Diamond Resorts Int'l or Diamond Ripoff Int'l

[dougp26364]

Opps, in my above post, I incorrectly posted figures for the Suite's at Polo Towers 2 bedroom unit. Those figures are comparing the Suite's at Polo Towers MF's for 2008 to Hilton and Marriott's MF's for 2009.

These are the corrected figures for The Suite's at Polo Towers for 2009.

Total MF $921.05

Management and administrative fee's $280
Cash reserves $56
Taxes $57

As you can see, it only get's worse with the management/administrative fee's and doesn't get much better with the cash reserve's. When compared to Marriott and Hilton, the true 2009 number look even worse than my original comparison, which was DRI's 2008 numbers to the others 2009 number.

Marriott has management/admin fee's of $122 while HGVC come in just under $109.

So what do you think DRI's management team does that cost's so much more than Marriott or Hilton?

 

[pgnewarkboy]

In my view, it is very hard to make a head to head comparison between Marriott and the DRI Club because they are entirely different kinds of systems. One is a hotel based limited points system and the other is a points based timeshare system. DRI gives me the flexibility to use my points every year. That is what suits me. I like the quality of DRI resorts.

I have zero problems getting the vacations I want from DRI or II. I find the DRI phone help to be excellent. I think their web search could use improvement. They bought back one of my resorts at a good price and they payed all closing fees. There were no difficulties.

I think it is very difficult for a timeshare consumer to actually know the basis for fees and costs whether it be Marriott, DRI, or any other company. You are entitled to think they are too high. I basically view my timeshare ownership as pre-paid vacations. I assumed from the start that no matter who I dealt with I would be to a very large extent at the mercy of big corporations. The mf /vacation equation works for me. I didn't go into timesharing to own vacation resorts. I went into it to take vacations.

I think your posts have been very detailed and offer information to people that might be of use to them. My only point has been that the use of name calling and inflammatory language is not the way to go. Attributing bad motives or unethical/criminal behavior to people or companies is a slippery slope and basically not provable. It is not pleasant or useful to engage in such discourse.

 

[biafrate]

The magnitude of the increase is the point I was making!

I initiated this post to reflect on the magnitude of the increases and the feeble excuses used to justify such gregarious increases.
The essence of the justification was:
"the spiraling prices for oil and fuel, which are escalating the cost of almost every good and service that touches our lives, made this budget season especially challenging."
I concur, the cost of fuel and oil can certainly have direct impact on expenses. The annoyance is with respect to the 49.33 % increase for Management Fees, the 16.35% increase for Gen & Admin Expenses, none of which have the same direct relationship to the cost of fuel or oil. I only make comment suggesting these increases, whether warranted or not, could have been implemented on a progressive basis over several years.....not all at once in the same year.
2007 Mtce Fee $462.53 Replacement Reserve $107.47
2008 Mtce Fee $564.17 Replacement Reserve $149.59
2009 Mtce Fee $677.00 Replacement Reserve $186.99 (over 50% increase over the two years.)


Rather excessive

 

[Sunterra]

I initiated this post to reflect on the magnitude of the increases and the feeble excuses used to justify such gregarious increases.
The essence of the justification was:
"the spiraling prices for oil and fuel, which are escalating the cost of almost every good and service that touches our lives, made this budget season especially challenging."
I concur, the cost of fuel and oil can certainly have direct impact on expenses. The annoyance is with respect to the 49.33 % increase for Management Fees, the 16.35% increase for Gen & Admin Expenses, none of which have the same direct relationship to the cost of fuel or oil. I only make comment suggesting these increases, whether warranted or not, could have been implemented on a progressive basis over several years.....not all at once in the same year.
2007 Mtce Fee $462.53 Replacement Reserve $107.47
2008 Mtce Fee $564.17 Replacement Reserve $149.59
2009 Mtce Fee $677.00 Replacement Reserve $186.99 (over 50% increase over the two years.)
Rather excessive

I don't think that any increase, no matter how big, in Replacement Reserve is unjustified. Developers have notoriously kept this part of MFs low to make MFs more attractive to new buyers which then results in Special Assessments because they didn't reserve/budget realistically. Now the Mgmt fee increases are not realistic.

