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Excessive Number of Timeshares available on Redweek

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HuskerATL

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Has any dealt with Fidelity? The listings on their website were better than on RedWeek in that the pts and number of bds are stated in the overview. I couldn’t sort by #BR, Pts and season. It certainly would be much more helpful if the search work because I would be looking (which I am NOT) for a specific deeds.
Another person in the resale FB group commented that they just bought from them and it sounds like it worked out well
 

jp10558

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Their listings on redweek made no sense to me, probably because of lack of information, but they had lower point values at higher purchase prices listed.
 

alwysonvac

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Has any dealt with Fidelity? The listings on their website were better than on RedWeek in that the pts and number of bds are stated in the overview. I couldn’t sort by #BR, Pts and season. It certainly would be much more helpful if the search work because I would be looking (which I am NOT) for specific deeds.
Fidelity has their own website - https://www.fidelityrealestate.com/brand/hilton-grand-vacations/
I haven't used them but they're known for handling DVC resales

You can use their Redweek reference number to locate the listing on their website
1725031350636.png
 
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alwysonvac

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Some of the Redweek listings are also mislabeled.
For example, HGVC doesn't have point allotments of 91,000. A search on Fidelity's website shows that this is a Westin Flex resale.

1725031999054.png


1725031970313.png


1725031893822.png
 

jehb2

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Out of curiosity I looked at listing for HGVC Lagoon Tower in Waikiki. For # of bedroom a lot of listings had “unassigned.” So I clicked on several of these listings and the seller was “Posted by Fidelity.”

Oh, I didn’t see the most recent posts. Looks like I was thinking the same thing as everybody else.
 

JimmyQ

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Has any dealt with Fidelity? The listings on their website were better than on RedWeek in that the pts and number of bds are stated in the overview. I couldn’t sort by #BR, Pts and season. It certainly would be much more helpful if the search work because I would be looking (which I am NOT) for specific deeds.
Yes. I’ve bought both DVC and HGVC from them. All worked out in the end but you have to really double check the contract when it’s issued. They make a lot of errors.

They also charge a $349 admin fee for HGVC properties but I just negotiated for the seller to pay it.

They will let you use any title or closing company which helps keep fees low, unlike Judi Kozlowski who charges $2000 for closing (rip off) and she pockets a good portion of that.
 

SmithOp

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I said this before and got some H8, but I think Hawaii will take a large hit on resale pricing for the more expensive deeds. Japan seems to have alot of owners that want out and between aging out and financial stresses, I expect some sellers will enter the market. Specifically, $3,000-4,000 in MFs is not cheap and some people will just want out. I am hoping to upgrade me deeds, but we'll see.

Nobody needs another timeshare.... but sure want one, two or maybe just 3 more.... :)

I'm not aware of HGVC MFs for Hawaii in the $3k-$4k range, can you provide which ones? My King's Land 2 br Premier Platinum was about $2200 this year.

Maybe you are quoting other systems, or the new Maui penthouse units?
 

GT75

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alwysonvac

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Yeah, something is up. This is a Fidelity listing. $150,000?
View attachment 98695
The three bedrooms in Grand Waikikian and Grand Islander at HHV were sold as fixed week / fixed unit and had retail prices exceeding $150k. As a result, resale asking prices are typically high.

It's probably worth commenting that the Grand Islander's point chart is probably what the new HGVC Maui's point chart is going to look like....

We may have gotten a break with the Phase 2 point chart at Kings Land, but not so much for future full construction properties in Hawaii.

Also, the 3BR Fixed Weeks 26/27 were something like $210K apiece, and the fixed week 2BR Penthouse's were $160K apiece. That's real money...and for a Friday check-in....

This makes my (developer purchase) Marriotts look like bargains. :ponder:....... Wait maybe bargain is the wrong word...:doh:

Best,

Greg

We bought GI in 8/15/15 2 BR PH mountain view room week 45 room 3510. $109k 21k pt. And then we traded our 14k pt Parc Soleil almost even up for a 14.4k pt Kings land in the deal. That gave us permanent Diamond status for Hilton Honors, and all penthouse options in the HGVC brand anywhere. Plus Elite Premier in HGVC. I was happy with the transaction. Plus they gave us $300 voucher toward Benni Hannas and enough HH points to book a week in Bora Bora in a hut over the water!

