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Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

chriskre

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Enchanted Isle resort.
I like this idea, i thought i remember someone mentioning their HOA/POA/BOD sending out a list of weeks available for purchase with the yearly newsletter

Yes that was at Ft. Lauderdale beach resort. But why try to sell to us owners? Most owners know what their week is worth which is essentially $1 for the most part so why play games. Just give away the inventory and get someone in willing to pay the MF's. Might even be nice if they allowed owners to convert to RCI points for just the $250 that it really costs instead of trying to make more money off of owners. There are solutions out there if HOA's would get creative and not assume once a sucker always a sucker.

I bought only one direct purchase in my life. I'd never do it again. Why assume I'm still a sucker? At least make it right by offering me additional weeks if I so choose. I'd love to own back to back weeks at my home resort if someone wants out and is willing to give it back. Why not? Cheaper than a second home and I already love the resort. Disclaimer: I no longer own at Ft. Laud beach resort as I gave it away to a friend who wanted it. If I can give away a week for just the $100 transfer fee to a local in the area, then Duh, so can they. :rolleyes:
 

Ridewithme38

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What would be nice is extra days of vacation...if my MF of 700 gets me 7 nights, when 17% drop out and my MF is now $850 i should get atleast 8 days of vacation
 

chriskre

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Enchanted Isle resort.
You might be onto something in the long run.

The owners can forget about resale value. That's just head in the sand thinking. I don't even bother trying to sell anything that I don't want. I've already given away two weeks and am giving away a third. I'm not in denial and neither should the HOA's and owners.

We all need to be real here and do what is best for the community HOA. Getting owners in willing to take on the MF's is what is best for the HOA, not trying to preserve resale values which are almost nonexistent in many places. Now if there is a prime week and the HOA thinks they can market it and get a little for it then great but why hang onto a unit for years. Give it away.

In the meantime when an HOA takes on a unit, offer it to owners as a rental bonus at a discount of the MF's. Getting something for a unit is better than getting nothing. That would go along way with good will to current owners and spare us from having to use RCI to exchange right back into our own resort. I'd much rather pay my resort the equivalent of the MF's for another weeks use than try to get the same thing with trading thru RCI.

Am I making this too easy? :ignore:
 

ampaholic

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Timeshares are a unique blend of commercial real estate and residential real estate paradigm mixed with a little (or a lot) "travel agency" razzel dazzel.

There is one huge lack in the timeshare universe that commercial real esate has solid and residential real estate has pretty well worked out:

Appraisals.

Until a "workable" system for appraising timeshare evolves (if ever) the market will continue in disarray.

Perhaps a commercial valuation of the resort - divided by the number of intervals?

Pro: everyone would "have" some value - just like mf's everyone has "cost".
Con: just like mf's - no accounting for seasonal "value"

Ideas for an appraisal paradigm?
 

chriskre

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Enchanted Isle resort.
Ideas for an appraisal paradigm?

Yeah, require a disclaimer on all TS purchases that there is no guarantee of any future value and that the value could potentially be negative or zero. Of course it doesn't have to put in bold type. HOA's can educate their owners on the real value of what they own is in the use and trading but not in the resale value. I think once people understand that, they won't be as frustrated with their ownerships. Maybe I'm assuming too much but I think that's especially true of the resale buyers who would be taking over these weeks anyway. A little education goes a long way. Many HOA's are owned by TUG members anyway in alot of these independents. We have the answers to what ails a resort, we just need to be willing to share them. ;)
 

Ridewithme38

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Timeshares are a unique blend of commercial real estate and residential real estate paradigm mixed with a little (or a lot) "travel agency" razzel dazzel.

There is one huge lack in the timeshare universe that commercial real esate has solid and residential real estate has pretty well worked out:

Appraisals.

Until a "workable" system for appraising timeshare evolves (if ever) the market will continue in disarray.

Perhaps a commercial valuation of the resort - divided by the number of intervals?

Pro: everyone would "have" some value - just like mf's everyone has "cost".
Con: just like mf's - no accounting for seasonal "value"

Ideas for an appraisal paradigm?