 

[dougp26364]

In my view, it is very hard to make a head to head comparison between Marriott and the DRI Club because they are entirely different kinds of systems. One is a hotel based limited points system and the other is a points based timeshare system. DRI gives me the flexibility to use my points every year. That is what suits me. I like the quality of DRI resorts.

I have zero problems getting the vacations I want from DRI or II. I find the DRI phone help to be excellent. I think their web search could use improvement. They bought back one of my resorts at a good price and they payed all closing fees. There were no difficulties.

I think it is very difficult for a timeshare consumer to actually know the basis for fees and costs whether it be Marriott, DRI, or any other company. You are entitled to think they are too high. I basically view my timeshare ownership as pre-paid vacations. I assumed from the start that no matter who I dealt with I would be to a very large extent at the mercy of big corporations. The mf /vacation equation works for me. I didn't go into timesharing to own vacation resorts. I went into it to take vacations.

I think your posts have been very detailed and offer information to people that might be of use to them. My only point has been that the use of name calling and inflammatory language is not the way to go. Attributing bad motives or unethical/criminal behavior to people or companies is a slippery slope and basically not provable. It is not pleasant or useful to engage in such discourse.

You may not be able to compare systems but, it is very easy to compare how individual resorts are managed and where the money is going. With DRI managed resorts, it seems obvious to me that to much of the money is going to pay management and administrative costs, which benefits the management company, while sacraficing cash reserves, which benefits the owners.

It's not the cost of the MF that has me ticked off. It's where the money is going. With DRI, the money is not going to the owners benefit, it's going into DRI's pockets. With Marriott and Hilton there is considerably less money going into their pockets while more money is being set aside in cash reserves to protect the owners investment in their timeshare.

I suppose if you're in favor of paying more in management fee's and less in cash reserves for refurbishments, emergancy situations and uprgading your resort, then you'll have no problem with DRI. Personally, I feel that, based upon what others are doing, DRI has management that is priced far above the average. What I want to know is why? What makes them so special that they deserve to be paid twice what Marriott and Hilton charge for the same services? Better yet, how do I get rid of DRI and get someone in who doesn't charge almost $300 per 2 bedroom unit.

 

[dougp26364]

I don't think that any increase, no matter how big, in Replacement Reserve is unjustified. Developers have notoriously kept this part of MFs low to make MFs more attractive to new buyers which then results in Special Assessments because they didn't reserve/budget realistically. Now the Mgmt fee increases are not realistic.

I agree. MF's need to be at adaquate levels to support the resort. This is my MAJOR issue with DRI's management of Polo Towers. Management fee's double that of Marriott and Hilton in the same town (Vegas) and reserve funding that's over 50% less. This poor ratio of Management fee's to cash reserve fee's is upside down and is going to lead to major problems for owners somewhere in the future.

 

[pianodinosaur]

Why so many different resorts in Las Vegas

Dougp26364:

It is quite apparent that you that you do a great deal of research and think things through very carefully. You own at Polo Towers, Marriott Grand Chateau, and HGVC on the Strip. Do you just love Las Vegas? Is there an advantage to owning property with so many different companies?

I own 24,000 points with HGVC all of which are in Orlando. I like Orlando but not every year or every other year. Owning HGVC points is very flexible and has enabled me to cruise and visit other countries in a way that I would not have done prior to entering the wonderful world of timesharing. With HGVC points are points.

Does the Marriott Grand Chateau trade well within the Marriott system? Would ownership at the Marriott Grand Chateau let you book easily at a Marriott TS in Marbella, Maui, or Lake Tahoe? Would DVI let you trade more easily into Malaga, Maui, or St. Marteen?

By the way, I love Las Vegas.

