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Don't understand RCI math

timeos2

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Now, Honest i wouldn't say...But if we are weighing things on a scale of 'lesser of the two evils' i would definately consider PCC's and RCI less evil them HOA/POA/BOD's

Seems to broad an assumption as those groups cover everything from what I would deem self centered Developer controlled resorts/Associations to the most mom & pop style tiny resort operation. Over that group there will be outstanding, owner controlled and operated Associations and those that deserve to be ripped apart. To simply make a blanket statement that all are bad and/or corrupt is way off the mark. That makes all observations by this poster questionable. You have to look at each case individually as, unlike RCI or the PCC's they are each a case study all their own. One size does not fit all.
 

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That makes all observations by this poster questionable.

I think that is uncalled for ... Ride's opinion (or "observation") is as welcome here as yours (or mine) is.

correct?
 

Timeshare Von

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Now, Honest i wouldn't say...But if we are weighing things on a scale of 'lesser of the two evils' i would definately consider PCC's and RCI less evil them HOA/POA/BOD's

WOW - how can you say that? Most HOA/POA/BODs are representative of individual owners like us. Unfortunately, like many volunteer boards, they are in over their skies in terms of the skills and knowledge to run a business and bad decisions are made. Trust me, I've worked for enough of them to see it, experience it and be victim of it first hand.

PCCs and RCI are corporations with corporate motives (profits) that often by definition can be at odds with those they do business with.

I would list them least offensive (evil) to worst as:

* HOA/POA/BODs
* RCI (and ALL exchange companies)
* PCCs
 

timeos2

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I think that is uncalled for ... Ride's opinion (or "observation") is as welcome here as yours (or mine) is.

correct?

It is very welcome - it helps create the conversation here. That doesn't mean it's not a questionable stance, does it?

Like the "koolaid" drinker, what is a now common term to refer to those that tend to blindly subscribe to a company or leaders line. Having a questionable opinion or being described as a koolaid drinker is a mild (IMO) rebuke of that position and in no way a personal attack. Of course they could be right, but not in my opinion. If that makes my ideas questionable or me a koolaid drinker so be it. It doesn't bother me in the least.
 

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You have to look at each case individually as, unlike RCI or the PCC's they are each a case study all their own. One size does not fit all.

To dismiss my generalization that all POA/HOA/BOD's are evil then to make your own generalizations about PCC's seems a bit, well, one sided
 

rickandcindy23

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This thread isn't supposed to be about HOA BOD's. I am getting cranky now.:mad: :rolleyes:

I am really tired of Ride's lumping all BOD's together as evil, since I work hard on a BOD of a very small Colorado resort, which has been out of developer control for nearly 30 years. I used to be on another BOD in Colorado, which was larger, but was out of developer control for that many years, too. Owners have my phone and email address, and it's in every single newsletter that goes out.

What would be your ideal BOD, Ride? You own timeshare. Imagine the best BOD possible. Someone has to hire/ fire the management company and make sure they do their job for owners. The management company must have some concern they could be fired, so who is going to do that?

Insulting people on these threads is not fair, Ride, and you stir the pot way too much. You need to find a different hobby and not insult those of us who help keep resorts running and take very little compensation for doing it.

Ironically, you now own resorts managed and controlled completely by developers. What made you think those two were different, and why in the world would you even buy timeshare, Ride, let alone two that are run by the worst companies imaginable.
 

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Insulting people on these threads is not fair, Ride, and you stir the pot way too much. You need to find a different hobby and not insult those of us who help keep resorts running and take very little compensation for doing it.

Please don't take it personally Cindy, i also insult the Apple company on other forums, when i do that it is in no way meant as an insult towards anyone that works for apple, just the company in general....When i speak of HOA/POA/BOD's its not the people but what is or in most cases is not being accomplished by those HOA/POA/BOD's

Others have insulted Wyndham, as an owner of Wyndham i do not take those insults personally...

