Don't forget VRBO this holiday season...

[Kagehitokiri]

oldkey,
i would also consider villa rentals for long term as well (like a month or two) in cheap ($300/nt) places like Asia.

perrym,
do you still like the one key world model? what do you think of the model of worldwide private residences?

personally, i look at the deposit as a writeoff in order to obtain the discounted nightly rates a club provides on an annual basis. i see it like any other initiation fee. except you can get it back if you resign.

 

[PerryM]

oldkey,
i would also consider villa rentals for long term as well (like a month or two) in cheap places like Asia.

perrym,
do you still like the one key world model? what do you think of the model of worldwide private residences?

personally, i look at the deposit as a writeoff in order to obtain the discounted nightly rates a club provides on an annual basis. i see it like any other initiation fee. except you can get it back if you resign.

WorldMark has THE best DC model out there - bar none.

Will WM ever get into DC's? Who knows but it would take them 1 day to do so if they want.

The WM DC model (current model) is very simple:

1) A developer, like Wyndham, goes out and buys condos. They bring is up to the existing level (like $1 M condo furnishings)

2) Wyndham turns over the deeds to the DC to a Master Trust (debt free) where EVERY WM DC owner owns a fraction of the units

3) Wyndham then sells DC credits and you simply buy what you want. Just need 1 week – that could be 25,000 DC credits or $25k. (No connection to existing WM credits)

4) MF is just a cost per DC credit – could be 10¢ a DC credit

5) You get to resell your DC credits for whatever the market bears – you could also buy resale DC credits

6) Wyndham has a ROFR and can snap up DC credits sold by desperate owners

That’s it – this is EXACTLY what WM does now with $250k condos – simply buy condos worth $1 M. WM would base the number of credits per week based upon rental rates and 1 DC credit = $1.

If Wyndham sells to the wealthy folks then they are shooting for $100k sales at a minimum and resale DC credits would be 50% of that.

The fact that Wyndham could do this so fast should send shivers up the spine of all DCs.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

The fact that Wyndham could do this so fast should send shivers up the spine of all DCs.

isnt saying that like saying they "should" have put all other TS companies out of business?

so you DONT like the one key world model anymore because it doesnt have ownership?

http://www.sherpareport.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=117
seems like a great model to me, in terms of offering a "free" DC. too bad it looks like they wont survive.

 

[Bourne]

Is a master deed enough protection ???

 

[PerryM]

isnt saying that like saying they "should" have put all other TS companies out of business?

so you DONT like the one key world model anymore because it doesnt have ownership?

http://www.sherpareport.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=117
seems like a great model to me, in terms of offering a "free" DC. too bad it looks like they wont survive.

If it sounds too good to be true.......

To me a $1 M DC HAS to charge $125k and $10k MF to each of 8 "investors" and that costs more than a mortgage and related expenses of $1,733 per week for whole ownership.

If a DC is charging less than $1,733 per week then they are using numbers that I can't come up with. "DC numbers" that exist only in DC land.

Is a master deed enough protection ???

Sure, the master trust has the deeds in the name of the club and have NO liens on them. The members own those deeds and the DC could sell them for a profit if it wanted to and disburse the profits back to the owners.

I don't know how the DC industry looks at making profits but I've got to believe that a timeshare organization is going to at least equal the profits that any DC can cook up.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

i dont see how you can equate DCs with fractional ownership...

TS have ridiculous margins because they charge ripoff (WAY above market value) prices to initial buyers. then they have the ability to increase annual fees way faster than CPI.

fractionals, at least high end ones, only seem to be going much above market value recently because of high demand.

questioning the value and profit of DCs is no different than questioning the value and profit of other clubs and things that work like clubs. different people value different things a different amount.

no comment on worldwide private residences LP's numbers? the PDF i linked seemed fairly detailed to me.

 

[vineyarder]

If Wyndham sells to the wealthy folks then they are shooting for $100k sales at a minimum and resale DC credits would be 50% of that.

Wyndham isn't upscale enough to attract 'the wealthy folks'... Three to four star at best.

