Cost of ancillary probate (summary administration) in florida

[dioxide45]

I would hope not!

But you’re not being rational. There is a cost to obtain probate court approval to abandon an asset. And there’s a cost to complete an ancillary probate. In this case, the heir desires the property. If it were to cost $4K for an ancillary probate vs $1500 to obtain court approval to abandon, and then the sister goes out and buys a week that can’t even be enrolled, that’s ridiculous.

The mindset that the timeshare should always be abandoned in an estate is so misleading, especially when pushed by “timeshare junkies”. And come on, “thousands of dollars”? That’s fear mongering. .

I agree, the person taking the timeshare needs to know what they are getting, but the timeshare that is the topic of this thread isn't a Marriott. Enrollment doesn't apply. That is what is the basis of the advice being provided here. It is a specific question about a specific property.

A question I have, can a timeshare be more easily abandoned when it is in a trust? Meaning it wouldn't require court approval to abandon? If they can't find anyone to take it, could the trust just default on the timeshare?

 

[LeslieDet]

We are re-doing out trust next year, and I own multiple TS's in Florida, should I state in my TS who those should go to or if they should be sold or given away?

you should discuss with your attorney ensuring that your trust gives your successor trustee the discretion to sell or otherwise dispose of the property. No beneficiaries are forced to accept the property, whether it’s a timeshare, a car, your pers residence or some other item of personal property. Your successor trustee should have the discretion to made prudent decisions.

 

[LeslieDet]

I agree, the person taking the timeshare needs to know what they are getting, but the timeshare that is the topic of this thread isn't a Marriott. Enrollment doesn't apply. That is what is the basis of the advice being provided here. It is a specific question about a specific property.

A question I have, can a timeshare be more easily abandoned when it is in a trust? Meaning it wouldn't require court approval to abandon? If they can't find anyone to take it, could the trust just default on the timeshare?

when trust owned, that avoids probate. So, no court approval even comes into play. The trustee of the trust can make decisions regarding the assets held in the trust. Default carries risk to other trust assets. But at least the trustee has the legal authority to give it away or deed back without court intervention.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

And come on, “thousands of dollars”? That’s fear mongering. .

He’s literally getting quotes of $5,000 to open ancillary probate in FL to probate this worthless asset. Describing $5,000 as “thousands of dollars” is fear mongering? Ok…

 

[LeslieDet]

He’s literally getting quotes of $5,000 to open ancillary probate in FL to probate this worthless asset. Describing $5,000 as “thousands of dollars” is fear mongering? Ok…

In my world, a retainer isn’t the same thing as a quote. And, last time I checked, the overall value of the estate was never described. If it’s a $2MM estate, then $5k is de minimus. It’s not 1950. And frankly, $5k is less than what the homes in my neighborhood rent for on a monthly basis.

 

[davidvel]

In my world, a retainer isn’t the same thing as a quote. And, last time I checked, the overall value of the estate was never described. If it’s a $2MM estate, then $5k is de minimus. It’s not 1950. And frankly, $5k is less than what the homes in my neighborhood rent for on a monthly basis.

Exactly, so most likely that is just the beginning of the costs. In "your world" $5,000 or more dollars is not “thousands of dollars.” That is all anyone needs to know about your advice.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

In my world, a retainer isn’t the same thing as a quote. And, last time I checked, the overall value of the estate was never described. If it’s a $2MM estate, then $5k is de minimus. It’s not 1950. And frankly, $5k is less than what the homes in my neighborhood rent for on a monthly basis.

$5,000 is absolutely thousands of dollars. Literally, by definition, it is thousands of dollars. Five of them! And whether the estate is $2 or $200,000,000, it’s still a waste of thousands of dollars to open up an ancillary probate to probate a worthless timeshare. And are you seriously claiming that a lawyer who asks for a $5,000 retainer isn’t going to charge thousands of dollars (even if he ultimately doesn’t use the full $5,000?). Do you think a lawyer who asks for a $5,000 retainer will actually only end up charging a few hundred?

 

[Ski-Dad]

In my world, a retainer isn’t the same thing as a quote. And, last time I checked, the overall value of the estate was never described. If it’s a $2MM estate, then $5k is de minimus. It’s not 1950. And frankly, $5k is less than what the homes in my neighborhood rent for on a monthly basis.

For most people who are not trust fund people, $5K is real money.