What would be your ideal BOD, Ride? You own timeshare. Imagine the best BOD possible.

honestly, i don't have a problem with developer controlled resorts, they are no better or worse then owner run, heck, places like Marriott, Disney and the Four seasons aren't worse because of it...i think a developer controlled resort maybe even run better, they care a bit more about the bottom end then some of the HOA/POA/BOD's i've seen and have the experience to know how to make the money work for everyone

The Ideal HOA/POA/BOD would consist of people who are able to deal with what is required to maintain and raise the value of the resort...Some with several years in Construction to control repairs and upgrades, A person with several years running a Landscaping and Maintenance to keep an eye on the grounds, a highly skilled accountant to invest and grow the profits, and yes, someone who has experience selling and renting Timeshare to deal with the Deedbacks

But even without those, at the very least, there needs to be someone on EVERY board that has experience selling and renting timeshares...there is no excuse for 20%+ of MF's being Weeks unowned or used
 
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timeos2

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To dismiss my generalization that all POA/HOA/BOD's are evil then to make your own generalizations about PCC's seems a bit, well, one sided

Let the facts speak and the generalization on PCC's sticks but easily slides off the HOA/POA/BOD groups. Unlike the HOA's PCC's are one of a kind operation and no known exceptions to the lies, unreliability and excessive costs they all exhibit have ever been verified. One group (HOA's, etc) MAY be corrupt in a specific case or two while ALL PCC's are at the very least less than upfront about how they operate and what they plan after you pay the outrageous fees they require. Truly apples and oranges comparison.
 

timeos2

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The Ideal HOA/POA/BOD would consist of people who are able to deal with what is required to maintain and raise the value of the resort...Some with several years in Construction to control repairs and upgrades, A person with several years running a Landscaping and Maintenance to keep an eye on the grounds, a highly skilled accountant to invest and grow the profits, and yes, someone who has experience selling and renting Timeshare to deal with the Deedbacks

But even without those, at the very least, there needs to be someone on EVERY board that has experience selling and renting timeshares...there is no excuse for 20%+ of MF's being Weeks unowned or used

Those exist so how can you make a blanket statement that "all" are corrupt, etc?
 

rickandcindy23

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The Ideal HOA/POA/BOD would consist of people who are able to deal with what is required to maintain and raise the value of the resort...Some with several years in Construction to control repairs and upgrades, A person with several years running a Landscaping and Maintenance to keep an eye on the grounds, a highly skilled accountant to invest and grow the profits, and yes, someone who has experience selling and renting Timeshare to deal with the Deedbacks

But even without those, at the very least, there needs to be someone on EVERY board that has experience selling and renting timeshares...there is no excuse for 20%+ of MF's being Weeks unowned or used
You are describing a management company! The BOD should be owners who have a personal stake in the resort and make sure the management company can provide all of those things.

The BOD should only be reimbursed travel expenses to get to/ from meetings, and many meetings should take place via telephone conference to save owners money.

I want people who love the resort and want to keep it maintained, both for my use, and to uphold trading value. I am the person on the board who provides newsletters to owners, which keeps owners informed of the timeshare trends, like the new RCI weeks system, which has been great for the owners at my home resort.

The BOD needs to consider the value the owners get compared to the fees they pay. We do well at Val Chatelle because the units are maintained, but not fancy, and we have things others don't have, like heated garages and hot tubs on every deck.

It's a different timeshare experience because we have no clubhouse with community pool. It's a ski resort in Summit County with lots of cold weather and snow. The hot tub is just what the doctor ordered for sore muscles after trudging around her skis and boots. Our fees are lower for blue weeks than red weeks, so the blue week owners don't feel they are holding up the value of the resort for skiers.
 

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You are describing a management company! The BOD should be owners who have a personal stake in the resort and make sure the management company can provide all of those things.

IMO, and obviously this is just my opinion...A HOA/POA/BOD should have the experience and know how to keep the management company in line...i may have misspoke with my ideal HOA/POA/BOD, i think the Ideal would be no HOA/POA/BOD 100% transparency to 100% of owners, everything should be voted on by every owner...Sure, 85% will never respond to the letter for a vote...But those 15% that do will be a larger number then the 6-15 members of an HOA/POA/BOD and have a more diverse education/training/experience level...With all the owners weighing in on each topic, the amount of experience/training/education is nearly endless

Democracies aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got right now, you guys can see what the happens with a Republic, does your state representative REALLY represent you? Its the same thing with an HOA/POA/BOD
 

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Wow...I almost skipped this thread

This is exactly the kind of thread I like best....a simple question with not so simple an answer, lots of tangential discussion and opinion, where cranky prevails

The answer to the ops question is simple and Ride hit it right on the nose...buy low and sell high...actually I think the formula is more complex than that..I thing they pay as little as they can get away with and charge as much as they can
 