You realize, this would give the HOA/POA/BOD's an excuse to raise MF's even higher, they really can't be trusted with that kind of information..."Oh since your week is worth X,XXX.XX, we feel you MF's should be XX% higher compared to other resorts in the area"

If you give the HOA/POA/BOD's an inch they will take your whole wallet
 

DanM

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There is a term in appraisal called 'functional obsolescence'. It's not good English, but essentially it means a feature that makes something worthless or having questionable value. My house is an example, because it is next to a railroad track and from an appraisal point of view this makes it worthless to most people - of value only to those who don't care about the trains. (parenthetically, I once saw an ad for an active lighthouse with foghorn as "perfect for that special person"). Anyway, between the multiple owners, the hotel-like aspects of the business, the seasonal issues, the uncertain resale market, etc., I think it is safe to say that no professional appraiser would put a value on a timeshare. (again, parenthetically, I would exclude from 'professionals' the criminals who approve retail timeshare mortgages)
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
News We Can Use -- Thanks.

I think it is safe to say that no professional appraiser would put a value on a timeshare.
Something to keep in mind when those up-front fee hornswogglers say they need to collect $2,500 in advance to cover the appraisal.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

ronparise

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What about the HOA's offering to take back the units and them offer them for free to anyone exchanging into the resorts or to current owners in good standing that are not in active sales. Maybe do a quick credit check just to make sure they are not a dead beat. Simple enough. :confused:

Amen brother
 

chriskre

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Carolinian

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Yes, a well run HOA will take advantage of all resale opportunities. Some of the things that my HOA did when I was on the board was to include a list of HOA weeks for sale with check-in materials, do a mailing once a year to everyone who had exchanged in or rented or come as an owner's guest in the previous year of a special offer for sale of weeks, run a booth at a local fesitival promoting our resale weeks, gave a free week as a door prize at both the annual meeting and for everyone who paid their m/f on time (restricted to those who checked a box that they would like to be included in the drawing), and occaisionally ran bid sales where any owner or their friends could bid on any week the HOA owned, We always took deedbacks if an owner asked, but we never publicized that fact. We also listed our HOA weeks with the local timeshare rental and resale broker.


What about the HOA's offering to take back the units and them offer them for free to anyone exchanging into the resorts or to current owners in good standing that are not in active sales. Maybe do a quick credit check just to make sure they are not a dead beat. Simple enough. :confused:

I just took on a foreclosure unit from an HOA for the transfer fees and MF's. I'd much rather take a unit from an HOA than from ebay but it's not an option at most resorts. Why? :shrug: I dunno, maybe the burry your head in the sand mentality.

I could see alot of happy vacationers willing to take on a "free" week to return to. I used to own at Ft. Laud beach resort. It puzzled mem why the HOA was willing to sell to owners for 2K their foreclosure inventory, when I could easily go to ebay and buy that same unit for $100 or less. Why not give the current owners an opportunity to take on additional weeks for free or just the transfer fee and MF's.

At least they know the current owners are paying their MF's and many love their resorts and would love to have another week there. Many resorts rent to locals in the area. Why not give them a week and offer day privileges. To many that might be worth the perk of owning. Trading thru RCI would just be icing on the cake for many who would buy to use.

Maybe I'm just too simplistic in my thinking, but free from the HOA certainly works for me. I couldn't be alone in my thinking. I do see how people would be leary of taking a free unit on ebay or another avenue but from the HOA? That would remove all doubts about taking one on. They have the prospects checking in every day. Why not give them a printout in the welcome package of the units available. What could it hurt? I recently stayed at an HGVC in Marco and they did just that. Of course they weren't give away prices since they have an onsite realtor trying to sell those units but in resorts that have no prestigous name attached to them, why not? :ponder:
 

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Ride, you always criticize HOA's but do you even know what one is? It is a non-profit corporation made up of the owners at the resort. M/f's are set based on the needs of the budget not someone pulling a number out of the air.


You realize, this would give the HOA/POA/BOD's an excuse to raise MF's even higher, they really can't be trusted with that kind of information..."Oh since your week is worth X,XXX.XX, we feel you MF's should be XX% higher compared to other resorts in the area"

If you give the HOA/POA/BOD's an inch they will take your whole wallet
 

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Ride, you always criticize HOA's but do you even know what one is? It is a non-profit corporation made up of the owners at the resort. M/f's are set based on the needs of the budget not someone pulling a number out of the air.

I don't buy it...if it really is based on the needs of the budget these HOA/POA/BOD members really need to take IQ tests or atleast learn how to take in comparison bids and not automatically take the highest bid possible...Meh, we've read stories on here all the time about HOA/POA/BOD getting free Ipads, free dinners, free trips to board meeting in Tropical Island, they do everything BUT take MF's and put them in their pockets

These guys hike up the rates every chance they get to profit off of us
 

chriskre

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Ride, you always criticize HOA's but do you even know what one is? It is a non-profit corporation made up of the owners at the resort. M/f's are set based on the needs of the budget not someone pulling a number out of the air.