I do practice law, admittedly not estate law. I have never dealt with a a law firm that asked for a retainer and subsequently returned change after completing the work. I have seen $$ returned where the work got cancelled. Not otherwise.

 

[5finny]

To the OP @sciguy82
My favorite attorney GOOGLE came up with this:

NON-RESIDENT DECEDENTS WITH FLORIDA PROPERTY​

When a resident of another state dies owning real estate in Florida, proceedings are necessary in Florida to transfer the property. Even if a personal representative has been appointed in the decedent's home state, neither that person nor the home state's probate court has jurisdiction over the Florida property. As a result the out-of-state personal representative cannot validly execute a deed transferring the Florida property.
This issue often comes up when a family member is trying to sell a non-resident decedent's Florida property. It is usually discovered after the contract has been executed and can jeopardize the ability for the Seller to perform by the Closing Date.
Time can become a major factor. Buyers don't want to wait months to get clear title. Cost is another factor. The Seller doesn't want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a probate proceeding. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that the procedure needed to effectively transfer the property can be quite simple.
In these circumstances, there are 4 alternatives: 1). Admission of the Foreign Will to Record in the Florida County where the property is located, 2). An Ancillary Probate proceeding, 3). A Short Form Ancillary Proceeding, or 4). Summary Administration.
Admission of the Foreign Will to Record. This is by far the easiest, quickest and least expensive alternative. An authenticated copy of the will of a nonresident that devises Florida real property, or any right, title, or interest in the property, may be admitted to record in any Florida county where the property is located at any time after 2 years from the death of the decedent or at any time after the domiciliary personal representative has been discharged if there has been no prior proceeding to administer the estate of the decedent in Florida.
As you can see, this is only available to testate estates (with a will) that have been fully probated in another state. Further, the will must have been executed with the formalities required by Florida law.
A Petition to Admit a Foreign Will to Record may be filed with the Florida court by any person and shall be accompanied by authenticated copies from the out-of-state court of the foreign will, the petition for probate, and the order admitting the will to probate.
If the Florida court finds that the requirements of this law have been met, it will enter an Order Admitting the Foreign Will to Record. When admitted to record, the foreign will shall be as valid and effectual to pass title to real property and any right, title, or interest therein as if the will had been admitted to probate in Florida. Title would be vested in those persons to whom the decedent has devised it in the will, and those devisees must personally convey title to any third party.

Please note GOOGLE is only my favorite attorney because it does not charge--UNFORTUNATELY IT IS OFTEN WRONG OR MISLEADING
Therefore this is something else that you might ask a real attorney about and see if it has potential to save money
Although as I look at it it might not apply to you situation if your estate has not been fully probated or the decedent died less than 2 years ago

 

[dioxide45]

Isn't the value of the estate $0? That being its value in Florida? The Florida attorney shouldn't care about anything except what they would be probating in Florida.

 

[TUGBrian]

the argument is still the same.... is the cost/effort worth it to do the "right thing legally".

that question has a different answer for every single situation. including this one.

 

[LeslieDet]

For most people who are not trust fund people, $5K is real money.

I do practice law, admittedly not estate law. I have never dealt with a a law firm that asked for a retainer and subsequently returned change after completing the work. I have seen $$ returned where the work got cancelled. Not otherwise.

I don't know where you have ever practiced, but in the course of my years of practice, there have been many times that the cost of the work has come in below the estimate. And, not sure if you are implying that I am somehow a "trust fund" person. LOL. While $5k is "real money", when folks use the term "thousands of dollars" they tend to be referencing 6 digits. But whatever. And, if it costs $1500 to seek permission to abandon an asset, which is NEVER guaranteed, and $5k to actually do the work to give the asset to the beneficiary who does indeed want it, then I guess for you spending $3500 is the equivalent of "thousands of dollars". Geesh. You have no idea why that property is important to that heir. Who are you to tell her it is worthless to her?

 

[LeslieDet]

$5,000 is absolutely thousands of dollars. Literally, by definition, it is thousands of dollars. Five of them! And whether the estate is $2 or $200,000,000, it’s still a waste of thousands of dollars to open up an ancillary probate to probate a worthless timeshare. And are you seriously claiming that a lawyer who asks for a $5,000 retainer isn’t going to charge thousands of dollars (even if he ultimately doesn’t use the full $5,000?). Do you think a lawyer who asks for a $5,000 retainer will actually only end up charging a few hundred?

Yes, I am seriously claiming that a lawyer who asks for a $5k retainer isn't by definition going to charge thousands of dollars more.