The fact that Wyndham could do this so fast should send shivers up the spine of all DCs.

Why? Maybe some smaller DCs that need to grow enough to increase destinations offered would have their sales negatively impacted, but how would this hurt ER or PE/UR?

 

[PerryM]

Wyndham isn't upscale enough to attract 'the wealthy folks'... Three to four star at best.



Why? Maybe some smaller DCs that need to grow enough to increase destinations offered would have their sales negatively impacted, but how would this hurt ER or PE/UR?

Wyndham can be whatever Wyndham want's to project - I don't think they would ever use WorldMark for a DC name, they would just create one for the DC market; how about "Ultimate Resorts" (taken) or "Apex Resorts" its just a marketing decision.

 

[vineyarder]

Wyndham can be whatever Wyndham want's to project - I don't think they would ever use WorldMark for a DC name, they would just create one for the DC market

Balderdash. You yourself have stated in previous posts that wealthy folks want a prestigious name brand that their friends know (like a Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton); Wyndham is a name brand, but it isn't a particularly prestigious one, and whatever cute name they pick, it will still be Wyndham, with a 3 to 4 star reputation.

 

[PerryM]

Balderdash. You yourself have stated in previous posts that wealthy folks want a prestigious name brand that their friends know (like a Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton); Wyndham is a name brand, but it isn't a particularly prestigious one, and whatever cute name they pick, it will still be Wyndham, with a 3 to 4 star reputation.

Just click here and you will find a world class company that can easily become a DC.

 

[vineyarder]

Just click here and you will find a world class company that can easily become a DC.

ibid.

Wyndham is BIG, but not prestigious enough to attract HNW individuals. It could certainly enter the DC market, but not in a way that would 'send shivers up the spine' of ER or PE/UR. And yes, Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton could enter the market and be prestigious enough to attract HNW individuals, but we've been over this scenario many times in this forum, and most of us believe that the entry of FS or RC would 'legitimize' the industry, get it more press and attention, and end up helping existing DCs.

As has been said many times here, DCs aren't for everyone, and you are clearly not one of the ones that they are right for... So instead of manufacturing reasons that DCs are doomed to fail, why not just admit that they are great for some, marginal for others, and inappropriate for others (such as yourself)?

 

[PerryM]

ibid.

Wyndham is BIG, but not prestigious enough to attract HNW individuals. It could certainly enter the DC market, but not in a way that would 'send shivers up the spine' of ER or PE/UR. And yes, Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton could enter the market and be prestigious enough to attract HNW individuals, but we've been over this scenario many times in this forum, and most of us believe that the entry of FS or RC would 'legitimize' the industry, get it more press and attention, and end up helping existing DCs.

As has been said many times here, DCs aren't for everyone, and you are clearly not one of the ones that they are right for... So instead of manufacturing reasons that DCs are doomed to fail, why not just admit that they are great for some, marginal for others, and inappropriate for others (such as yourself)?

Wyndham is a well known name and WorldMark model is ideal for DC usage - I have no idea if Wyndham wants to get into this industry.

I stand by my statement that the DC industry is built on a house of cards and that it would not take much for it to implode. Just look at what happened to the founding DC - it ain't no more.....

As to whether a DC is right for me I think I'm a better judge at that than you are.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

So instead of manufacturing reasons that DCs are doomed to fail, why not just admit that they are great for some, marginal for others, and inappropriate for others (such as yourself)?

I personally think the DC market is well past their initial growing pains and have a very healthy future. There are only about 5,000 members worldwide and I consider myself to be one of the lucky few early adopters to enjoy this industry.

I stand by my statement that the DC industry is built on a house of cards and that it would not take much for it to implode. Just look at what happened to the founding DC - it ain't no more.....

As to whether a DC is right for me I think I'm a better judge at that than you are.

T&H is a classic example of what the DC industry initially did wrong. Just like the old time surgeons that thought you could perform surgery without gloves and washing your hands was unnecessary....doctors learned from their mistakes and people died. The DC industry has not killed anyone (that I know of) but some people did get burned by T&H. The DC industry has adapted and learned from the T&H meltdown and is much less risky today. Will there be problems in the future? Perhaps, but the current risk to reward ratio is well worth it for me, so I decided to drink the cool-aid and it really tasks good.

