[Crystal Shores] Maintenance fees up 10% again

[hcarman]

Well, we got our proposed budget statement today via e-mail. Maintenance fees at Crystal Shores have gone up another 10% bringing our annual maintenance costs to almost $1600. It is very hard to justify. That works out to an average of $225 per night for the maintenance fees, so what happened to the $40,000 + dollars a lot of people paid for this place?

Since we are local - we often stay an extra night or two on one end of our owner's week. The past few years we have seen government rates advertised for $150 a night - for any State or Federal government employee. This is cheaper than the amount we pay per night for maintenance fees! Effectively, our maintenance fees increased this year $140 or one night at the government rate. Also, with our Marriott Credit Card and owner's discount, we have often seen rates in the mid $200s - so breaking even with the amount we pay per night in maintenance fees.

We had a discussion with Marriott as to why Destination Club owners can buy the amount of points to get into this place for less than what we paid pre-construction. Marriott just said the maintenance fees on that many points would be more - that was their way of explaining it away. I calculated the amount of points it would take to get in for the week we own and found the maintenance fees would only be $1380 - so $200 less than what the legacy owners are paying per year. Where does this end? Our other properties are not going up this much - even the Marriott. Our Hyatt didn't go up much, nor did our Bluegreen property.

We understand Marriott has a certain standard they want to uphold - but they also need to understand that these are tough times for many of their owners - a 10% increase every year is like raking us over the coals. Every year it makes less and less sense to own here. No wonder bad debt went up. And loss prevention went up again - but Marriott refuses to finish the features of the resort that would allow them to cut down on the security needed.

I am just having a hard time stomaching this tonight. I agree more and more with those that say "why buy when you can rent". Even our Marriott sales talk indicated cost of lodging goes up only 7% a year - apparently not at Crystal Shores. As Marriott developer subsidy disappears - they really should find ways to keep costs more level.

Sorry for the rant and rave, but just wondering what others are finding at their properties. And how others justify maintenance costs as high as a Marriott rental rate for the same exact room, and higher than the Desitnation Points members.

 

[FractionalTraveler]

Well, we got our proposed budget statement today via e-mail. Maintenance fees at Crystal Shores have gone up another 10% bringing our annual maintenance costs to almost $1600. It is very hard to justify. That works out to an average of $225 per night for the maintenance fees, so what happened to the $40,000 + dollars a lot of people paid for this place?

Since we are local - we often stay an extra night or two on one end of our owner's week. The past few years we have seen government rates advertised for $150 a night - for any State or Federal government employee. This is cheaper than the amount we pay per night for maintenance fees! Effectively, our maintenance fees increased this year $140 or one night at the government rate. Also, with our Marriott Credit Card and owner's discount, we have often seen rates in the mid $200s - so breaking even with the amount we pay per night in maintenance fees.

We had a discussion with Marriott as to why Destination Club owners can buy the amount of points to get into this place for less than what we paid pre-construction. Marriott just said the maintenance fees on that many points would be more - that was their way of explaining it away. I calculated the amount of points it would take to get in for the week we own and found the maintenance fees would only be $1380 - so $200 less than what the legacy owners are paying per year. Where does this end? Our other properties are not going up this much - even the Marriott. Our Hyatt didn't go up much, nor did our Bluegreen property.

We understand Marriott has a certain standard they want to uphold - but they also need to understand that these are tough times for many of their owners - a 10% increase every year is like raking us over the coals. Every year it makes less and less sense to own here. No wonder bad debt went up. And loss prevention went up again - but Marriott refuses to finish the features of the resort that would allow them to cut down on the security needed.

I am just having a hard time stomaching this tonight. I agree more and more with those that say "why buy when you can rent". Even our Marriott sales talk indicated cost of lodging goes up only 7% a year - apparently not at Crystal Shores. As Marriott developer subsidy disappears - they really should find ways to keep costs more level.

Sorry for the rant and rave, but just wondering what others are finding at their properties. And how others justify maintenance costs as high as a Marriott rental rate for the same exact room, and higher than the Desitnation Points members.

We got ours too. I didn't really see anything major out of line. Many of the increases were offset by some decreases. Yes, overall it is up about 10%.

$225/night is about right for an average that Marriott rents their units at CS. I don't think we will ever see those government rates again since the remaining units were placed into the Trust.

I just checked and the Government rate is averaging $218/night for the next 3 months of limited availability.

I think the world has changed significantly since we purchased at CS pre-construction. My house is also worth less today than in 2006.

If you have a portfolio of legacy units and/or DC points then it might make sense to look at readjusting your portfolio with weeks that are less costly from a MF perspective.

Also, Marriott is buying back weeks right now if you are interested in taking a large loss in return for no MF in the future. Just a consideration.

I agree that strategic renting of DC points is very advantageous.