FROM http://archives.starbulletin.com/content/20081219_Waikikis_Grand_opening

Waikiki's Grand opening

POSTED: Friday, December 19, 2008

John Gaylord, an elementary school principal at the Seoul Foreign School in Korea, will be checking into the Hilton's new timeshare product, The Grand Waikikian Resort, tomorrow, but he could not resist a sneak peak yesterday at his little piece of Hawaii in the sky.

"Hawaii's a fabulous place to travel to. It's been the top leisure place of many years and for good reason," said Gaylord as he surveyed the city, ocean and Diamond Head views from one of the lanais in his penthouse unit.

Gaylord said he and his wife fell in love with Hawaii all over again last Christmas during his first visit to Oahu in 30 years. Since then, the couple has returned to the islands three times in one year and showed their newfound aloha for Oahu with the purchase of one of Hilton's spacious penthouse units, he said.

The economy might be soft and Hawaii's visitor industry may be down, but it's hard to equate these facts with the enthusiasm for the opening of Waikiki's first purposely built timeshare.

More than 200 owners and other guests will join Gaylord tomorrow for the official grand opening, which celebrates a real market anomaly. All other timeshare products in Waikiki, except for the Grand Waikikian, were converted from older apartments or hotel buildings, and these days the credit crunch has ensured that few timeshare projects are making it out of planning.

But Mark Wang, president of Hilton Grand Vacations, said he's not worried about timing.

"We're 27 percent sold — that's actually ahead of pace," Wang said. "We thought we'd only be about 20 percent sold out by this time."

Japanese empty nesters and multi-generational travelers have gravitated to the product, which has also seen strong interest from buyers on the U.S. West Coast and other parts of North America, Wang said.

While Wang said the average buyer has spent $60,000 a week, the project's higher-end product has seen good pickup.

"
The $300,000 weeks have sold out during this release," said Bryan Klum, executive vice president of Asia/Pacific for Hilton Grand Vacations. "The people who are traveling are the ones that want to come."

The 331-unit Grand Waikikian by Hilton Grand Vacation Club is the company's fifth timeshare development in Hawaii and finest offering to date. The company also runs two others on Oahu and two on the Big Island.

Suites at Hilton's newest offering retail for $45,000 to $300,000 for one-week stays at the one, two and three bedroom units. Each suite features an outdoor lanai, full kitchen, washer and dryer, complimentary high-speed wireless Internet access, flat-screen TVs, deep soaking tubs, upscale furnishings and rich wood and stone details. The resort will also have a 5,000-square-foot pool, scheduled for completion in January that will offer a waterslide, waterfalls and swim-through grotto terraces.

In deference to the luxury market, there are also five penthouse floors, offering a separate check in-area, concierge and lounge. On the penthouse floors — from 35 to 39 — suites are appointed with amenities designed to appeal to the project's primary Japan market. These suites feature Japanese house wares and Jacuzzi tubs for extended soaking.

"We are trying to make the Japanese buyer feel very comfortable with our product," said Dione T. Lewis, the Grand Waikikian's general manger.

The timeshare also features a pre-arrival and post-departure lounge, Lewis said. Guests at the lounge can unwind and take showers before checking in or after checking out of the property, she said.
 

