Email From HGVC (Timeshare Fraud Tactics) [merged]

[chapjim]

Education Alert: New Timeshare Fraud Tactics Hilton Grand Vacations remains committed to protecting you from fraudulent timeshare schemes. In fact, earlier this year, HGV won a landmark ruling in federal court against two third-party timeshare exit companies targeting Owners with predatory scams. The ruling established a precedent to protect Owners from future scams by identifying these companies engaged in false advertising. Despite the court’s ruling, fraudulent timeshare companies are still operating globally and targeting Owners like you. This is why we’re committed to helping you stay up to date on the various fraud methods they’re using to try and deceive you.​

New Timeshare Fraud Education Video: To educate our Owners and Members on recent fraud activity, we created an education video that offers tips, resources and examples of ongoing timeshare schemes. You can view the video here.​

The Latest Timeshare Fraud Scams Around the world, timeshare scammers use a variety of communication tactics to defraud Owners. Recently, there’s been an uptick in scams originating from Mexico claiming to be able to sell, rent or transfer your ownership with individuals posing as HGV Team Members, U.S. attorneys, U.S. escrow and title companies, or even officials from the Mexico Department of Tourism or Mexican Tax Administration Services. That’s not all — the U.S. Treasury Department announced sanctions earlier this year against associates of the Jalisco New Generation drug cartel who targeted U.S. residents seeking to exit their timeshare by claiming to have a buyer, but the timeshare Owners would need to pay taxes and other illegitimate fees before finalizing the deal. And in Europe, fraudulent companies continue to defraud Owners and Members through various tactics — some of which have reported receiving a falsified notice that a European Order for Payment (EOP) has been issued against them for past-due maintenance fees. As well, recent reports have shown an influx of emails being received by Owners and Members from third parties that induce scare tactics and falsely claim they were misled about their ownership and membership purchases prior to HGV’s acquisition. In both examples, these fraudulent operators will offer their assistance to help fight the claims being made when, in fact, they’re scamming Owners and Members by charging for services not being performed and are not required.​

As always, if the deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Never commit to any payments or provide personal information over the phone.​

Educational Resources to Help You For more information, including articles, our new video, tips on how to identify timeshare scams and ways to report fraudsters to the authorities, login to the Club website and visit your dedicated Timeshare Fraud Education page. Additionally, you can visit vacation-times.org for a list of reported alerts on numerous scammers. As always, when in doubt please reach out to us. Contact information is also available on the Club website.​

 

[TUGBrian]

nice of them to email a warning to all members!

wonder how much it cost for them to refer all their owners to vacation-times.org

 

[Talent312]

As I've said before about these sorts of warnings:
If they had a decent take-back program to let members
divest themselves, these fraudsters would disappear.

Instead, they make it difficult for owners to unburden
themselves, and thus create an eco-system for them.

 

[RX8]

I believe it was Diamond that had filed the suit that was resolved in March.

Diamond Resorts Wins Critical Ruling to Protect Customers From Nationwide Consumer Scam

ORLANDO, Fla., March 24, 2023--Diamond Resorts Wins Critical Ruling to Protect Customers From Nationwide Consumer Scam

finance.yahoo.com

Just a guess but I suspect that many HGVC deeds have at least some positive value. Conversely, I also believe that many Diamond deeds/trusts that have zero to negative value. Now that HGV owns Diamond this is something that brings a little more realty that their customers feel that they have little option but to seek out alternatives to getting out of their timeshare.

 

[TUGBrian]

As I've said before about these sorts of warnings:
If they had a decent take-back program to let members
divest themselves, these fraudsters would disappear.

Instead, they make it difficult for owners to unburden
themselves, and thus create an eco-system for them.

I grow more and more frustrated at the responsible exit website on a daily basis....

it just looks so good from a PR perspective as if the industry is happy to work with owners, perhaps i was just too naive at the start to believe that was the goal.

now half or so of the programs listed on that page dont provide any actual options to surrender a unit back...and even worse the "trusted resale providers" link on that same page promotes upfront fee resale companies that will simply prey on these owners desperate for a legitimate exit strategy.

at quick glance

bluegreen - selective takeback, high cost
capital vacations/VRI - selective takeback...cost varies
wyndham - carte blanche takeback, free
dri - excludes resale, high cost
hgvc - selective takeback, though no cost that ive seen reported
hicv - carte blanche takeback, high cost
hyatt/hyatt - very selective takeback, ive not heard of any fees however
hyatt/welk - i notice this has been removed from the page, or simply merged into the HVC one...but last i heard they offer no deedback program at all despite being listed here as having one.
innseason resorts - ive actually not heard anything about this program at all via a firsthand report
marriott - im not sure ive ever heard of a marriott owner at all being rejected (inside the us anyway)? or a deedback fee?
shell - under wyndham umbrella
sheraton/westin/vistana - under marriott umbrella
westgate resorts - selective takeback - high cost
worldmark - under wyndham umbrella
stoneridge resorts - no info on this
windrifter resort - no info on this.