-----------------

Guys.....I know PerryM is skeptical about the DC industry and I enjoy all the "healthy debates" with him, but let's try to keep professional as TUG rules want all of us to be courteous to each other (including myself).

 

[Steamboat Bill]

We rented a house in San Diego Beach area once and when we arrived, the owner was still getting some of his things out of the house. Yuuuuuuuk! This was his full time residence and during the summer he rents some weeks out just to make extra money. It was totally creepy and uncozy. Not A LOT of his stuff was around, but it was enough that I really didn't like it. If this is your full-time residence, PLEASE DO NOT PUT IT ON VRBO.COM. But, if this is a family vacation home and you don't keep a lot of personal effects there, then VRBO.com is a good option. Timeshare your home? That just sounds weird.

I had to post Applegirl’s comments from another thread as it describes her experience with VRBO.

To read the entire thread click here:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=413084#post413084

 

[vineyarder]

As to whether a DC is right for me I think I'm a better judge at that than you are.

Of course you're a better judge of whether or not a DC is right for you...

but with statements like:

"the DC industry is built on a house of cards and it would not take much for it to implode. Just look at what happened to the founding DC - it ain't no more....."

and "This "DC Math" is the reason I am not a member of HCC or any other DC - the numbers never seem to make sense to me"

and "I don't need to loan a DC a lot of money to do this. I can choose from 88,200 homes/condos to rent in just about any location I can dream of"

and "Something tells me that as a renter I can spend much less and stay at the same place as the DC member"

you make it abundantly clear that YOUR OPINION is that a DC isn't right for you!

 

[vivalour]

<< you make it abundantly clear that YOUR OPINION is that a DC isn't right for you!>>

As one of the original --and very enthusiastic -- advocates of DCs, maybe PerryM could still be looking for "reasons" to buy in -- even when he doesn't smell the Ultimate Bargain DC. I'm not a psychologist, but have come to my own conclusion that for some people, buying into a DC is like buying a car -- not always a purely rational choice of how much to spend and what to buy based on pure transportation needs. The "cost per night" will not affect my life one way or the other in the long run -- but I too like to think I am making a "wise" decision with my purchases.

 

[vineyarder]

I'm not a psychologist, but have come to my own conclusion that for some people, buying into a DC is like buying a car -- not always a purely rational choice of how much to spend and what to buy based on pure transportation needs. The "cost per night" will not affect my life one way or the other in the long run -- but I too like to think I am making a "wise" decision with my purchases.

Exactly - the cost per night is just one factor, along with quality, consistency, ease of use, additional services & amenities... intangibles that make it a very personal decision, just like a car. If everyone based their automobile purchase on 'cost per mile' luxury brands wouldn't exist. Bentleys are great cars for some people, if they get 'enough' enjoyment out of them, whereas for me, I'm just not that into cars to spend 4 times what a Mercedes costs. But rather than being 'anti-Bentley', I just accept that a Bentley isn't a good purchase for me...

 

[Kagehitokiri]

[T&H] ain't no more

TERRIBLE business model, practices, no transparency...

But rather than being 'anti-Bentley', I just accept that a Bentley isn't a good purchase for me...

i strongly agree with that mentality.

while there might be "name calling" towards DCs, at least there isnt name calling towards posters here. for example, in the american express forum on flyertalk, all too often people are ranting about how "stupid" people who pay for centurion card are.

vineyarder, id be curious to know what are your thoughts are on >
http://www.sherpareport.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=117

 

[Steamboat Bill]

But rather than being 'anti-Bentley', I just accept that a Bentley isn't a good purchase for me...

It is getting ridiculous with the number of Bently's in Boca Raton. There are at least five of them at my kids school and my kids have already been in three of them. One of the coaches on my kids soccer team has a cool burnt orange one (at least that is what it looks like and I have never seen that color before) and one of my friends has a green ragtop...all the rest are black.

in the american express forum on flyertalk, all too often people are ranting about how "stupid" people who pay for centurion card are.