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Has any dealt with Fidelity? The listings on their website were better than on RedWeek in that the pts and number of bds are stated in the overview. I couldn’t sort by #BR, Pts and season. It certainly would be much more helpful if the search work because I would be looking (which I am NOT) for specific deeds.
Yes I did for my resale purchase. I thought they made the process pretty easy and would use again!
 

ocdb8r

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They will let you use any title or closing company which helps keep fees low, unlike Judi Kozlowski who charges $2000 for closing (rip off) and she pockets a good portion of that.
How dare you insult the HGVC saint! :LOL:

Agree with the previous posters about Fidelity. The main thing to be aware of is the "admin fee" they add to all their listings (differs based on system) and to try to use a closing agency you are comfortable with. They are a bit of a "factory" and sometimes not the most detailed oriented. In my experience, everyone is on the up and up, but they work on volume and don't always spend as much time on the details. I've never had a problem, but have seen some frustrations in the DVC community about delays to submitting ROFR or errors in banked/borrowed points.
 

yodaDaenerys

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Has any dealt with Fidelity? The listings on their website were better than on RedWeek in that the pts and number of bds are stated in the overview. I couldn’t sort by #BR, Pts and season. It certainly would be much more helpful if the search work because I would be looking (which I am NOT) for specific deeds.
i haven't yet, but asked over in the HGVC owners FB group and Fidelity gets mostly good reviews, from those that have bought resale through them before.
 

HuskerATL

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i haven't yet, but asked over in the HGVC owners FB group and Fidelity gets mostly good reviews, from those that have bought resale through them before.
I have heard of several people that have used them and were happy with it.
 

GT75

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I have been able to use the Fidelity website to search for a specific resort, unit, and season. That to me is a functional website, IMO (I hope that it is maintained and up-to-date). Now, I am not looking to add any more deeds to my ownership.
 

Jason245

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I might have missed the comments but there are 2 things going on in usa right now.

1. Recession(real or perceived a lot of people are hurting right now and all indicators are that the economy isn't doing good) combined with inflation making people have less money for travel.

2. The "boomers" are no longer the biggest in size generation.



As boomers shrink their descendents may not want the timeshares or be able to afford to keep them and have to liquidate them..

Boomers who didn't save enough might be trying to liquidate their "vacation investment"


And then the economy is of course making it harder for people to pay MF or the big loans on these things that retail buyers commit to.

Combine that with the Japanese market literally shrinking by the day (population is declining and keeps declining to the point where now there are entire towns and villages that are dieing off and they are literally begging people to have kids)

Translation to the timeshare market:

Probably gonna be a lot of listings of resale over the next 10 years at least combined with defaults on MFs.

Supply will exceed demand on resale and prices will stay low making resale a huge bargain and patience a big asset (e g. Wait for what you want and it will eventually be listed and if price is too high pressure will be on it to drop price). Only exception is gonna be Disney stuff (between Pixy dust and they fact they they inflate their own resale values using cash from their other businesses to rofr buy stuff) and very high demand specific weeks in very specific high demand resorts (e.g. high quality resorts for spring break or peek ski week etc)







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Chris-ATX

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@Jason245

Interesting points in population cohort shifts.

Is there any market reporting on how GenX and Millennials are taking to TS relative to the Boomers? Like many things, I suspect Millennials aren’t so interested (for whatever reason).

I’d expect the planners at HGVC (and others TS) are watching these long range macro trends and positioning to defend / exploit these.
 

brp

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Very interesting @Jason245. I had not realized that Boomers were no longer the largest. But a recent chart shows that we have been slightly passed by Millenials. And the other cohorts, while still smaller than Boomers, are close. For reference:


The note about Boomer retirement savings is very accurate. We know several people who have had to move from California in retirement, for example. And certainly Boomers have curtailed discretionary expenditure. With that said, it is still a large cohort and very many have not cut back this much.

I think pending interest rate cuts could help. Question is: How much?

Cheers.
 

Jason245

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I am not aware of data on melin or Gen x timeshare preferences.. but timeshares have historically been sold to middle class people as ways to get premium vacation experiences at affordable prices. At least that is how the presentations I went to sounded as well as the income requirements to attend free getaways with presentation requirements.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to Factor in the shrinking middle class as a factor.

All that being said.. I have never seen a timeshare salesman not outright lie to a potential customer to get them signed up to a 50k 15 percent note to upgrade from the 20k 12 percent note for extra benefits...