 

[dioxide45]

I am not aware of any take back program for HGVC. No fees for Vistana or Marriott feedbacks and are pretty much carte blanche.

I think the main issue with HGVC is that the deeds people would want to give back are the low season weeks with high MF to point ratios. These may have $0 or even negative values. Think off season studio ms in Orlando. They had a hard enough time selling them the first time. Without a trust bases product they are forced to try and resell that week.

 

[TUGBrian]

I think its more of a situation with HGVC that if someone wants to give back points, they usually have no issues doing so. that said, those folks likely dont have issues giving away or even selling points, so its a bit of a moot point on that front for HGVC points owners anyway.

you are exactly right regarding legacy weeks owners and its a mixed bag there. for instance the elara giveaway post above said they got no help from hgvc in regards to deedbacks and instead were referred to a resale company which is utter garbage. however ive no doubt there are plenty of valuable hgvc legacy weeks out there!

It actually got me so annoyed, I typed up an email to Mark Wang, perhaps he will read it and provide a response...or perhaps he will just hit the delete button.

 

[RX8]

it just looks so good from a PR perspective as if the industry is happy to work with owners, perhaps i was just too naive at the start to believe that was the goal.

100% agree it is all PR BS. HGV’s “help” is to direct owners of dog weeks to resale companies charging fees knowing full well themselves that the weeks will never sell. Even HGV doesn’t want them for free, heck they don’t even want them if the owner paid them $1,000 to take them.

Instead of spending big bucks paying lawyers to sue exit companies they should think about using those same dollars to establish a program that really helps owners that isn’t just lip service.

 

[dioxide45]

100% agree it is all PR BS. HGV’s “help” is to direct owners of dog weeks to resale companies charging fees knowing full well themselves that the weeks will never sell. Even HGV doesn’t want them for free, heck they don’t even want them if the owner paid them $1,000 to take them.

Instead of spending big bucks paying lawyers to sue exit companies they should think about using those same dollars to establish a program that really helps owners that isn’t just lip service.

I think the lawsuits will end. Those seem to be a product of Mike Flasky, the former CEO of Diamond. I watched an interview that he did and he seemed to indicate that the big brands don't want to go down the litigation route. HGV will see any existing lawsuits through, but after that we probably won't see any more. I think Hilton's biggest issue is the lack of a trust points product. It doesn't give them an easy outlet for many of the weeks people want to get rid of. At least if they had a trust points product, like Marriott, Vistana, Wyndham and even Diamond, then they can just convey deeded back weeks to the trust and sell them as points.

 

[4TimeAway]

Selling something of no value and claiming it has value is wrong.

That said the timeshare sellers, are commission only and are trained to engage in connecting personally with the Prospect. They seem to try and size up the person's interest, ability to pay and present the best option at FULL PRICE. I suspect very few people say that sounds good, so they go into a TO (Take Over) Person to come to the table and try to grind a bit. They push sometimes lie, Pitch Heat, in other areas we call that commit fraud, but I'm just a layperson and not a legal expert.

The issue I see most people fall for is looking at the payment or the "price" and not the product. They lower the offering and confuse the Prospect with stupid crazy math and emotional math that is irrational, wrong and not tied to what is actually being offered. So, they lower to off season, if that doesn't work, every other year and then make it seem like a deal by lowering their rate. The issue is Resale is like 5% of the prices they are talking, but when you hear they will lower the price right now, today by 50%... you feel stupid not saying yes... of course they add some other small door prizes, and you feel like you've won.

The fine print has the 19% interest, the three days off-season midweek, but you're exhausted but more importantly you feel like it's a good deal. Words like its an investment in your future really pull at the emotional strings.

I think the Sunk Cost sets in way after the Rescind Period and you're stuck. You were sold.

The timeshare sellers are in the same area where if they don't close say 15% of prospects they are fired. Then they see the top sellers driving a Ferrari and mid-level sellers with Rolexes.

It's a Boiler Room and the fish coming in are dinner for the sharks.

 

[4TimeAway]

The major timeshare companies have issues also... Shareholders.

It seems 1/3 of profits are from running the operation of timeshares, 1/3 is from selling timeshares and 1/3 is financing timeshares.

From my perspective as a Resale Person, the terrible selling practices are what keeps these entities alive.

In a way, I profit off the unsustainable business practices.

My hope is they find a better way.

 

[Eric B]

HGV does have an outlet for the low value/high MF weeks - they'll let you trade it in to buy a high value/low MF week that they will then take back from you for no extra cost other than the upgrade.

