Ditching Windows 10 machines for Windows 11

[billymach4]

My old Laptop does not have TPM 2.0 ---There's your problem. No Windows 11 for me.
Not doing the workaround.


To check if your computer has TPM 2.0, follow these steps:

Method 1: TPM Management Console​

1. Press Windows Key + R to open the Run dialog.
2. Type tpm.msc and press Enter.
3. In the window that opens, look under TPM Manufacturer Information for Specification Version.
   • If it says 2.0, your PC has TPM 2.0.
   • If it says less than 2.0 (e.g., 1.2) or "Compatible TPM cannot be found," your PC either has an older version or TPM is disabled/not present.

 

[jp10558]

I haven't used Windows beyond a work laptop and a unimportant crafting hardware control computer since 2015. I just use the RHEL derivative we use at work - currently Alma Linux 9, probably 10 in the next year or so. So far works better on older hardware, and I can keep the UI basically the same if I want by running XFCE4 and whatever forks when a program changes the UI for whatever reason.

 

[DrQ]

Google is my friend: VMWare has vTPM which emulates the TPM 2.0 hardware,

ETA: Virtualbox also emulates TPM 2.0 with vTPM with rel. 7 and beyond.

 

[DrQ]

The other option is to install a Linux version. I use Linux Mint with Cinnamon, looks and works like Windows, and it will run on ANYTHING! Then install GIMP for photo editing and LibreOffice for MS Office-like programs. While there are millions of Windows viruses, there are less than a handful of ones for Linux.

TS

This will FORCE you to use the web versions of Quicken, TurboTax and the like. These programs only run natively on Windows and MacOS. I prefer to keep these programs local.

 

[DrQ]

Yeah I had a copy of Virtual box running on the 10yr old machine and VMware Workstation.
So fire up Virtualbox with a Linux image and run Win11. That's a wormhole.

Yes, Windows 10 -> Linux -> Windows 11 is not what I would recommend. That is too much abstraction and performance would suck.

Linux -> Windows 11 is the more direct route.

If it were me, I would purchase a compatible SSD big enough to build the Linux system under a dual boot configuration and transfer the Microsoft Windows partition onto the new drive. It's been a while, but I remember that there were utilities that would allow you to extract a VM from a live OS. Google is your friend, search for "convert physical windows 10 to virtual machine"
Then you can:

• Linux -> Windows 10 (original)
• Linux -> Windows 11 (upgraded)
• Linux -> Windows 11 (new)
• Linux -> Linux
• Linux -> ...

You would always have the original drive as a reference.

 

[billymach4]

Yes, Windows 10 -> Linux -> Windows 11 is not what I would recommend. That is too much abstraction and performance would suck.

Linux -> Windows 11 is the more direct route.

If it were me, I would purchase a compatible SSD big enough to build the Linux system under a dual boot configuration and transfer the Microsoft Windows partition onto the new drive. It's been a while, but I remember that there were utilities that would allow you to extract a VM from a live OS. Google is your friend, search for "convert physical windows 10 to virtual machine"
Then you can:

• Linux -> Windows 10 (original)
• Linux -> Windows 11 (upgraded)
• Linux -> Windows 11 (new)
• Linux -> Linux
• Linux -> ...

You would always have the original drive as a reference.

Question? If I do Linux -> Windows 11 I would have to purchase a license?

 

[DrQ]

I just use the RHEL derivative we use at work - currently Alma Linux 9, probably 10 in the next year or so.

Yeah I'm a SunOS -> RHEL veteran for over 30 years. When they kicked the anthill with the demise of CentOS, I migrated to Debian for personal use.

I have a drive that I occasionally load Alma Linux and I maintain a membership as a Red Hat Developer (which is free) and gives me access to a limited number of RHEL installs.

 

[billymach4]

Found this video for some assistance

 

[DrQ]

Question? If I do Linux -> Windows 11 I would have to purchase a license?

Depends. If you can do a P2V (Physical to Virtual) conversion and turn on TPM 2.0 on the VM, you might be able to upgrade your existing server. BUT, OEM licenses are really hardware specific to keep ppl from extracting the media and installing it on another machine, so it may detect the VM and say foul (very likely)

A fresh license from M/S will not have that "feature" and will be more pliable to running in a VM. You can buy it online from Microsoft and then download the Win11 ISO image from M/S.