 

[dougp26364]

Dougp26364:

It is quite apparent that you that you do a great deal of research and think things through very carefully. You own at Polo Towers, Marriott Grand Chateau, and HGVC on the Strip. Do you just love Las Vegas? Is there an advantage to owning property with so many different companies?

I own 24,000 points with HGVC all of which are in Orlando. I like Orlando but not every year or every other year. Owning HGVC points is very flexible and has enabled me to cruise and visit other countries in a way that I would not have done prior to entering the wonderful world of timesharing. With HGVC points are points.

Does the Marriott Grand Chateau trade well within the Marriott system? Would ownership at the Marriott Grand Chateau let you book easily at a Marriott TS in Marbella, Maui, or Lake Tahoe? Would DVI let you trade more easily into Malaga, Maui, or St. Marteen?

By the way, I love Las Vegas.

There's no advantage. It just sort of worked out that way.

We started with Polo Towers because we fell in love with Vegas. We purchased a second unit there because we were traveling to Vegas 3 and 4 times per year at one point. Polo Towers was starting to lag behind what others were doing and we ended up buying into Hilton and later into the Marriott resort. We bought those because of the quality and value and, we started exchanging our Polo Towers units for other locations and into other timeshare systems with better quality and/or better amenities.

MGC has exchanged reasonably well. We've used our 1 bedroom LO to trade back into MGC, to exchange into a 2 bedroom at Barony Beach Club for May, to exchange for a 1 bedroom Marriott's Custom House in Boston for May and we've exchange the master suite 2 bedroom unit (we own a 3 bedroom LO) for a March week at Newport Coast Villa's.

We bought into HGVC becasue we loved the flexablity and the quality. Originally we purchased at the LV Hilton and had a 5000 point EOY contract. We later upgraded to an EY 7,000 point contract at the newer LV Strip location. I just wish Hilton would build in more diverse locations.

 

[biafrate]

I could not agree more........but within reason

I don't think that any increase, no matter how big, in Replacement Reserve is unjustified. Developers have notoriously kept this part of MFs low to make MFs more attractive to new buyers which then results in Special Assessments because they didn't reserve/budget realistically. Now the Mgmt fee increases are not realistic.

I understand the need for increases in both maintenance fees and Replacement Reserves. I am fine with the reserve. I have a difficult time when the maintenance fee is reassessed by 49% and see the Management fees are the main contributing factor. It is not oil and fuel. That is just a "smoke and mirrors" attempt to get the owners to buy in.

I am the owner of seven timeshares, all of which are rated Gold Crown and now thanks to DRI, my Scottsdale Villa Mirage ranks highest in cost but rest assured the SVM ranks lowest in value.

 

[dougp26364]

I understand the need for increases in both maintenance fees and Replacement Reserves. I am fine with the reserve. I have a difficult time when the maintenance fee is reassessed by 49% and see the Management fees are the main contributing factor. It is not oil and fuel. That is just a "smoke and mirrors" attempt to get the owners to buy in.

I am the owner of seven timeshares, all of which are rated Gold Crown and now thanks to DRI, my Scottsdale Villa Mirage ranks highest in cost but rest assured the SVM ranks lowest in value.

I'm with you on this. Marriott hits me with some pretty big MF's but, a good portion of those MF's is in the cash reserve. I look at the cash reserve as proteting my investment in my resort and I really don't mind paying that so long as the resort management isn't getting carried away with amenities that aren't used by a majority of the owners.

However, my DRI management/administrative fee's are by far the highest of my 7 timeshares. What I want to know is WHY are they so high? If I was receiving the very best of the best in service and value, I might not rant about this so much. But DRI hasn't provided anything close to the best service out of the timeshares I own. In fact, they're at the bottom when you consider the number of errors they've made and the difficulty I've had getting those errors corrected.......if they can be corrected at all.

There is NO WAY that DRI can justify management fee's that are 100% higher (and more in most cases) than any of my other timeshares. To through salt in the wound, DRI's cash reserves are the lowest of all the timeshares we own.