 

[4TimeAway]

HGV does have an outlet for the low value/high MF weeks - they'll let you trade it in to buy a high value/low MF week that they will then take back from you for no extra cost other than the upgrade.

They will fix the junk they sold you if you spend another $20,000.

Maybe the Developer should be required to purchase at 20% of value for 5 years by state laws or some kind of contractual obligation as part of a consent decree someday.

Veteran TUG members understand their options, but the general people don't.

On the other hand, if you use the timeshare, RCI/II and all the doors it opens up for you. In 10 years, you might be able to make it be beneficial.

 

[jp10558]

It just seems to me that there has to be a "Club Store" style membership where this works out with less "near fraud" all around. Like, the idea of committing to bulk purchases for a membership fee so the individual parts are cheaper is well understood and works in a lot of areas. I know this doesn't work with ownership, but with the various trust points systems it seems like a potential option. Or just if they controlled the rental market so that renting a given week is always 20% more than the MFs for that week.

 

[PigsDad]

Or just if they controlled the rental market so that renting a given week is always 20% more than the MFs for that week.

How would they control the rental market? In an open market, rental prices are based on supply and demand; no one "sets" a rental price -- it is the market that determines what people will agree to pay for a certain rental. On the other side of that, maintenance fees are based on the actual cost of running and maintaining the property.

Kurt

 

[drucifer]

Or just if they controlled the rental market so that renting a given week is always 20% more than the MFs for that week.

This has been done on a small scale at a single individual resort. There was a resort where resale deeds were worth less than zero, and a guy actually would take the deeds from people with a payment. He would then pay the MFs and list the week on AirBnB and VRBO (this legacy resort had no policy regarding this). Over time, he wound up owning something like half the resort (he had half the deeds), had voting interest, and decided to have a special assessment to fix the place up substantially, which resulted in more owners exiting. The exiting owners paid him to take it, essentially.

 

[4TimeAway]

This has been done on a small scale at a single individual resort. There was a resort where resale deeds were worth less than zero, and a guy actually would take the deeds from people with a payment. He would then pay the MFs and list the week on AirBnB and VRBO (this legacy resort had no policy regarding this). Over time, he wound up owning something like half the resort (he had half the deeds), had voting interest, and decided to have a special assessment to fix the place up substantially, which resulted in more owners exiting. The exiting owners paid him to take it, essentially.

One of the benefits and issues timeshares have is the "owners" lack sufficient votes to actually manage the property cost effectively. On the plus side, we just pay a few bucks extra and someone else manages all the hassles of "actually owning the property," but how much more is this actually worth?

If you multiple the MF by 52 and the number of units, it's quite a sum of money annually.

Maybe we should set up an opportunity fund or better yet, just a management company. The challenge would be getting control of the Boards to get a foot in the door.

Control=Power=$$$ (sometimes)

 

[BingoBangoBongo]

One of the benefits and issues timeshares have is the "owners" lack sufficient votes to actually manage the property cost effectively. On the plus side, we just pay a few bucks extra and someone else manages all the hassles of "actually owning the property," but how much more is this actually worth?

If you multiple the MF by 52 and the number of units, it's quite a sum of money annually.

Maybe we should set up an opportunity fund or better yet, just a management company. The challenge would be getting control of the Boards to get a foot in the door.

Control=Power=$$$ (sometimes)

For less than 10 cents per point, I'm willing to have someone else manage the properties and all the headaches that come with that. It's also nice to know that if something isn't working while I'm there, someone else has to deal with fixing it.

 

[GTLINZ]

it just looks so good from a PR perspective as if the industry is happy to work with owners, perhaps i was just too naive at the start to believe that was the goal.

The timeshare companies just don't want anyone else to get to hoodwink you from your hard earned money in their name - they can do that just fine on their own!

 

[dioxide45]

Already covered here in the HGVC forum;

Email From HGVC (Timeshare Fraud Tactics)

Education Alert: New Timeshare Fraud Tactics Hilton Grand Vacations remains committed to protecting you from fraudulent timeshare schemes. In fact, earlier this year, HGV won a landmark ruling in federal court against two third-party timeshare exit companies targeting Owners with predatory...

tugbbs.com

 

[JONC777]

I am not aware of any take back program for HGVC. No fees for Vistana or Marriott feedbacks and are pretty much carte blanche.

I think the main issue with HGVC is that the deeds people would want to give back are the low season weeks with high MF to point ratios. These may have $0 or even negative values. Think off season studio ms in Orlando. They had a hard enough time selling them the first time. Without a trust bases product they are forced to try and resell that week.

contact resale@hgvc.com

I was once offered and took $1449 for a contract at sea world hgvc that I had purchased from ebay 2 years earlier, and I closed out a contract at The Bay Club at no cost resently.