 

[billymach4]

Depends. If you can do a P2V (Physical to Virtual) conversion and turn on TPM 2.0 on the VM, you might be able to upgrade your existing server. BUT, OEM licenses are really hardware specific to keep ppl from extracting the media and installing it on another machine, so it may detect the VM and say foul (very likely)

A fresh license from M/S will not have that "feature" and will be more pliable to running in a VM. You can buy it online from Microsoft and then download the Win11 ISO image from M/S.

Yeah all of the work arounds are error prone and not really worth my time. In appreciate the advice but I will most likely replace that laptop with a lightweight model we can travel with.

 

[DrQ]

When I retired, I purchased a Dell XPS with an Inte evo with an I9 (20 core ) processor and 32 GB of RAM. My sandbox is a Dell Inspiron with an I7 and 16 GB of RAM.

The Inspiron is a really sweet machine:

Dell Inspiron 14 2 in 1 Laptop 7440 with Intel processor | Dell USA

Shop the Inspiron 14 2 in 1 7440 with latest 14th gen Intel Core processors and DDR5 memory. View on Dell.com.

www.dell.com

I yanked out the 512 GB SSD with Windows and put in a 2 TB SSD. I can boot off external SSD's using the USB port for testing. It is definitely a system that you can use for years to come.

 

[emeryjre]

I appreciate reading about all the work arounds to use Windows 11 on an older machine
I am using my old machine for trading and back testing
Stability, security, and support are critical for me
I have discovered the power of the USB-C ports on laptops and have discovered I can run 4 monitors from a laptop with the right USB-C port and Adapter
Or I can also purchase a docking station from HP and plug in the four monitors as well
My year-old laptop has more processing power than my old computer and is already running windows 11
So that is the way I will go

 

[billymach4]

I appreciate reading about all the work arounds to use Windows 11 on an older machine
I am using my old machine for trading and back testing
Stability, security, and support are critical for me
I have discovered the power of the USB-C ports on laptops and have discovered I can run 4 monitors from a laptop with the right USB-C port and Adapter
Or I can also purchase a docking station from HP and plug in the four monitors as well
My year-old laptop has more processing power than my old computer and is already running windows 11
So that is the way I will go

The TPM 2.0 on new machines definitely adds more elements of Security. Some comments here say that "No important files on my machine", "I store my files in the cloud". That's only one part of the overall vulnerability. Another part is encryption and mitigation while using your browser. And yes VM's can emulate the TPM. But at some point I have to stop the insanity and just get a new machine. I have a day job, don't need another job to play with a 10yr old laptop.

 

[jp10558]

The TPM 2.0 on new machines definitely adds more elements of Security. Some comments here say that "No important files on my machine", "I store my files in the cloud". That's only one part of the overall vulnerability. Another part is encryption and mitigation while using your browser. And yes VM's can emulate the TPM. But at some point I have to stop the insanity and just get a new machine. I have a day job, don't need another job to play with a 10yr old laptop.

While I agree that eventually you should just get a new computer, I don't appreciate any more forcing of e-waste if the older machine is doing the tasks the person bought it for just fine, but MS got a payout from OEMs to force disposal. As far as I'm aware, the TPM is all about physical security (which depending on your treat model can be important) which probably isn't the concern of most posters here. I at least don't get the impression that they're worried about someone stealing their computer and extracting data from it. So, to my mind, most of the TPM stuff isn't that useful. We can also debate the concerns around secure boot, but I still think that for most people, having a patched OS is more important for their online security than secureboot. The reason is while bootkits are a problem, they tend to be IMHO overkill for what general end users would be worried about - you don't have to subvert the boot level kernel to run a keylogger as a user. I still think the concerning attack vectors are pretty much the unsexy stuff of phishing credentials or straight up con jobs getting money voluntarily sent over.

The physical security analogy I can think of is installing metal high security doors while doing nothing about the locks used, the walls the doors are installed in, the windows at ground level and still leaving the cars parked in the driveway with no gates or security cameras. The door may slow down someone hacking at it with an axe (well, a normal door takes a long time to get through that way - there's a funny story from when I was a senior in high school and some weed dealer), but kicking the jam in the right place will still open it, and maybe one of the most valuable things most people have - their car - is still sitting right there to load onto a truck or otherwise steal...