It's cause his frame of reference is Wyndham and Starwood ownerships.
Not a good combination as examples. :(
 

chriskre

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Yes, a well run HOA will take advantage of all resale opportunities. Some of the things that my HOA did when I was on the board was to include a list of HOA weeks for sale with check-in materials, do a mailing once a year to everyone who had exchanged in or rented or come as an owner's guest in the previous year of a special offer for sale of weeks, run a booth at a local fesitival promoting our resale weeks, gave a free week as a door prize at both the annual meeting and for everyone who paid their m/f on time (restricted to those who checked a box that they would like to be included in the drawing), and occaisionally ran bid sales where any owner or their friends could bid on any week the HOA owned, We always took deedbacks if an owner asked, but we never publicized that fact. We also listed our HOA weeks with the local timeshare rental and resale broker.

This is all good if you're selling something with value but today there is no value so you gotta give it away or you're gonna be stuck with alot of MF bills. I think I'm gonna inquire when I'm at my favorite little resort and see what they are doing with the foreclosure weeks. Maybe they'll like my idea and I'll pick up a second week. A win-win and I don't have to pay RCI the $189 to come to my home resort anymore. ;)
 

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There's the problem Boca is addressing

The NYSE provides liquidity with a double auction, open cry auction system
The NASDAC uses a system of market makers

In both cases there is a place where corporate stock owners can go and almost be guaranteed a sale

For timeshares ebay is our auction market and The PCCs are our market makers...Maybe we dont have a problem. The POAs just need to refer their owners in default to a PCC

There is definitely a timeshare liquidity issue. There has been one for years. That is why PCCs came into existence even when the resale market was pretty good. Now that it has tanked, it is just more obvious.

The only way the market can clear is if there is a way to calculate the value of a timeshare. Without using discounted cash flows available in a rental model, there is no objective way to assess it. Then, buyers won't come in t o purchase them as an investment.

What I am saying is that the HOA should be the market maker. They are in the best position to control the variables that can make the auction work. They can control the resort budgets.
 

BocaBum99

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Boca ignores one of the main factors in people wanting out, exchangers upset at changes at exchange companies, primarily RCI. The own to use owner base is far more stable. The exchanger owner base used to also be fairly stable, but that has changed dramatically.

Exchange companies are not relevant in the discussion on timeshare liquidity. They are not material. Here you are just an RCI hater bringing up a non sequitur. If anything, exchange company rentals has helped with the liquidity issue because rental rates have risen as consumers see timeshares as excellent vacation alternatives to hotels and it provides an objective method for determining the value of a timeshare. There are some retailers who get very high rates for timeshares due to their brand.

One of the main solutions for HOA's is to gear resales to an own to use market.

I agree. Not only should all HOAs have an in house or outsourced broker, they should also have a rental program.


He also focuses on one tiny fraction of the resale market, eBay, and that has been deliberately flooded by the PCC's to kill it off. I had the HOA resale portfolio for a number of years on my HOA board, and we sold on eBay, Yahoo auctions, and similar sites. I watched the PCC's sales channels arrive, flood the eBay market, and kill it. Since that worked into their come on to potential clients, I would suspect that this impact was intended rather than just an unintended consequence of their activities. PCC sales are the cause more than symptom of dead eBay sales. Again, I watched that as it happened.

Wrong. I am speaking about the resale market for timeshares in general. There has been a lack of liquidity in the market in the entire time I have been in it. That's why I knew I could get into it and make a business. PCCs were a problem back then and existed even when eBay sales were great. Now, the problem is reaching crisis state where many timeshares will not move at any price. Just look at how many threads there are on the so-called Viking Ship model. I have never seen such a thing, but I wouldn't doubt they exist. Their existence would mean that there is a lack of liquidity for those timeshares. That is by definition what a lack of liquidity is.


In my area, if you look at markets broader that eBay, it is clear that the timeshare market is still viable for resales. I suspect that is true in many others. Internet oriented people look mostly to places like eBay as sales outlets, but the key is to not limit yourself to those.

If it is viable, then why would an HOA not want free inventory. They should be the market maker.

Boca, since you are a consistent defender of the PCC's, I have a question for you. You are a timeshare reseller yourself. Do you buy some of your inventory from PCC's and is this at least part of why you always jump to their defense?

