual fees than others. In the trust, the annual fee is the blended value of everything that the trust owns. So, if Resort A has annual fees that are 50% higher than other resorts in the trust, owning points in the trust may work out to a lower annual fee than owning the same number of points in a deed at the resort. (But when doing this calculation, you need to include the trust management fee.)

Trust ownership also spreads the risk on special assessments. If you own at a given resort and there is a special assessment, you will pay the full amount. Whereas if you own in a trust the proportional impact of the fee assessment on annual fees will be less. The flip side, of course, is that because the trust owns a number of properties, your chances of having to pay part of a special assessment are greater in the trust.

 

[Eggrollcreative]

I know the deed supposedly adds value, but to be honest, I really hate them. I hate the complexity of them and it irritates me that they are worthless. You still have to pay title insurance and other crap. It’s just ridiculous. It’s like fake real estate. Since we aren’t interested in burdening our kids with this after we die, I don’t see the value in deeds.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I know the deed supposedly adds value, but to be honest, I really hate them. I hate the complexity of them and it irritates me that they are worthless. You still have to pay title insurance and other crap. It’s just ridiculous. It’s like fake real estate. Since we aren’t interested in burdening our kids with this after we die, I don’t see the value in deeds.

Trust ownerships are also worthless.

A big advantage for owning a deed can be lower annual fees. The annual trust management fee is significant. It's a flat fee, so it less impact with larger point value ownership.

 

[jabberwocky]

Makes sense. More to unload and they can sell the HGVC access at six months with Max. I bet some people will be unhappy with trying to book certain HGVC resorts and seasons if they buy DRI/HGV with the intent of staying at HGVC resorts.

I think that is the whole point. Buy trust points for enhanced access to DRI properties that you can’t access with your current HGVC ownership.

After you switch and try to book HGVC with trust points (and can’t) their sales pitch will become that you need to buy an HGVC deed (and conveniently you can trade in your trust points) .

Rinse and repeat…

 

[CalGalTraveler]

When you own in a DRI trust (aka, "Collection") you still have home resort advantage, which means you can book at any resort in that Collection 13 months before check-in. If you are a simple deeded owner, you can reserve at the resort 12 months before check-in.

This is the FOMO crap that DRI likely dished out in sales presos..."13 month trust point reservations will take your 12 month deed preference."

I bet in reality it is similar to Marriott Abound Trust vs. deeds - separate pools of reservations (trust pool and deed pool).

Does DRI assign view based on timestamp like Vistana? only in the scenario above would it matter. In the case of MVC/Vistana they have wisely given the timestamp preference to deeded owners and Abound is in a separate pool with different view preferences.

With that said, most Vistana properties are deeded and sold out so the trust pool is small (but will grow over time as owners move on). DRI is mostly trust at this point so perhaps what's remaining for deeded is a smaller pool of reservations?

IMHO...I still would buy a resale deed. MVC has completely transitioned to selling trust points. The MF are far higher than deeds. Too many junk deeds in the trust driving up MF. And you have zero control over what goes into the trust, or is swapped out of it. As long as they swap deeds to fill weeks, there is nothing to stop them from cherry-picking the best deeds (or not putting surrendered prime deeds into the trust) into the next new "Trust Points Premium MAX nth degree" offering. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems to me that the DRI, and MVC owners who fared the best were those who resisted the trust and kept their deeds.

 

[ernststarhemberg]

I think that is the whole point. Buy trust points for enhanced access to DRI properties that you can’t access with your current HGVC ownership.

After you switch and try to book HGVC with trust points (and can’t) their sales pitch will become that you need to buy an HGVC deed (and conveniently you can trade in your trust points) .

Rinse and repeat…

Incredible! How many HGV Max owners are going to get a pitch similar to this, after being told that their HGV deed and Max would gain them access to former DRI properties? "Oh, well now if you REALLY want access to DRI properties, you'll need to buy into one of our 'trusts' as well!"

Curious if buying into a Trust makes it easier to decommission properties that they want to sell or tear down? "Ah, we sold off these 75 units at XYZ Las Vegas Villas to a developer because they were old and run down, but we've made up for it by adding these 75 units at Elara/Boulevard/Flamingo into the Trust!"