So are we to assume that you, like a bunch of my friends, carry the black card?

I too like to think I am making a "wise" decision with my purchases.

Me too or is that me three?

 

[Kagehitokiri]

i have not said much about what i value outside of DCs/etc, because i thought it would be kind of offtopic.

definitely agree re "wise decision," i cant imagine there are many people here who dont feel that way..

 

[hipslo]

I just LOVE vrbo - but not for the reasons Perry cites (which may be perfectly valid, I just have no experience with them). I have multiple Marriott Mountainside weeks that I rent out each year (in addition to the one week that I use myself). This year I decided to list them on vrbo, rather than on redweek or myresortnetwork, just to see what would happen. The response has been tremendous - many more hits (1300 to date!!), many more inquiries, rented for more than last year on the timeshare sites, and much earlier in the season. The potential audience that is aware of, and uses, vrbo, as oppopsed to the timeshare rental sites, is HUGE, and they are happy to pay my asking prices when they see what they are getting for it. I explain to them that these are timeshare units but that as far as they are concerned they are essentailly condos with resort amenities, and they are intrigued, and have been grateful to me for making them aware of this particular lodging option.

Long live vrbo!

 

[GregGH]

more photos --more feedback to sort out the bad from the good

I just LOVE vrbo - but not for the reasons Perry cites (which may be perfectly valid, I just have no experience with them). ...snip....Long live vrbo!

I think it was Steamboat Bill that posted a link a while back explaining sites like VBRO --one particular point I found interesting --for VBRO and similar -they charge MORE MONEY the more photo's you list as a renter. So renters cheap out and just don't show us enough to make a good decision. For me - it is a LOT of pictures ( and some positive users feedback like I can see in www.tripadvisor.com )

GEEEEE !!!!

I wish we could get an UPSCALE VBRO --- more photos .... and some independent rating system to sort out the 'poor' from the 'great' locations -- gone are the stains and dirty locations -- more power to the clean and updated locations.

I can wish ...

Greg

ps - I don't get back here as often as I would like to - love to see the objective points that Perry throws out. Personally I have dismissed may DC's with their policy of 'raising prices' to attract new owners - does a 'bubble' have a smell? I long for 're-sale' in this as a way to establish true value.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

VRBO has plenty of very nice stuff. like at four seasons punta mita for example. or setai miami. there are lots of places that are thousands/nt.

"upscale VRBO" examples >

http://www.homesaway.com
http://www.caribbeanway.com
http://www.lacurevillas.com
http://www.villasofdistinction.com

there are a fair number of properties on sites like the last 2 above that are also on VRBO for the same price and everything. the first 2 above though offer local hosts and other value added stuff.

top, full service, from $2K/nt >
http://www.villazzo.com

DHH does have a resale model for their "equity."

personally, id rather wait and pay more, once the DCs im watching have more beachfront properties etc.

 

[hipslo]

I think it was Steamboat Bill that posted a link a while back explaining sites like VBRO --one particular point I found interesting --for VBRO and similar -they charge MORE MONEY the more photo's you list as a renter. So renters cheap out and just don't show us enough to make a good decision. For me - it is a LOT of pictures ( and some positive users feedback like I can see in www.tripadvisor.com )

Exactly right - and I use this to my advantage - I think vrbo gives you 3 pictures included in the price of the listing, with each additional picture costing another $25 (if I recall correctly). Listings are then ranked by number of pictures. So, for an extra $25 (for a full year's listing), my listing has 4 pictures, rather than the standard 3. This ranks me 2nd among all postings for Mountainside in Park City (there are a few dozen listings, I think). Since most potential renters likely dont get past the first few listings, assuming they find something attractive in the first few that they look at, that extre $25 has been very well worth it, and it seems that most folks listing their units are not savvy enough to realize that, surprisingly enough.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

odd.. you are #2 by default, but if you sort by BR, then you drop to near the bottom...

it seems like most of the savvy TS people are on TUG

also wonder why some people on VRBO dont post any pics, if 3 are included for free..