 

[LeslieDet]

Please note GOOGLE is only my favorite attorney because it does not charge--UNFORTUNATELY IT IS OFTEN WRONG OR MISLEADING
Therefore this is something else that you might ask a real attorney about and see if it has potential to save money
Although as I look at it it might not apply to you situation if your estate has not been fully probated and the decedent died less than 2 years ago

FYI - I think you have a typo - Abbreviated Florida ancillary summary administration – If the total value of the Florida property and other Florida assets is less than $75,000 or if the decedent passed away more than two years ago, an abbreviated Florida ancillary summary administration can commence.

 

[bizaro86]

Yes, I am seriously claiming that a lawyer who asks for a $5k retainer isn't by definition going to charge thousands of dollars more.

Thousands of dollars is $2000 to $10,000. Or maybe even up to $20,000. After that it becomes "tens of thousands" and six figures is clearly "hundreds of thousands". I mean, that's literally what the words mean.

I think any lawyer who asks for a $5000 retainer is going to bill at least $2000 of that retainer, which would make the cost "thousands of dollars"

 

[LeslieDet]

the argument is still the same.... is the cost/effort worth it to do the "right thing legally".

that question has a different answer for every single situation. including this one.

If a named heir desires that the ownership of the FL property be transferred to her, then that is not only the "right" thing to do, it is also the executor's fiduciary duty to complete.

 

[5finny]

FYI - I think you have a typo - Abbreviated Florida ancillary summary administration – If the total value of the Florida property and other Florida assets is less than $75,000 or if the decedent passed away more than two years ago, an abbreviated Florida ancillary summary administration can commence.

Thanks
Corrected

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Yes, I am seriously claiming that a lawyer who asks for a $5k retainer isn't by definition going to charge thousands of dollars more.

I never said “thousands of dollars more“. You keep changing the statements made by others in this thread so that you can argue against strawmen. I said this would cost “thousands of dollars.” You said that was “fear mongering,” but it was not, it was a completely factual statement. $5,000 is thousands of dollars. A lawyer who charges a $5,000 retainer is charging you thousands of dollars. Words have meaning. As an attorney you should understand that.

 

[LeslieDet]

I never said “thousands of dollars more“. You keep changing the statements made by others in this thread so that you can argue against strawmen. I said this would cost “thousands of dollars.” You said that was “fear mongering,” but it was not, it was a completely factual statement. $5,000 is thousands of dollars. A lawyer who charges a $5,000 retainer is charging you thousands of dollars. Words have meaning. As an attorney you should understand that.

You really make me laugh. You have changed statements and implied meanings that were not present so many times I've lost count. The fact remains that abandonment is not something that can be done without court approval. Folks who always say just pay the bill and then walk away (like you have said) don't address the legal steps necessary. Perhaps you believe that it is implied, but that step is crucial and somehow you always omit to discuss that aspect, as do the "junkies" who like to push disinformation on this site. My goal in all of this is to help the OP, and provide info that may help the OP.

And, while you perhaps have never dealt with lawyers who have fixed fees or request retainers for small matters, when I was practicing, I routinely came across lawyers who, when dealing with clients who were out of state, they would request a retainer to bill against, and at the end of what is really a small proceeding, refund the balance. There were times I also did that if I needed to help someone from out of state on a minor matter.

 

[davidvel]

The lawyer is chastising people because in her mind when folks use the term phrase "thousands of dollars" they really mean "hundreds of thousands of dollars," and calling $5,000 "thousands of dollars" is fearmongering. OK, got it. Makes perfect sense (to her).

 

[sciguy82]

Wow, this thread got a little wild since I posted last! Thanks everyone for the advice.

I'll try to talk to my SIL again and convince her not to go down this path but I'm not too optimistic. To put it into perspective (and apologies if this is too descriptive), my MIL's passing was unattended for an extended period of time. This necessitated complete remediation of the room in which she was found. My SIL fought with me over discarding anything from that room. She still wanted everything.... That's my uphill battle with this estate.

Here's some additional helpful information for anyone in a similar situation to me though:

I reached out to maybe a dozen probate attorneys, but many rejected me via email or simply never returned my calls. Whether that was due to the ancillary nature of the probate or the timeshare itself, I’m not sure. I ended up speaking to a total of seven attorneys about my situation, which would be a simple summary administration of an ancillary probate. This means the beneficiaries are in agreement on the disposition of the asset, the asset is valued at under $75,000 (or, in this case, worthless ), and there are no foreseeable complications.