On the surface, the fee's might be the same but, all one has to do is look at the numbers breakdown to see that DRI is ripping off it's owners by sliding far more money than is necessary into management/administrative cost and balancing that by taking away from what should be going into cash reserves.

I tell you what, if DRI would balance those numbers I'm seeing, say putting $150 into cash reserves and only charging $180 in management fee's (this would still keep the MF at the same level), I wouldn't be complaining or crying that owners are getting ripped off by DRI. There's NO WAY DRI can tell me it can't be done. I have to perfect examples with Marriott and Hilton that would prove them wrong. Same city and, in Marriott's case, same location in the same city. They can't lie to me and tell me that the cost of keeping good employee's is that high in Vegas.

 

[nightnurse613]

I still haven't received my paper verification of fees but I see my Ridge on Sedona is up more than a couple of hundred dollars. I expected it to go up since they had a problem at the main pool site which required total reconstruction however, I was surprised to see DRI also include it in their justification for THE Club fee increases!:annoyed: I am braced since I have received the Fall 2008 Dear DRI US Collection Member letter and the Dear Valued Member of THE Club! Yes, I am already feeling very valued!

 

[biafrate]

I see a pattern forming with DRI

Huge Maintenance Fee increases for everyone.
Wow, talk about gouging!

 

[dougp26364]

Huge Maintenance Fee increases for everyone.
Wow, talk about gouging!

Not so much huge MF increases but huge Admin/Management fee increases.

If the large increases had mostly been in cash reserves for the properties, something that actually protects owners from future needs seen and unforseen, I wouldn't be so upset. Instead DRI's admin/management fee's are significantly higher than even Marriott's. Something I find totally unacceptable and, IMO, gouging the owners.

DRI is certainly a resort management group I would advise people to stay far away from. Unfortunately, DRI was the first timeshare's we purchased and now appear to be stuck with them. That is unless I decide to dump them for $1 on E-bay.

 

[rfrome]

Getting out of The Club

We don't need to belong to The Club along with Diamond Resorts, if we have means to exchange through other organizations, e.g. RCI, II. Since I have an RCI membership and three other timeshares, I am canceling my Club membership and will forego paying $255+ per year for an exchange system I don't need.

 

[dougp26364]

We don't need to belong to The Club along with Diamond Resorts, if we have means to exchange through other organizations, e.g. RCI, II. Since I have an RCI membership and three other timeshares, I am canceling my Club membership and will forego paying $255+ per year for an exchange system I don't need.

The only reason for belonging to THE Club is to increase the opportunity for exchange through I.I. and, to offeset the increased MF's by using unused points to pay down the MF's.

For instance, in our case we could use 13,000 or our 26,500 points for two 2 bedroom exchanges. We could then use the remaining 13,500 points to reduce our MF's by $675. Even with the $255 fee we're still saving $420.

Or, we could use those 26,500 points for four 2 bedroom exchanges. If we did that I suppose one could look at the MF's plus THE Club fee's and say you paying the average amount for 4 units.

However, it still doesn't excuse DRI for charging double what most management companies charge to manage a resort. They're still sticking it to their owners pretty darn well. Eventually I look for even these benefits to be erroded away by greedy management.

 

[Sunterra]

We don't need to belong to The Club along with Diamond Resorts, if we have means to exchange through other organizations, e.g. RCI, II. Since I have an RCI membership and three other timeshares, I am canceling my Club membership and will forego paying $255+ per year for an exchange system I don't need.

What is the underlying ownership with DRI? What it is dictates what you may be able to do with it when it's out of THE Club.

The only reason for belonging to THE Club is to increase the opportunity for exchange through I.I. and, to offeset the increased MF's by using unused points to pay down the MF's.

For instance, in our case we could use 13,000 or our 26,500 points for two 2 bedroom exchanges. We could then use the remaining 13,500 points to reduce our MF's by $675. Even with the $255 fee we're still saving $420.

Or, we could use those 26,500 points for four 2 bedroom exchanges. If we did that I suppose one could look at the MF's plus THE Club fee's and say you paying the average amount for 4 units.