Timeshare Von

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IMO, and obviously this is just my opinion...A HOA/POA/BOD should have the experience and know how to keep the management company in line...i may have misspoke with my ideal HOA/POA/BOD, i think the Ideal would be no HOA/POA/BOD 100% transparency to 100% of owners, everything should be voted on by every owner...Sure, 85% will never respond to the letter for a vote...But those 15% that do will be a larger number then the 6-15 members of an HOA/POA/BOD and have a more diverse education/training/experience level...With all the owners weighing in on each topic, the amount of experience/training/education is nearly endless

Democracies aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got right now, you guys can see what the happens with a Republic, does your state representative REALLY represent you? Its the same thing with an HOA/POA/BOD

Ride I must say your vision for how a volunteer board of directors with an employed management company could not be further from the best practices of how governance and operations should be handled.

Boards are elected by the members so that more nimble and higher level decisions can be made in a timely manner. Yes, members should vote on such things as budget but most of the day-to-day should not be necessarily decided by membership.

When you speak of having a board to keep the management company in line, that sounds a lot like micromanagement to me. The board has the responsibility (legal/fiduciary) to hire and provide general oversight on the management company but not be meddlesome in the day-to-day of the laundry list of activities you listed in another response.

The exception to this would be if the organization is too small (financially) to afford a management company and it is a volunteer operated association. Then yes, you need to have a lot of technical experience in the board so that key operational areas are performed at a high level.

I agree with you on transparency, which is something many volunteer boards struggle with. I've had to education board chairs/presidents about some of the legal and regulatory responsibilities in this area, only to have them say "Sorry I don't agree. We will not release our tax returns to anyone." (Such is an example of a volunteer out over his skies!!! And a complaint filing with the IRS and significant fines to follow.)

The most important thing is that one size does not fit all so how one POA/HOA operates may or may not work for another group. But to throw them all into the "they're evil" bucket is just not correct.

p.s. Somewhere in this thread it was mentioned that the POA/HOA should be responsible for improving the value of the timeshare. I don't see how that is remotely possible, when it isn't possible to retain the "value" given the prices paid and ultimately the amount of "value" you might see in resale.
 

Timeshare Von

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Wow...I almost skipped this thread

This is exactly the kind of thread I like best....a simple question with not so simple an answer, lots of tangential discussion and opinion, where cranky prevails

The answer to the ops question is simple and Ride hit it right on the nose...buy low and sell high...actually I think the formula is more complex than that..I thing they pay as little as they can get away with and charge as much as they can

I don't think I saw this so much as crankiness but an outright hijack.
 

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High values for resorts where there is always a glut of inventory versus reduced value for resorts that are hard to get any time of the year and deposits are taken for exchanges as soon as they hit the bank for much of the year means that RCI is turning supply and demand on its head, and that is a big part of the problem.


I think it's all about supply & demand and for some places, having your exchange confirmed ASAP even at a higher rate is reason enough to use more TPU.

I've seen some of that with researching UK & Ireland trades. Ireland is especially hard to get, so I was more than happy to use 33 TPU to get a week more than 18 months out. That same week will go for a fraction of that, if it happens to be still available now or even closure to the check-in date.

Hawaii is really skewed when you look at trades with a long lead time, and those last minute. A Hawaii week that you can get "next week" is like 4-7, and yet I'm betting it was probably over 20 or maybe even 30 a year ago.

I don't know for sure, though and have no factual info to base my theory on . . . just an observation and trying to figure it out myself.
 

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An exchange company is far different than a retail business, and you are comparing apples and oranges.

A retail business buys at one price and sells at another and the difference is their gross profit. They do not charge you a service charge for shopping in their store.

An exchange company is a third party facilitator of exchanges and charges a hefty service charge (exchange fee) for doing so. To double dip and also charge a substantial differential in trading power is just outrageous.

Then there are the resorts, mostly in overbuilt areas that are overpointed. Why, when there is usually a glut on the market of such weeks, should those weeks be subsidiaed by being given more trading power for a deposit than it takes to trade in?

Something is very seriously rotten in the state of RCI.


Isn't this a VERY common practice in all markets? A different Buy rate then Sell rate....Go to 7/11 and ask them how much they will buy a 2ltr bottle of soda from you for...then look on the shelves and see how much they are selling them for...any gold or precious metal exchange will be the same thing...