 

[bogey21]

One of the reasons I bailed on Marriott years ago was the steady excalation of MFs. I went with carefully selected HOA controlled Independents whose MFs were in the $400 - $450 range at the time. These have increased over the years but at rates of increase way less than Marriott's increases. And yes, in making the move I accepted a lot less than Marriott quality. In some cases this was offset by better locations.

George

 

[MOXJO7282]

One of the reasons I bailed on Marriott years ago was the steady excalation of MFs. I went with carefully selected HOA controlled Independents whose MFs were in the $400 - $450 range at the time. These have increased over the years but at rates of increase way less than Marriott's increases. And yes, in making the move I accepted a lot less than Marriott quality. In some cases this was offset by better locations.

George

I have not seen that HOA controlled Independents manage MFs increases any better than Marriott or other name brand resorts. I can also say for us who want a resort type experience on the beach I think when you compare most Marriotts vs Independent you get better value from Marriott in terms of amenities vs cost when you looking for what we like which is also what most others like, hence the huge popularity.

Yes independents are much cheaper upfront and do have slightly less MFs but that doesn't mean they are better values.

 

[Quadmaniac]

Well, we got our proposed budget statement today via e-mail. Maintenance fees at Crystal Shores have gone up another 10% bringing our annual maintenance costs to almost $1600. It is very hard to justify. That works out to an average of $225 per night for the maintenance fees, so what happened to the $40,000 + dollars a lot of people paid for this place?

The $40,000+ went mostly to the developer as profit. If the fees are unreasonable, why not just get out of it and try to buy a good Marriott trader with lower MF so you can trade into your existing Marriotts if those are the ones you like visiting ? It is the ongoing MF which is the true cost, so change up your ownership to something more reasonable.

 

[SueDonJ]

Moderator Note:
We'll be reviving the MF information in the sticky but will be using only the actual billed amounts and not any pre-released estimates. We'll follow the "usual" set-up on this board - discussions about the various resort MF's will remain in separate threads but when the bills start coming out, an "official" 2013 MF thread containing only the specific billed amounts will be in place.

************
Are there many resorts where estimated MF's are released prior to the Annual Meeting? Neither of mine do; we get the actual bills later in December after the Annual Budget reports are approved.

hcarman, I think the only other resort MF's which have been discussed yet this year are in this When do MFs starting leaking out? thread.

I understand your frustrations with Crystal Shores and would feel the same way if I owned in an incomplete resort. Based on your past threads you've certainly put some effort into asking specific questions and I'm sure it doesn't help that Marriott and the resort personnel don't give you any answers.

I think what you found with the DC Points MF's for various intervals being less than that Week's MF's will occur in many instances, especially where there are true seasonal variances. IMO like Quadmaniac says, it's another reason to gauge if what you're paying is worth what you're getting.

 

[hcarman]

Moderator Note:
We'll be reviving the MF information in the sticky but will be using only the actual billed amounts and not any pre-released estimates. We'll follow the "usual" set-up on this board - discussions about the various resort MF's will remain in separate threads but when the bills start coming out, an "official" 2013 MF thread containing only the specific billed amounts will be in place.

************
Are there many resorts where estimated MF's are released prior to the Annual Meeting? Neither of mine do; we get the actual bills later in December after the Annual Budget reports are approved.

hcarman, I think the only other resort MF's which have been discussed yet this year are in this When do MFs starting leaking out? thread.

I understand your frustrations with Crystal Shores and would feel the same way if I owned in an incomplete resort. Based on your past threads you've certainly put some effort into asking specific questions and I'm sure it doesn't help that Marriott and the resort personnel don't give you any answers.

I think what you found with the DC Points MF's for various intervals being less than that Week's MF's will occur in many instances, especially where there are true seasonal variances. IMO like Quadmaniac says, it's another reason to gauge if what you're paying is worth what you're getting.

Thanks. I would agree and I am trying to gauge whether it is worth what I am paying each year (not even considering the upfront cost) to remain an owner at this property. If rooms are being rented by Marriott - not just during the off seeason - for the same price or less than what we pay for maintenance fees (on a per daily basis), not sure I do see the value in continuing. The only argument some might bring up would be availbility is better as an owner. But is that worth all the upfront cost? Several months ago we did receive a room rate of only $150 for the two bedroom. Maintenance fees have continued to go up about 10% a year and room rates have stayed fairly steady - so at this rate the gap will increase.

I agree with the posters that said this resort was built during a peak time and right before the real estate crash. However, I am not sure I understand how that would correlate to rising maintenance fees. In fact, property taxes have gone down drastically in FL - so that should only help. Hate to see how much the fees will go up if the taxes go up. Maybe it is because a smaller owner base than originally proposed is paying for facilities that have been built?