However, it still doesn't excuse DRI for charging double what most management companies charge to manage a resort. They're still sticking it to their owners pretty darn well. Eventually I look for even these benefits to be erroded away by greedy management.

Reducing your MFs, which for DRUSC is ~10¢, with a 5¢ credit per point is pretty silly :hysterical: . Take more vacations.

 

[dougp26364]

Reducing your MFs, which for DRUSC is ~10¢, with a 5¢ credit per point is pretty silly :hysterical: . Take more vacations.

Well let's see, I currently take 1 weeks vacation every other month or 6 per year. At this time this is the most I can manage to take off where I work. I suppose if I were retired, I could take more vacations but, that's not possible now. So you suggestion to take more vacations is just a little bit on the ridiculous side for us.

Presently we own, as previously mentioned, 7 timeshares. We do not stay at Polo Towers anymore since we also own at HGVC and Marriott, which IMHO are nicer resorts. Polo Towers has become exchange units for us.

You're also assuming that we are in the trust, which we are not. So your assumption about 10 cents per point is a little off.

Yes selling points back at 5 cents per points is a RIP OFF. However, since if I used all 26,500 points I'd have to be capable of taking 9 weeks off per year, I think it's a better deal to just sell back the pionts I can't use.

Now, what I'd REALLY like would be for DRI to honor the buy back deal they made with me to purchase BOTH of my Polo Towers units and I'd be done with them completely. However, DRI is not exactly good on their word and they backed out of the deal. Not only are they not good on their word, they didn't even have the decency to let me know they weren't going to follow through on their written comitement to buy back these units. I had to literaly HUNT THEM DOWN to get any information out of them.

So, for the time being I'll take my two weeks exchange and sell back what I can't use to reduce the MF's and attempt to keep them at a reasonable level while still getting the two weeks vacation I can manage to use. One way or another, I'd still only be using these units for 2 weeks vacaiton. I might as well get those 2 weeks AND reduce my MF's at the same time.

Now, if you'd like to buy these units from me at the price DRI had agreed upon, I'd be happy to sell them to you and then you could take more vacations. I'd do just fine with the remaining 5 timeshares we own plus, I could use that money to buy a 6th timeshare with a quality management company.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

Consult an attorney if DRI backed out on a signed deal. If you didn't have a signed deal you PROBABLY had no deal at all. I would still, however, consult with an attorney on that to be sure.

 

[KathyA]

More on maintenance fees

The only reason for belonging to THE Club is to increase the opportunity for exchange through I.I. and, to offeset the increased MF's by using unused points to pay down the MF's. QUOTE]

Actually, there may be another reason. I believe that DRI is trying to force everyone to convert to The Club. I own two high-season weeks at Flamingo Resort in St. Martin. Last year they raised the maintenance fees over 20%. This year they have raised them over 30% more! They are now asking $1013 per week maintenance fees for my sleep-4 studio! This in spite of the fact that the resort is in "good" financial condition. I have inquired as to what the maintenance fee would be if I converted to points (The Club). The maintenance fees for the same two weeks would be $190 (base), $225 (club dues), and $1092 for 10,500 points. That equals $1507, which is $519 cheaper than I am paying for my two weeks now. That also includes 1500 more points than my two weeks are worth now (currently valued at 4500 points per week). The cost for converting to The Club is $4300 for those extra 1500 points--a condition of conversion. I think I'm just going to sell my two weeks for super cheap to unload them as this is ridiculous.

 

[dougp26364]

Consult an attorney if DRI backed out on a signed deal. If you didn't have a signed deal you PROBABLY had no deal at all. I would still, however, consult with an attorney on that to be sure.

Nothing signed. Everything was via E-mail. If I had actually received the signed contracts I would be forcing them through whatever channels were avialble to compete the transaction.