The thing is there isn't just ONE Supply/Demand curve, there is the Supply/Demand Curve for the Buy rate and a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT Supply/Demand curve for the Sell rate

I don't get why you guys see this as an evil thing...its basicly a fundamental value of capitalism...You guys ARE capitalists, right?
 

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A retail business buys at one price and sells at another and the difference is their gross profit. They do not charge you a service charge for shopping in their store.
An exchange company is a third party facilitator of exchanges and charges a hefty service charge (exchange fee) for doing so. To double dip and also charge a substantial differential in trading power is just outrageous.

There are MANY MANY 'Club' type store in america that charge a 'service' or 'membership' charge to shop there...they also have a separate buy and sell rate...Look at Concerts, Clubs, Stadiums, they all charge you for entrance and then use a different buy/sell rate for products once you are inside....This is just how the market works her in America Caroline, i think your European or something right? Capitalism is a whole different system then you maybe used to

Then there are the resorts, mostly in overbuilt areas that are overpointed. Why, when there is usually a glut on the market of such weeks, should those weeks be subsidiaed by being given more trading power for a deposit than it takes to trade in?

I think 'overbuilt' is an improperly used term, if an area is overbuilt the resorts wouldn't be able to sustain enough rentals/owners to keep from going out of business, the market would correct itself, the resorts not popular would close and it would no longer be an over built area...Another Capitalistic priciple, i think there maybe a difference in understanding between countries with this...So i don't agree with that term...i'll agree that there are areas that have ALOT of TS availability....BUT, the reason they are able to have that large availability and still stay in business IS that they are in places people REALLY REALLY want to go to...These places have high trading power for that EXACT reason...they are popular...and the large amounts of resorts in that area that are able to maintain a profit are PROOF of that
 

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<<snipped>>

I think 'overbuilt' is an improperly used term, if an area is overbuilt the resorts wouldn't be able to sustain enough rentals/owners to keep from going out of business, the market would correct itself, the resorts not popular would close and it would no longer be an over built area...

Not necessarily so . . . Orlando and Williamsburg ARE overbuilt. That is why you can just about always find rentals for less than the MFs.

The thing that keeps/sustains the resorts is the fact that they have their money up front with the high sales prices . . . and the POA/HOA have the ability to charge as they must in terms of MFs and SAs. Sure some are adversely affected as more and more people are walking away and defaulting, but they still have limited recourse in an attempt to recoup their losses. Until the economy absolutely bottoms out and people in mass, walk away from a TS resort and their obligations, I don't see any of them "going out of business".

Do you have any idea what it would take for a timeshare resort to "close"? That comment to me is naive. Interesting thought, however.
 

timeos2

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.i'll agree that there are areas that have ALOT of TS availability....BUT, the reason they are able to have that large availability and still stay in business IS that they are in places people REALLY REALLY want to go to...These places have high trading power for that EXACT reason...they are popular...and the large amounts of resorts in that area that are able to maintain a profit are PROOF of that
OMG! I actually tend to agree with Ride! There is a reason why some areas have SO many resorts. people want to GO THERE! Many people=many resorts. What a concept. Why are there only a few in other areas? Because demand is so limited that they couldn't survive. So yes, the few that exist do get high utilization (demand) but that's only because there are only say 100 units. If there were 300 or 500 then THOSE areas would be "overbuilt" by that theory as the deposits would far exceed the demand.

There are other factors of course. Like high costs in urban areas so although demand would be great the costs to build, sell & maintain the resorts would be too high. Lack of available land can be a reason as well. So as usual one size doesn't fit all cases but there is a base theory in there (timeshare users want to go to some areas and not as many to other areas) that is a basic truth.

Wow. I didn't think I'd see the day but I have. Of course there are some that won't agree. That's what keep the threads alive and interesting.
 

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Not necessarily so . . . Orlando and Williamsburg ARE overbuilt. That is why you can just about always find rentals for less than the MFs.

The thing that keeps/sustains the resorts is the fact that they have their money up front with the high sales prices . . . and the POA/HOA have the ability to charge as they must in terms of MFs and SAs. Sure some are adversely affected as more and more people are walking away and defaulting, but they still have limited recourse in an attempt to recoup their losses. Until the economy absolutely bottoms out and people in mass, walk away from a TS resort and their obligations, I don't see any of them "going out of business".