I am a defender of the model of taking a fee to liquidate a timeshare, not individual PCCs who use unethical tactics to get their inventory. There are a lot of companies who liquidate timeshares for a fee and as far as I can tell do it ethically. I take a transfer fee for people who want me to help liquidate their Bluegreen timeshares. I am not a PCC.

Yes, I get some of my inventory from PCCs. But not because I cut a deal with a PCC. It is impossible being a large player in the market and not get inventory from PCCs. What most people don't understand is that people who sell PCC inventory are not necessarily the PCCs themselves. I am known in the industry as a market maker for Bluegreen timeshares. So, people come to me to unload their BG points and weeks packages. Some we take, some we don't. In a buyer's market, it makes you a very popular person if you can move inventory. Just this past month, someone wanted to unload a bunch of inventory, I asked if they were a PCC, they said no. I expected to get transfers directly from owners. I got LPOAs. That surprised me. That could be from a PCC, from a donation company, from a travel club, a developer taking equity trade ins or from another type of intermediary. I don't know how most of my contacts get their inventory. Quite honestly, I don't care.

I would like nothing more than for PCCs to go away. Then, I would just work with the HOAs. If the HOAs did their jobs, there wouldn't be any PCCs. Resorts can charge a transfer fee and 1 or 2 year's maintenance fees just like a PCC can. I want for them to be confident enough with the value of their timeshares that if they had to take some back, they know they could move it quickly and to the benefit of the owners.
 

BocaBum99

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Boca,

Well how about writing to our hard working US Senators, and local Members of Congress to pass a bill at the federal level. Then the President can sign into law!

I think that would be the way to go as well.

Real Estate is an issue for the states. The Feds should stay out of it.

Some people on this thread are saying that you can't change what is on a deed. What you can't change is the absolute fact that HOAs have bylaws that can be changed. Laws can be written to govern what HOAs can and can't do. Also HOAs have a lot of power over owners. They can force common assessments onto owners that many don't want. They can create rules where you cannot have a basketball court. They have the power of assessing owners and putting liens on title. Those who don't understand this are clueless about Real Estate law.
 

BocaBum99

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Though I don't disagree with your economics 101 theories, I do disagree on how you propose to 'save the market'.

I don't think you can have a maint. fee so low because then the resort will become 'old' and then they won't be able to rent at any price because it is run down.

This is completely wrong and I'll prove it.

1) If there is a hotel in the area that is operating at a profit, then there is absolutely no reason that a timeshare resort can't operate with a lower budget since it will have higher occupancy and guaranteed revenues in the form of owner maintenance fee payments. There is no reason a timeshare resort that does not have daily check ins, or daily housekeeping and has much higher occupancy rate should not be able to kill a hotel in the rental market.

2) If there aren't any hotels that are operating at a profit, then get a clue. That timeshare resort should be terminated. There is currently no mechanism for timeshares to die in most places.

If you force an HOA to take the deed back you are basically saying, 'sign this contract, but, you won't have to abide by it'.

WRONG. What the contract is saying is that the HOA is going to be accountable for ensuring that your resort has a non-zero value. That is a pretty damn low bar. If the HOA has the power to terminate the timeshare plan, just about any timeshare in existence today will get some positive value if the timeshare is knocked down and the land is used for something else like a new public storage facility. Those proceeds can be distributed to current owners. That would be the price floor. If a timeshare resort has a positive, non-zero value in a liquid market, why wouldn't they want to take it back? It is just profit for the HOA. Any other thought process diverts from this fundamental truth.

Moreover, if the timeshare unit had a positive value, why would the owner want to pay to give it back to the resort? They would want to sell it on the open market. If the HOA is providing that function, they can say put it into the resale program or rental program. IF the HOA is doing its job, the rental should earn a profit above the maintenance fees. That alone would encourage the owner to keep it.

I think your theories assume most people want to get out of their timeshares, which I don't think is necessarily the case.

WRONG. My theory assumes that HOAs should have the accountability for ensuring non-zero market value and liquidity for resales. I propose 2 timeshare acts that if adopted will naturally result in liquidity in timeshares. If a resort has positive value and is liquid, then if people want to keep it, they can. Just because IBM stock can be bought and sold any trading day of the week does NOT mean that everyone wants to sell it. It just says that the day you want to sell it, you can.

My thought to fix the market is to let the market work. If the gov. get's involved and forces HOA's to take back deeds, then you will for sure blow the market up and timeshares will be a thing of the past. That for sure will hurt more people than the maybe 15 - 20 percent who are stuggling with their timeshares now. (and that 15 - 20 percent is just a number off the top of my head....I can't imagine it is higher than that)

WRONG again. For the market to work, market mechanisms must be in place. There is no market maker in timeshares. PCCs and eBay do it because not enough other parties are doing it. I claim the HOAs should be mandated to do it.