One thing that worth noting is a consolidation in the industry to reduce the supply of timeshares. I wouldn't be surprised if many timeshare resorts not affiliated with one of the remaining 4 or 5 big timeshare companies start collapsing due to non payment of HOA fees as assessments flood owners to make up for non payment of others. Also factor in that many of the timeshares sold to boomers were built in the 80s and 90s which was 30 to 40 years ago (maintenance costs and replacement costs for lots of things will be needed and if reservs are not up to par.. how many people in their 70s can afford 1 to 5k special assessments.. which only go up as more people don't pay)







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jp10558

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I think there's a lot of economic doomerism and has been for years now, since COVID. I don't actually believe the economy is anywhere near as bad as some claim. I don't see many signs of people thinking there's a downturn, and I live in a not super well to do area of NY. I still see new businesses starting, and the ones that are closing are usually people retiring that could not get anyone to buy them out or want to take over a business that has worked for 20+ years.

I see report after report both on the news and personally of people getting raises. I think the big "crunch" was planned by the Fed to "stop inflation" via somewhat high interest rates.

Digression[Compounded by absolute greed in credit card companies making it worse. I remember in 2014 higher end rewards cards did prime plus 12% or so. Now it's got to be prime plus 21%, with good credit. Add on to that the various companies adding 3-4% for taking a card and I see where people who generally live on credit (and have for IDK, 45 years or so if you believe the news) feel a pinch along with inflation. Given the greed of pretty much all companies lately under the cover of "inflation" and now "high interest rates", I wonder if cards etc will go down as the prime rate goes down? I think personal loans probably will, for whatever reason there seems to be way more competition on the interest rates there vs for credit cards. And as small businesses are trying to move backwards towards cash, I expect smarter people will gravitate to older styles of debt a la personal loans as their rates drop where many cards probably won't.]

None of the above speaks to much of a ongoing major shift economically IMO. I think it seems likely that the fed will start trying some small rate cuts to keep working on their attempt at a "soft landing". I also think like most inflation of the past, people will eventually become accustomed to the newer higher prices especially if wages catch up. We also keep seeing additional efficiencies as low skill low wage jobs get automated and people move to different positions.

I also don't see people giving up on travel. As my millennial cohort has gotten older, they've been doing more trips - mainly due to improved earnings and jobs with actual vacation time and / or WFH. Granted, I'm lucky and mostly interact with traditional middle class people with college degrees.

I still think the main problem timeshares have is their sales model and the problems that come from that. The Internet has made it harder to completely hide information, and so far Timeshares don't seem to really flood the zone online with bullcrap to confuse people. They do all that in person in the sales meetings. Millennials an younger are more online and actively avoid more in person interactions, so I think to even get someone in the room is going to take more work than it used to. I think some of the attempts to do Zoom presentations and more online e-mail etc contacts are perhaps trying to navigate this change in younger generations preferences.

I think the bigger problem with smaller timeshares is not only people aging out, it's again the market change - the only people I know who want to go back to the same place every year are either over 65+ or have family and tend to stay with those family.

Like so many things, I think the timeshare companies are going to pull a Kodak and just not want to change their strategy cause they're still making tons of money (never mind from a shrinking owner base) until the whole paradigm changes and they go bust. They could change their model, they just don't want to. TBH I don't think AirB&B is the competitor so many think it is. I think it might end up being the "long stay" hotel chains, if they can keep their costs down.
 

Jason245

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I don't disagree.. but I would say as a someone who falls into the millennial/genx bucket that for the last 10 years I have gone with my wife and kids to the same place for labor day weekend (a hgvc resort).. also I end up in Orlando multiple times a year.. but that could be because where I live.

I would say that the big timeshare groups with partial week stay and multiple resorts in system to stay at opportunities have lots of appeal .. the pricing just doesn't make sense unless you resale (but we all know that already).

Hgvc has been fantastic to me and I bought deeds (if getting for penny is buying) at higher mf than everyone suggested..but am still ending up ahead vs hotel or rentals each year thanks to tugg .





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Tamaradarann

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I think there's a lot of economic doomerism and has been for years now, since COVID. I don't actually believe the economy is anywhere near as bad as some claim. I don't see many signs of people thinking there's a downturn, and I live in a not super well to do area of NY. I still see new businesses starting, and the ones that are closing are usually people retiring that could not get anyone to buy them out or want to take over a business that has worked for 20+ years.