 

[emeryjre]

The push to end support for Windows 10 and force upgrades to hardware capable Windows 11 is a money grab in my opinion
The PC world has many alternatives to using Windows and Microsoft Software
Linux and Chromebooks are the two obvious ones
But so many years after the release of Windows 3.1
People still use Windows
The changes have not been made
The push to upgrade hardware will work
The companies will make more money
The users will go their merry way
Everybody will be happy

 

[DrQ]

I appreciate reading about all the work arounds to use Windows 11 on an older machine
I am using my old machine for trading and back testing
Stability, security, and support are critical for me
I have discovered the power of the USB-C ports on laptops and have discovered I can run 4 monitors from a laptop with the right USB-C port and Adapter
Or I can also purchase a docking station from HP and plug in the four monitors as well
My year-old laptop has more processing power than my old computer and is already running windows 11
So that is the way I will go

Just for giggles and grins, you might take that old laptop and load a version of Linux on it. You might be surprised how it performs under Linux.

I would suggest either Mint Linux or Ubuntu. These two releases have excellent support for Audio Visual codecs which usually drives new users back to Windows.

 

[emeryjre]

During the pandemic, I was gathering old windows laptops and converting them to chrome books for families needing them
So i am familiar with the overhead of windows and the ridiculous computing power needed to keep the windows infrastructure afloat

 

[emeryjre]

Just for giggles and grins, you might take that old laptop and load a version of Linux on it. You might be surprised how it performs under Linux.

I would suggest either Mint Linux or Ubuntu. These two releases have excellent support for Audio Visual codecs which usually drives new users back to Windows.

When you say "how it performs under Linux" are you talking about the old laptop or are you referring to installing Windows and that Windows will perform well

 

[billymach4]

While I agree that eventually you should just get a new computer, I don't appreciate any more forcing of e-waste if the older machine is doing the tasks the person bought it for just fine, but MS got a payout from OEMs to force disposal. As far as I'm aware, the TPM is all about physical security (which depending on your treat model can be important) which probably isn't the concern of most posters here. I at least don't get the impression that they're worried about someone stealing their computer and extracting data from it. So, to my mind, most of the TPM stuff isn't that useful. We can also debate the concerns around secure boot, but I still think that for most people, having a patched OS is more important for their online security than secureboot. The reason is while bootkits are a problem, they tend to be IMHO overkill for what general end users would be worried about - you don't have to subvert the boot level kernel to run a keylogger as a user. I still think the concerning attack vectors are pretty much the unsexy stuff of phishing credentials or straight up con jobs getting money voluntarily sent over.

The physical security analogy I can think of is installing metal high security doors while doing nothing about the locks used, the walls the doors are installed in, the windows at ground level and still leaving the cars parked in the driveway with no gates or security cameras. The door may slow down someone hacking at it with an axe (well, a normal door takes a long time to get through that way - there's a funny story from when I was a senior in high school and some weed dealer), but kicking the jam in the right place will still open it, and maybe one of the most valuable things most people have - their car - is still sitting right there to load onto a truck or otherwise steal...

Planned obsolescence.

 

[jp10558]

Planned obsolescence.

This is more like if we passed a law that you can no longer drive a car that doesn't have collision mitigation on public roads. I.e., when people built many of the TPM 1.1 computers, or computers without a TPM at all, I really doubt they were thinking - well - MS will release an OS in 2022??? that'll make this obsolete. This isn't like when Vista came out and most computers just didn't have the compute power to run it - and in some ways that's the problem - there is very little technically different in Windows 11 from Windows 10 - I'm amazed how many programs and config and scripts and so on work exactly the same on Windows 11. Every other major OS release has always required changes in baseline config scripting etc. Not Win 11. In fact, from what I can tell, the major difference is the GUI parts. There is no reason other than a made up TPM2.0 requirement that you couldn't run Win11 on the same hardware - and people have found ways around that check and proven it.