Two mechanisms that would make it work are the ones I am advocating. Since I am not running for office, I can tell the truth. The truth is that if HOAs don't take deedbacks, then they will die a slow death and end up taking the deeds back anyway. If timeshares aren't allowed to die, then the entire industry will die a slow death.

If you think I am saying this because I have a vested interest in it, let me assure you that there is a ton of money to be made in dying industries. I spent a lot of time in the Telex business in the 80s and 90s. If you think back then, fax had taken over and there was nobody in their right mind who thought telex was a business that should not die. As a result, there were no competitors and margins were extremely high. I am saying this because the timesharing industry has a huge problem and without sweeping action, it will die a slow death.
 
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ronparise

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There is definitely a timeshare liquidity issue. There has been one for years. That is why PCCs came into existence even when the resale market was pretty good. Now that it has tanked, it is just more obvious.

The only way the market can clear is if there is a way to calculate the value of a timeshare. Without using discounted cash flows available in a rental model, there is no objective way to assess it. Then, buyers won't come in t o purchase them as an investment.

What I am saying is that the HOA should be the market maker. They are in the best position to control the variables that can make the auction work. They can control the resort budgets.

I agree...who better than the HOA
 

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Be aware that no law that retroactively removes or changes owners deeded rights - such ad forcing them to accept others deed backs - would never stand up in courts. You can make that yhe rule or law for new buyers but not existing owners. To think otherwise is asking for something that cannot be done unilaterally even by the government. Its simple law.

Several points.

1) There can be 2 laws adopted in most states tomorrow that requires
a) All new timeshare plans to self terminate after 25 years.
b) Timeshare statutes can be modified to require that all new timeshare plans must take deed backs for a transfer fee and 1 or 2 years forward maintenance fees.

I do not believe you disagree with the above.

2) If such a mandate were made to all current timeshares, there is nothing that has to touch any of the deeds. This only impacts how HOAs are allowed to operate. HOAs make changes to bylaws all the time. Every year in some instances. They can choose to take deedbacks or not. If they can make that choice, they can be mandated to do it without touching any deeds.

If you disagree, please tell me how an HOA can even consider having a deedback program if it violates deeded rights? If it is such a violation, then you need to call out all resorts that do it as violating owners rights. They are not.

It turns out that the opposite is more of an issue. If a PCC decides to not pay maintenance fees and will not allow a deed in lieu of foreclosure, then the HOA is hosed. That owner has rights that cannot be violated. The HOA is compelled to go through the foreclosure process and spend a ton of money doing it. If I recall, TUG members applauded the efforts in some states that violated owners due process rights and eliminated the need for full process foreclosures. Where was the outrage there? Those are actual property rights being violated.
 

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As I pointed out in an earlier post, with the data to back it up, on the OBX, the broader market shows that those weeks are NOT worthless. Each local timeshare market is different, and I am sure there may be some where indeed all weeks are worthless, but don't assume that is the case from what you see in the tiny eBay niche. especially since eBay prices are artificially depressed by the PCC's flooding that market as part of their business strategy. Look at the broader local market.


This is all good if you're selling something with value but today there is no value so you gotta give it away or you're gonna be stuck with alot of MF bills. I think I'm gonna inquire when I'm at my favorite little resort and see what they are doing with the foreclosure weeks. Maybe they'll like my idea and I'll pick up a second week. A win-win and I don't have to pay RCI the $189 to come to my home resort anymore. ;)
 
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Carolinian

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The level of democracy varies at HOA's. On the OBX, several require that the annual budget as well as any special assessments be voted on by the entire membership. I have owned at two resorts where that was the case. Even if it is not the case, if the board goes haywire, you can vote them out, and that too does happen.

HOA's can vote at their annual meeting to do or not do what you suggest. Why should big government compell it?


Real Estate is an issue for the states. The Feds should stay out of it.

Some people on this thread are saying that you can't change what is on a deed. What you can't change is the absolute fact that HOAs have bylaws that can be changed. Laws can be written to govern what HOAs can and can't do. Also HOAs have a lot of power over owners. They can force common assessments onto owners that many don't want. They can create rules where you cannot have a basketball court. They have the power of assessing owners and putting liens on title. Those who don't understand this are clueless about Real Estate law.
 
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