Do you have any idea what it would take for a timeshare resort to "close"? That comment to me is naive. Interesting thought, however.

I thought MF's keep/sustain the resorts, and the sales are just for the developers...even so, in a sold out resort, or one of the thousands not under developer control...the sales money wouldn't be an issue...the HOA/POA/BOD are limited with what they can charge...there is a bell curve with all things like that...once they go beyond the top of the bell curve, people will start RUNNING away, no matter the consequences...I really do believe it is impossible to have an overbuilt area...you can have an area built to peak demand, but overbuilt, there is no way the market can sustain that...it just doesn't work with Capitalism

unless you are saying Timeshares work outside of Capitalism? Its an Interesting thought, what market dynamic would you say defines the timesharing relationship?
 
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Ride is right, Capitalism will out. TSes in overbuilt seasonal areas will eventually go under as people age and die(credit reports can't hurt)and no one will take their place. However RCI will take advantage of the situation just like the execs(and union execs) ,in many companies(GM, Xler, Kodak etc) that have gone belly up, have done quit well for themselves.
 

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I have seen nowhere in this thread or elsewhere that substantiates Ride's assertion that HOAs and BODs are evil. A lot of other labels perhaps, but not evil. As for his comments on capitalism and RCI's bid-ask spread, agreed.
 

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...I really do believe it is impossible to have an overbuilt area...you can have an area built to peak demand, but overbuilt, there is no way the market can sustain that...it just doesn't work with Capitalism

unless you are saying Timeshares work outside of Capitalism? Its an Interesting thought, what market dynamic would you say defines the timesharing relationship?

Carolinian partially answered your theory ...

An exchange company is far different than a retail business, and you are comparing apples and oranges.

A retail business buys at one price and sells at another and the difference is their gross profit. They do not charge you a service charge for shopping in their store.

An exchange company is a third party facilitator of exchanges and charges a hefty service charge (exchange fee) for doing so. To double dip and also charge a substantial differential in trading power is just outrageous.

... rant snipped

RCI first creates a "semi-captive" relationship by insinuating itself with the HOA/BOD to become the "default" trading facilitator. Then RCI charges a "membership fee" to individual timeshare owners to access the "playing field"
And then they charge a transaction fee to "take out" an exchange and apparently they also covertly charge a "skim TPU's fee" to "deposit".

And then they steal some prime weeks to rent out.

They nick your wallet 5 times - no wonder they are flourishing:

1. They influence the market value of your timeshare - often for the worse.
2. A direct charge - membership fee.
3. A covert charge - "TPU" or Points "skimming" - the variation from the in and out charge of each system.
4. They then divert the very best deposits into their rental program.
5. They charge members an exchange fee to fight over the left overs.

The bottom line with RCI is the old adage: Don't be jealous because I'm successful - It only shows you wish you had thought of it first.
 
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Beefnot

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Carolinian partially answered your theory ...



RCI first creates a "semi-captive" relationship by insinuating itself with the HOA/BOD to become the "default" trading facilitator. Then RCI charges a "membership fee" to individual timeshare owners to access the "playing field"
And then they charge a transaction fee to "take out" an exchange and apparently they also covertly charge a "skim TPU's fee" to "deposit".

And then they steal some prime weeks to rent out.

They nick your wallet 5 times - no wonder they are flourishing:

1. They influence the market value of your timeshare - often for the worse.
2. A direct charge - membership fee.
3. A covert charge - "TPU" or Points "skimming" - the variation from the in and out charge of each system.
4. They then divert the very best deposits into their rental program.
5. They charge members an exchange fee to fight over the left overs.

The bottom line with RCI is the old adage: Don't be jealous because I'm successful - I shows you only wish you had thought of it first.

Touché. Very fair points. I'm sure II has its issues, but RCI seems extra shady. I will stick with II or the independents.
 

Ridewithme38

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I haven't really seen any evidence of a skim...just the difference between what the company RCI pays in TPU's for a Week and what they Sell in TPU's for a week....this is a common thing in almost all companies, even the subscription big box stores like BJ's, Costco, etc. who also seem to have deals with companies so they don't sell to other big box store, charge a 'membership fee'

Now as for offering weeks that aren't renting internally to the average joe off the street....i'm not a fan of that practice really, but it makes sense that if we don't want it, they wouldn't want to throw away good money, so to speak
 
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