My points on what I think about the actual security issues means, at least if you agree with me, that the Win11 issue is simply MS deciding to give a bunch of otherwise unnecessary forced hardware upgrades to the OEMs.

 

[emeryjre]

This is more like if we passed a law that you can no longer drive a car that doesn't have collision mitigation on public roads. I.e., when people built many of the TPM 1.1 computers, or computers without a TPM at all, I really doubt they were thinking - well - MS will release an OS in 2022??? that'll make this obsolete. This isn't like when Vista came out and most computers just didn't have the compute power to run it - and in some ways that's the problem - there is very little technically different in Windows 11 from Windows 10 - I'm amazed how many programs and config and scripts and so on work exactly the same on Windows 11. Every other major OS release has always required changes in baseline config scripting etc. Not Win 11. In fact, from what I can tell, the major difference is the GUI parts. There is no reason other than a made up TPM2.0 requirement that you couldn't run Win11 on the same hardware - and people have found ways around that check and proven it.

My points on what I think about the actual security issues means, at least if you agree with me, that the Win11 issue is simply MS deciding to give a bunch of otherwise unnecessary forced hardware upgrades to the OEMs.

Absolutely it is
They have plenty of obtuse language about why it necessary
But
Intel chose to stick with Manufacturing PC chips for Windows
Intel's stock price will show how well that has worked out for the company
Microsoft is giving Intel a boost
Gates figured out you can't go wrong convincing the masses that you have the best mousetrap
Even if you do not

 

[ScoopKona]

Identity theft isn't the only concern. It's far more likely that your unpatched devices are compromised as part of a botnet, and then used for attacking other victims.

They're powered down when not in use. That's why they've lasted so long.

 

[DrQ]

When you say "how it performs under Linux" are you talking about the old laptop or are you referring to installing Windows and that Windows will perform well

I'm talking about just loading Linux on the old machine and see the applications that will give you a full desktop experience that you would experience with Windows. There is a full Linux based office suite that will give you most of the functionality of Office365.

During the pandemic, I was gathering old windows laptops and converting them to chrome books for families needing them
So i am familiar with the overhead of windows and the ridiculous computing power needed to keep the windows infrastructure afloat

The thing that Linux gives you on a laptop over ChromeOS is that the Linux laptop can function fully without the internet. Don't get me wrong, I like Chrome for network based access with trusted applications. I have one that I use for simple browsing.

On my Linux laptop, I have a VM running Ubuntu Studio which gives me a full Audio/Video editing environment as a turnkey:

Ubuntu Studio – A free and open operating system for creative people.

ubuntustudio.org

I'm doing this response on a VM running Mint Linux used exclusively for browsing (I don't browse the web using my Host Ubuntu Linux installation)

I have a Mint Linux VM dedicated just to online shopping where I use my credit cards.

I have a Microsoft Windows 11 VM that is dedicated only the Quicken, TurboTax and online banking/financial transactions.

 

[jp10558]

I'm talking about just loading Linux on the old machine and see the applications that will give you a full desktop experience that you would experience with Windows. There is a full Linux based office suite that will give you most of the functionality of Office365.


The thing that Linux gives you on a laptop over ChromeOS is that the Linux laptop can function fully without the internet. Don't get me wrong, I like Chrome for network based access with trusted applications. I have one that I use for simple browsing.

On my Linux laptop, I have a VM running Ubuntu Studio which gives me a full Audio/Video editing environment as a turnkey:

Ubuntu Studio – A free and open operating system for creative people.

ubuntustudio.org

I'm doing this response on a VM running Mint Linux used exclusively for browsing (I don't browse the web using my Host Ubuntu Linux installation)

I have a Mint Linux VM dedicated just to online shopping where I use my credit cards.

I have a Microsoft Windows 11 VM that is dedicated only the Quicken, TurboTax and online banking/financial transactions.

Ohh, so kinda like a self partially configured QUBES. I don't think I've got the patience for that, but it's of course the safest option I think.

 

[DrQ]

Ohh, so kinda like a self partially configured QUBES.

Interesting. Thanks for the reference.

I may download it and play with it on my sandbox on an external drive. I'm somewhat familiar with Xen as a VM host (I think AWS is based on Xen), but I have never messed with it as all my work experience has been centered around VMWare.