Almost all of them gave a flat rate plus costs (filing fees, etc.). The highest quote I received was $6,000 plus fees, which I felt was complete extortion. The second-highest was $5,000 plus fees. The majority ranged from $2,500 to $4,000 plus filing fees (~$500). Only one attorney offered an hourly rate and requested just $1,000 for the initial retainer but estimated the final cost would be around $2,000 plus fees.

So, the answer to my question appears to be that around $2,500 to $3,000 is a reasonable average expected cost. Whether it's reasonable to PAY that much to deal with a timeshare... well, that's another matter entirely.. .

 

[LeslieDet]

Almost all of them gave a flat rate plus costs (filing fees, etc.). The highest quote I received was $6,000 plus fees, which I felt was complete extortion. The second-highest was $5,000 plus fees. The majority ranged from $2,500 to $4,000 plus filing fees (~$500). Only one attorney offered an hourly rate and requested just $1,000 for the initial retainer but estimated the final cost would be around $2,000 plus fees.

Thank you for confirming that aspect. I am always surprised by folks on this site who claim to be lawyers and who do not understand that in many instances dealing with probate, there is a fixed fee. It is entirely appropriate to add costs incurred to that fixed fee.

As to your SIL, it is obviously very difficult for her to deal with the passing of her mom. It is ok if having her mom's timeshare is some way to bring her fond memories and peace at this time of loss.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Thank you for confirming that aspect. I am always surprised by folks on this site who claim to be lawyers and who do not understand that in many instances dealing with probate, there is a fixed fee. I

Do you ever admit when you are wrong? Literally every quote he got from every lawyer amounts to thousands of dollars, to probate a worthless asset. The only thing I can think is that you have an incredibly strong pro-HOA bias because you sit on an HOA, which is why you consistently give the advice you give that is invariably anti-owner but favorable for an HOA.

To the OP: If you can’t talk your SIL out of it, it is what it is I guess. You might want to suggest to your SIL that she figure out what her exit strategy is going to be when she can no longer use this timeshare, because, as those eBay listings showed, it may not be easy to get rid of once it’s in her name. It already has maintenance fees that exceed the cost of just cash booking an equivalent accommodation in Orlando, and those maintenance fees are only going to go up (and almost certainly faster than inflation).

 

[davidvel]

Do you ever admit when you are wrong? Literally every quote he got from every lawyer amounts to thousands of dollars, to probate a worthless asset. The only thing I can think is that you have an incredibly strong pro-HOA bias because you sit on an HOA, which is why you consistently give the advice you give that is invariably anti-owner but favorable for an HOA.

To the OP: If you can’t talk your SIL out of it, it is what it is I guess. You might want to suggest to your SIL that she figure out what her exit strategy is going to be when she can no longer use this timeshare, because, as those eBay listings showed, it may not be easy to get rid of once it’s in her name. It already has maintenance fees that exceed the cost of just cash booking an equivalent accommodation in Orlando, and those maintenance fees are only going to go up (and almost certainly faster than inflation).

Just your typical flim flam word jumble from her.

 

[LeslieDet]

Do you ever admit when you are wrong? Literally every quote he got from every lawyer amounts to thousands of dollars, to probate a worthless asset. The only thing I can think is that you have an incredibly strong pro-HOA bias because you sit on an HOA, which is why you consistently give the advice you give that is invariably anti-owner but favorable for an HOA.

To the OP: If you can’t talk your SIL out of it, it is what it is I guess. You might want to suggest to your SIL that she figure out what her exit strategy is going to be when she can no longer use this timeshare, because, as those eBay listings showed, it may not be easy to get rid of once it’s in her name. It already has maintenance fees that exceed the cost of just cash booking an equivalent accommodation in Orlando, and those maintenance fees are only going to go up (and almost certainly faster than inflation).

OMG - do you ever admit you didn’t even have a clue that there wasn’t going to be thousands of dollars in fees billed over and above the quoted fees? You still haven’t even acknowledged that a motion to abandon the asset would require “thousands of dollars” and is not guaranteed? Give it a break.

Just admit that you are so biased against timeshares that you’ll basically create any narrative, no matter how false, to support your position that owners should always abandon the timeshares instead of dealing with them.

And, heck, what about a breach of fiduciary duty when an executor refuses to take the legal steps necessary to comply with the desires of an heir who wants the property? Hmmm? You don’t think that’s important?