It is a beautiful property and not easy to trade into. However, with the Destination Points program it should make it much easier for Marriott owners to get in - as about half the property is in the Trust. I do tend to assess value on my properties. This was our first property and it did leave a pretty bad taste in our mouths. We do feel we get much better value at our other properties. The maintenance fees don't climb as much, Canyon Villas is a lock off so it can generate multiple weeks for the same maintenance fee, etc.
I will keep an eye out for the maintenance fee chart when it comes out to compare.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[timeos2]

I have not seen that HOA controlled Independents manage MFs increases any better than Marriott or other name brand resorts. I can also say for us who want a resort type experience on the beach I think when you compare most Marriotts vs Independent you get better value from Marriott in terms of amenities vs cost when you looking for what we like which is also what most others like, hence the huge popularity.

Yes independents are much cheaper upfront and do have slightly less MFs but that doesn't mean they are better values.

What independent resorts are you looking at? Our two have averaged 2% and 4.5% over the past 5 years. Both have either finished or have major unit renovations & upgrades underway. Both got granite counter tops, new flooring (tile & carpet), furnishings, soft goods, electronics and more. Equal or better than anything Marriott does without the excessive overhead and management fees. Both are under $1000 in 2013 - one is smaller units & it is under $560. Both have healthy reserves. Independents with good HOA Boards don't need high priced or named management to be great & as mentioned often in premiere locations.

 

[jlf58]

Using your math, they built it for free LOL. Numbers are more like 40% marketing, 60% costs. That said I think MVCI dues have gotten way out of hand and glad I bailed on them when I did. I travel mid season and my 2 free weeks and total $1400 dues which includes exchange fees will get me 2 Marriott's a year if I want. I basically pay $100 a night with zero out of pocket to buy them.

The $40,000+ went mostly to the developer as profit. If the fees are unreasonable, why not just get out of it and try to buy a good Marriott trader with lower MF so you can trade into your existing Marriotts if those are the ones you like visiting ? It is the ongoing MF which is the true cost, so change up your ownership to something more reasonable.

 

[Quadmaniac]

Using your math, they built it for free LOL. Numbers are more like 40% marketing, 60% costs. That said I think MVCI dues have gotten way out of hand and glad I bailed on them when I did. I travel mid season and my 2 free weeks and total $1400 dues which includes exchange fees will get me 2 Marriott's a year if I want. I basically pay $100 a night with zero out of pocket to buy them.

Well when I look at it $40K x 52 weeks = $2,080,000. I don't remember too many 12-1400 sq ft 2 br condos costing $2M - I would bet their cost is more like 250,000-300,000 range maybe, so yes the majority of it went to profit.

 

[bogey21]

I think when you compare most Marriotts vs Independent you get better value from Marriott in terms of amenities vs cost ........Yes independents are much cheaper upfront and do have slightly less MFs but that doesn't mean they are better values.

As to amenities and luxury, I agree. But for the money give me a well located, well run HOA controlled Independent anytime. Initial cost will be less than 25 cents on the dollar and MFs less than 50 cents on the dollar when compared to Marriott costs.

George

 

[FractionalTraveler]

Here you go:

On South Beach:

http://www.continuumsouthbeachrealty.com/continuum.php?id=2

1-BR 1200 sq.ft. starting at $1,395,000
2, 3, & 4-BR to 4973 sq.ft. $35,000,000 take you pick.

These are Oceanfront/View units.

On Marco Island:

http://www.marcorealtysource.com/search_madeira
2-BR, $1,695,000 to $15,000,000

These units are less than .25mile from Crystal Shores

 

[jlf58]

sorry but you would be wrong. I didn't pull that 40% out of the air, thats basic the formula for selling TS. FYI, profit is about 15% of that 40%, the other 25% goes to commision and marketing..

Well when I look at it $40K x 52 weeks = $2,080,000. I don't remember too many 12-1400 sq ft 2 br condos costing $2M - I would bet their cost is more like 250,000-300,000 range maybe, so yes the majority of it went to profit.

 

[Quadmaniac]

Here you go:

On South Beach:

http://www.continuumsouthbeachrealty.com/continuum.php?id=2

1-BR 1200 sq.ft. starting at $1,395,000
2, 3, & 4-BR to 4973 sq.ft. $35,000,000 take you pick.

These are Oceanfront/View units.

On Marco Island:

http://www.marcorealtysource.com/search_madeira
2-BR, $1,695,000 to $15,000,000

These units are less than .25mile from Crystal Shores

Hmmm did you happen to notice that the $1.3-$1.6 M is for 2600-3300 square feet on Marcos Island you put the link for ? Is the Marriott the same level as these residences ? Probably not. I am not familiar with Marcos Island specifically, but if they are selling for about 500 sq/ft, a Marriott 1200-1400 sq foot might be worth $600-700K, so maybe the cost to build is $400-450K.