No clue if that's possible but at some point I know the angle is going to be to consolidate their footprint in areas where the HGV/DRI system has a lot of overlap. Not sure if going to a Trust system makes that easier or not.

 

[pedro47]

What a big mess.

 

[brp]

When you own in a DRI trust (aka, "Collection") you still have home resort advantage, which means you can book at any resort in that Collection 13 months before check-in. If you are a simple deeded owner, you can reserve at the resort 12 months before check-in.

So a resale deed owner can book within their Collection at 12 months. A resale trust owner can book within their Collection at 13 months. And this is limited to Collection only as resale. I think I understand that correctly.

Cheers.

 

[SmithOp]

This is the FOMO crap that DRI likely dished out in sales presos..."13 month trust point reservations will take your 12 month deed preference."

I bet in reality it is similar to Marriott Abound Trust vs. deeds - separate pools of reservations (trust pool and deed pool).

Bingo! Deeded owners are competing in a different inventory pool, so it's not like the trust owners can take all the reservations at 13 months. Of course the sales weasels neglect to explain that bit.

Then you have the poor Max people waiting until 6 months for the dregs that got exchanged between HGV -> HGVC.

As Pedro says. What a mess.

 

[weems637]

Same package of smoke, mirrors, and doubletalk, just with different wrapping paper......

 

[dayooper]

Bingo! Deeded owners are competing in a different inventory pool, so it's not like the trust owners can take all the reservations at 13 months. Of course the sales weasels neglect to explain that bit.

Then you have the poor Max people waiting until 6 months for the dregs that got exchanged between HGV -> HGVC.

As Pedro says. What a mess.

I can think of a few different names to call the DRI-HGVC-Max integration, but this a family forum.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

This is the FOMO crap that DRI likely dished out in sales presos..."13 month trust point reservations will take your 12 month deed preference."

I bet in reality it is similar to Marriott Abound Trust vs. deeds - separate pools of reservations (trust pool and deed pool).

Bingo! Deeded owners are competing in a different inventory pool, so it's not like the trust owners can take all the reservations at 13 months. Of course the sales weasels neglect to explain that bit.

This is correct - separate pools. They have to do it that way to maintain inventory control.

At the resort level, all ownership is in deeds, and ownership is assigned based on those deeds. So the resort divides available weeks in each time slot between trust owned inventory and non-trust inventory.

 

[elaine]

Maybe it’ll work for others, but like crypto, don’t totally get the intrinsic value. I’m keeping my deeded week and will just say no-to max, trust, etc.

 

[escanoe]

There is also inventory control, so that the total number of points available in a given Collection aligns with the number and type of deeds that are owned by the Collection/trust.

That sound more to me like an absolute minimum standard to avoid committing fraud and facing prosecution.

 

[jehb2]

THE HAWAII COLLECTION includes only 3 Hawaii properties

When we did the owners update last month, I swear they were switching back-and-forth between selling us a deeded property and just “points” without distinguishing between the two.

One thing both my husband and I noted was that the “Hawaii collection” only contains three timeshares that were actually in Hawaii— the Modern in Honolulu, Kaanapali Beach club on Maui, and a 3rd on Kauai. The rest of the timeshares in that collection were on the mainland USA, including Nevada and I think Utah.

 

[HuskerATL]

I am watching a FB post about MFs where various folks are adding theirs from both DRI/HVC and HGVC/HC and the DRI/HVC MFs seem to be much higher. Many of the HGVC folks are talking about sub 0.12 and the DRI/HVC folks are talking about 0.20 +

 

[ernststarhemberg]

So do HVC/DRI points go farther than HGV points, or are HVC/DRI owners just getting bent over a barrel? I thought the HGV point recalibration a while back was to bring HGV and DRI points systems into parity, so it seems like the DRI/HVC folks have a raw deal!

 

[dayooper]

So do HVC/DRI points go farther than HGV points, or are HVC/DRI owners just getting bent over a barrel? I thought the HGV point recalibration a while back was to bring HGV and DRI points systems into parity, so it seems like the DRI/HVC folks have a raw deal!

The MF’s are just higher with DRI/HVC. They were higher before the merger and haven’t gone down. If I remember correctly, DRI charged the HOA’s very high management fees and the owners in the trust paid for it.