I see report after report both on the news and personally of people getting raises. I think the big "crunch" was planned by the Fed to "stop inflation" via somewhat high interest rates.

Digression[Compounded by absolute greed in credit card companies making it worse. I remember in 2014 higher end rewards cards did prime plus 12% or so. Now it's got to be prime plus 21%, with good credit. Add on to that the various companies adding 3-4% for taking a card and I see where people who generally live on credit (and have for IDK, 45 years or so if you believe the news) feel a pinch along with inflation. Given the greed of pretty much all companies lately under the cover of "inflation" and now "high interest rates", I wonder if cards etc will go down as the prime rate goes down? I think personal loans probably will, for whatever reason there seems to be way more competition on the interest rates there vs for credit cards. And as small businesses are trying to move backwards towards cash, I expect smarter people will gravitate to older styles of debt a la personal loans as their rates drop where many cards probably won't.]

None of the above speaks to much of a ongoing major shift economically IMO. I think it seems likely that the fed will start trying some small rate cuts to keep working on their attempt at a "soft landing". I also think like most inflation of the past, people will eventually become accustomed to the newer higher prices especially if wages catch up. We also keep seeing additional efficiencies as low skill low wage jobs get automated and people move to different positions.

I also don't see people giving up on travel. As my millennial cohort has gotten older, they've been doing more trips - mainly due to improved earnings and jobs with actual vacation time and / or WFH. Granted, I'm lucky and mostly interact with traditional middle class people with college degrees.

I still think the main problem timeshares have is their sales model and the problems that come from that. The Internet has made it harder to completely hide information, and so far Timeshares don't seem to really flood the zone online with bullcrap to confuse people. They do all that in person in the sales meetings. Millennials an younger are more online and actively avoid more in person interactions, so I think to even get someone in the room is going to take more work than it used to. I think some of the attempts to do Zoom presentations and more online e-mail etc contacts are perhaps trying to navigate this change in younger generations preferences.

I think the bigger problem with smaller timeshares is not only people aging out, it's again the market change - the only people I know who want to go back to the same place every year are either over 65+ or have family and tend to stay with those family.

Like so many things, I think the timeshare companies are going to pull a Kodak and just not want to change their strategy cause they're still making tons of money (never mind from a shrinking owner base) until the whole paradigm changes and they go bust. They could change their model, they just don't want to. TBH I don't think AirB&B is the competitor so many think it is. I think it might end up being the "long stay" hotel chains, if they can keep their costs down.
I believe that some timeshare companies are starting to change their model and the change will work out for them financially as well as timeshare owners who no longer need or want their timeshares. Some timeshare companies are doing Deed Backs where they take back the timeshare without a cost. Therefore, they are getting more inventory to sell without the cost of having to build or acquire properties. This is a win win for the Timeshare Company as well as the Timeshare Owner who wants to stop paying the maintenance.
 

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I believe that some timeshare companies are starting to change their model and the change will work out for them financially as well as timeshare owners who no longer need or want their timeshares. Some timeshare companies are doing Deed Backs where they take back the timeshare without a cost. Therefore, they are getting more inventory to sell without the cost of having to build or acquire properties. This is a win win for the Timeshare Company as well as the Timeshare Owner who wants to stop paying the maintenance.
Unless they are Dog Weeks with high MFs. I think the model will evolve more to points in a pool. It would allow for better margins.
 

rickandcindy23

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I believe that some timeshare companies are starting to change their model and the change will work out for them financially as well as timeshare owners who no longer need or want their timeshares. Some timeshare companies are doing Deed Backs where they take back the timeshare without a cost. Therefore, they are getting more inventory to sell without the cost of having to build or acquire properties. This is a win win for the Timeshare Company as well as the Timeshare Owner who wants to stop paying the maintenance.
Spot on.

We are closing on a Westin property listed by Redweek, and I am shocked at the closing costs with title insurance. I don't recommend RW for buying any timeshare. But that's me.
 
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