 

[dougp26364]

The only reason for belonging to THE Club is to increase the opportunity for exchange through I.I. and, to offeset the increased MF's by using unused points to pay down the MF's. QUOTE]

Actually, there may be another reason. I believe that DRI is trying to force everyone to convert to The Club. I own two high-season weeks at Flamingo Resort in St. Martin. Last year they raised the maintenance fees over 20%. This year they have raised them over 30% more! They are now asking $1013 per week maintenance fees for my sleep-4 studio! This in spite of the fact that the resort is in "good" financial condition. I have inquired as to what the maintenance fee would be if I converted to points (The Club). The maintenance fees for the same two weeks would be $190 (base), $225 (club dues), and $1092 for 10,500 points. That equals $1507, which is $519 cheaper than I am paying for my two weeks now. That also includes 1500 more points than my two weeks are worth now (currently valued at 4500 points per week). The cost for converting to The Club is $4300 for those extra 1500 points--a condition of conversion. I think I'm just going to sell my two weeks for super cheap to unload them as this is ridiculous.

The MF's for the Trust may, in some cases, be less expensive. However, once an owner converts to the trust, they give up their deed and voting rights (ie: control) to the trust manager (ie: DRI). There are more cases right now where the MF is still less than the trust fee's.

Trust fee's have been reported as going up 25% this year. Most DRI resorts have had double digit increases for the last two years and THE Club has gone from $155 one year ago to $235 billed this year. Most of the increases that I'm seeing are NOT for the benefit of the resort owners but are management/administrative fee increases. So it doesn't matter how good of financial position your resort might be in, it matters how much of your money DRI wants to manage/control your resort.

If/when DRI get enough unit weeks into the trust to control the voting, owners will no longer have any say in how their resorts are run, who manages them or how much they are billed. They'll simply be along for the ride.

 

[JRS]

The only reason for belonging to THE Club is to increase the opportunity for exchange through I.I. and, to offeset the increased MF's by using unused points to pay down the MF's. QUOTE]

Actually, there may be another reason. I believe that DRI is trying to force everyone to convert to The Club. I own two high-season weeks at Flamingo Resort in St. Martin. Last year they raised the maintenance fees over 20%. This year they have raised them over 30% more! They are now asking $1013 per week maintenance fees for my sleep-4 studio! This in spite of the fact that the resort is in "good" financial condition. I have inquired as to what the maintenance fee would be if I converted to points (The Club). The maintenance fees for the same two weeks would be $190 (base), $225 (club dues), and $1092 for 10,500 points. That equals $1507, which is $519 cheaper than I am paying for my two weeks now. That also includes 1500 more points than my two weeks are worth now (currently valued at 4500 points per week). The cost for converting to The Club is $4300 for those extra 1500 points--a condition of conversion. I think I'm just going to sell my two weeks for super cheap to unload them as this is ridiculous.

KathyA:

I believe you have it nailed. I am also an owner at Flamingo and after last year saw this coming. Looked at ebay and there are more than a couple units for sale around $ 100 - which are still there. Why sugar coat it ? These are greedy crooks .... I have been with Sunterra for over 10 yrs, owned some of their stock, watched what happened thru the bankruptcy/reorganization and as usual, the crooks (whoops I mean board and management) survived, the attorneys and "expert witnesses" got their payoff and we have a new mgmt company trying to take advantage of the masses - with their new vision ..... They'll get the weeks in some manner - but I will certainly vow not to do ANY BUSINESS with their organization - EVER .......

 

[lv_maui]

DRI is not a rip off but ............

I do not think that DRI is a rip off, because what they are trying to do is to get maintenance fees in line with where they should have been in the past. Old Sunterra liked to keep fees low for sales purposes.

But in reading TUG posts etc., what I do think is absolutely wrong is the allocation of certain office costs to the HOA's and Trust. So, not only do you pay the standard management fees but probably a split of HR costs, software expenses, etc. I think that is where you will find that DRI does not compare with other competitive properties.

Now that I say that I wonder if we pay for some of the DRI corporate jet costs like Wall Street has.

The Trust was created for many good reasons. 2 of which are that they stay in control of HOA's for perpetuity and second, they can get back the points with merely mailing a letter. Good for DRI but not good for members.