You are not comparing apples to apples. I was referring to COST TO BUILD not retail prices. From your links, look at the finishes of the units compared to Marriott. I see marble floors in many of the suits. I have never been to Crystal Shores, but I would assume that Marriott did not have marble floors in their units.

If you are comparing retail prices to retail prices, Marriott is saying it is $2.08M for one of their 1200 sq foot units vs. $1.3-$1.6M for 2600-3300 sq ft and marble floors and higher finishing ? Does something seem off here ?

In any case, the point I was trying to make that the $40K is long gone for cost to build and HUGE profit, so if the maintenance is getting crazy, get out of it and get somewhere else so you can trade in. It doesn't make sense to own when you can rent for the same amount or less.

 

[FractionalTraveler]

Hmmm did you happen to notice that the $1.3-$1.6 M is for 2600-3300 square feet on Marcos Island you put the link for ? Is the Marriott the same level as these residences ? Probably not. I am not familiar with Marcos Island specifically, but if they are selling for about 500 sq/ft, a Marriott 1200-1400 sq foot might be worth $600-700K, so maybe the cost to build is $400-450K.

You are not comparing apples to apples. I was referring to COST TO BUILD not retail prices. From your links, look at the finishes of the units compared to Marriott. I see marble floors in many of the suits. I have never been to Crystal Shores, but I would assume that Marriott did not have marble floors in their units.

If you are comparing retail prices to retail prices, Marriott is saying it is $2.08M for one of their 1200 sq foot units vs. $1.3-$1.6M for 2600-3300 sq ft and marble floors and higher finishing ? Does something seem off here ?

In any case, the point I was trying to make that the $40K is long gone for cost to build and HUGE profit, so if the maintenance is getting crazy, get out of it and get somewhere else so you can trade in. It doesn't make sense to own when you can rent for the same amount or less.

I don’t understand why so many folks think that builders make HUGE profits.

I am very familiar with Marco Island as we have been going there for 20 years, and can say that $2M is a low average for most oceanfront condos on the island. Marriott had to make huge concessions to the Marco Island City Council just to allow the permits which took close to 5 years to secure.

In the height of the recession only 20-30% of the property was sold. I actually think Marriott took a huge loss on this property.

I also own at CS and in my opinion, it’s on par with most properties of similar size, amenities, and decor.

Please visit the Island and CS so you can experience it for yourself before making wild assumptions and random comments on what builders profits are.

 

[Quadmaniac]

I don’t understand why so many folks think that builders make HUGE profits.

I am very familiar with Marco Island as we have been going there for 20 years, and can say that $2M is a low average for most oceanfront condos on the island. Marriott had to make huge concessions to the Marco Island City Council just to allow the permits which took close to 5 years to secure.

In the height of the recession only 20-30% of the property was sold. I actually think Marriott took a huge loss on this property.

I also own at CS and in my opinion, it’s on par with most properties of similar size, amenities, and decor.

Please visit the Island and CS so you can experience it for yourself before making wild assumptions and random comments on what builders profits are.

I may be off slightly on the prices, but you still ignore what I stated, WHAT IS THE COST TO BUILD ? It was not $1M for "$2M unit". Your own links show $1.3M for 2600 feet. Let's say the builder spent $1M and sold it for $1.3M. We're talking about 1200-1400 square feet, half the size for Marriott units.

ANYWAYS, let's assume you are 100% right that Marriott made next to nothing on $40K for a single week, the OP was complaining about the increase in fees and how it was no longer a value to own there. The suggestion was to sell and no longer have the chain around his ankle. Rent whenever he wanted paying the same or lower with no long term commitment.

 

[jlf58]

ANYWAYS, let's assume you are 100% right that Marriott made next to nothing on $40K for a single week,

Ok, not that hard of a concept. They don't make 100% and they don't make nothing. When they submit a project thier goal is between 15% ans 20% profit.

 

[normab]

You are in the company of other resorts who are in the same range of $1600. Although we have not received this year's bill, both our St Kitts and Waiohai are in the overpriced family of maintenance fees. And other Hawaii resorts are higher.

Can't argue with your frustration. We are just happy that BPT and Surfwatch have not skyrocketed.

 

[Quadmaniac]

Ok, not that hard of a concept. They don't make 100% and they don't make nothing. When they submit a project thier goal is between 15% ans 20% profit.

Whether they made 15,20,40,80%, the fact still remains the money is GONE GONE GONE GONE. No matter our debate about how much they made, it does not matter as it has no bearing on the 10% increase in MF. :whoopie:

 

[larryallen]

... I agree more and more with those that say "why buy when you can rent".

Well, if it makes you feel any better I paid almost 10% more to rent for 2013 than I did for the same unit back in 2011.

 

[Quadmaniac]

Well, if it makes you feel any better I paid almost 10% more to rent for 2013 than I did for the same unit back in 2011.

Ouch!