Cliff refused to get in the passenger seat today

[rapmarks]

At the continuing care community where my parents live a doctor has been reporting a number of residents to the DMV for cognitive issues. Some have taken the news better than others. One woman asked my father for help reading the odometer so her daughter could sell the car. When he went down to read the odometer she had nothing to write the milage on. They walked back to the unit and my 93 year old father had memorized the number so she could write it down. I am in total awe of his faculties at that age. He did give up driving last year mostly because of slow reaction time with his feet.

I know a lady who is 101, she still lives alone in a very big house. She gave up driving at %99.

 

[Patri]

Sorry Faith. I laughed at the line about a divorce.

 

[Sugarcubesea]

Sorry Faith. I laughed at the line about a divorce.

Faith and Patri, I laughed at that as well...

 

[amycurl]

But it would have been tough to hear. Faith, I hope you get some peer support and a chance to talk through how you are coping with all of this with someone. I can only imagine how hard it would be.

 

[rapmarks]

Had the usual Saturday with Mexican Train in the afternoon, dinner with five friends, cards in the evening. He climbed into bed at 8:30, and I thought that was it for the night. NOPE. He was up at 9:30 to tell me he’s leaving Reata Glen today and divorcing me. Can I stop the DMV paperwork until he gets settled somewhere else? I can call Monday (not), Cliff, but it is possible that it was electronically transmitted. He went back to bed after an hour and every few minutes he’d open his eyes to accuse me of lying to the doctor about his driving skills. Ignored me when I tell him it’s his cognitive decline, not driving ability, that is the issue. Now you’ve done it, see what you’ve done went on periodically for another hour.

So obviously I had a second night of little sleep. Don’t know what today will bring. But he was dead serious last night, so I don’t expect it has blown over. Thought to hide the car, but decided not to. Contemplating taking the debit/ATM card out of his wallet (which generally he doesn’t use anyway) to safeguard the bank account and just leave him with a credit card. Heck I don’t think he could find a hotel on his own if he were to leave, let alone pack a bag that included a phone charger, tooth brush and plenty of Depends.

ETA he did drink 3/4 bottle of wine last night which I’m sure contributed to the late night ramblings.

Did you get a two bedroom place, time for separate bedrooms

 

[clifffaith]

But it would have been tough to hear. Faith, I hope you get some peer support and a chance to talk through how you are coping with all of this with someone. I can only imagine how hard it would be.

This afternoon he told me again he was leaving, did I want him to go now? No, you haven’t made any plans. He went downstairs to read the paper, so I called his sister in TX and just lost it. She and my BIL were able to talk me down and impress upon me that this was his disease talking and he was lashing out at me because I’m the only one he can lash out at. They think it is time to move him to assisted living and/or memory care. I fear he will be combative and therefore not eligible to stay on property. His father had the same cognitive problem. I think Cliff could benefit from a “chill pill” of some sort.

 

[clifffaith]

Did you get a two bedroom place, time for separate bedrooms

I thought of that last night. There is a husband and wife here that lead separate lives in the same unit. They moved in that way. Rumor has it that he refused treatment for whatever he has (he makes lots of weird movements) and she is pissed about it, thus their estrangement.

 

[heathpack]

Oh boy. I would worry a little bit about his having access to money because he's really upset with you right now and feeling a little vindictive. Have you considered consulting with an attorney? They might be able to help you protect assets.

 

[rapmarks]

I thought of that last night. There is a husband and wife here that lead separate lives in the same unit. They moved in that way. Rumor has it that he refused treatment for whatever he has (he makes lots of weird movements) and she is pissed about it, thus their estrangement.

You don’t t need to live separate lives. Just to get a good nights sleep. My husband roamed around every night.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

She and my BIL were able to talk me down and impress upon me that this was his disease talking and he was lashing out at me because I’m the only one he can lash out at.

Bingo!

I have had a somewhat similar experience in my life, when I realized I was merely a convenient vessel in which to dump some issues that really were not associated with me.

My Mom went through some of that with my Dad. We tried to tell her to not take it personally, but it was so hard for not to take it personally after all of the years they lived together with excellent personal communications.

 

[sue1947]

Faith,
I admire the way you have handled a very difficult situation. Please also make sure to take care of yourself. In particular, that debit card is a concern. Cliff is an easy mark for a con artist not to mention his ability to make poor decisions. Please make sure the account tied to that card has limited funds and no access to larger accounts.
Assisted living might be a good option, especially if it's in the same facility. Memory care is usually locked down for residents who will wander off. Assisted living can work for folks with memory issues who won't wander off. There are caregivers there to help him, but he can still join in on activities or you can take him out for a drive etc. It would take some of the weight off your shoulders.
And do remember it is the disease talking. If his memory is also going, he won't remember it after awhile. And trying to reason with somebody with dementia is futile. He may know enough to be terrified of his future and lash out; don't take it personally (though I'm not sure you can take it any other way).

 

[WinniWoman]

Maybe try the math approach? Figure how much the car costs vs Uber or Lyft. You can designate as a senior. You still have freedom, get dropped at the door, no hunting for parking. There are many pluses to letting the car and insurance costs go. I hope when it’s my time I will surrender gracefully.

Plus there are volunteer organizations that provide rides to apprs. for seniors.

 

[Snazzylass]

I thought of that last night. There is a husband and wife here that lead separate lives in the same unit. They moved in that way. Rumor has it that he refused treatment for whatever he has (he makes lots of weird movements) and she is pissed about it, thus their estrangement.

It's okay to sleep in separate bedrooms (if Hubs would go along with this) and have a happy marriage! Yes, it's one of the first things I learned as a Realtor. I'd be showing homes to older couples and the Mrs. would point out which would be her bedroom & which would be His. TMI, for sure. Yes, it was shocking to me at first but I know lots of older couples who do this and are quite happy! And, then there's the separate bathroom when it's an option....

 

[Patri]

Would your care plan be different if this was your father? It does seem to be time for Cliff to move into a different level of care, while you stay put. Then you can visit him.

 

[Brett]

It's okay to sleep in separate bedrooms (if Hubs would go along with this) and have a happy marriage! Yes, it's one of the first things I learned as a Realtor. I'd be showing homes to older couples and the Mrs. would point out which would be her bedroom & which would be His. TMI, for sure. Yes, it was shocking to me at first but I know lots of older couples who do this and are quite happy! And, then there's the separate bathroom when it's an option....

Yes, it's an age related thing. I know plenty of couples with separate bedrooms - including me!

 

[clifffaith]

Would your care plan be different if this was your father? It does seem to be time for Cliff to move into a different level of care, while you stay put. Then you can visit him.

It is unclear to me what the process is for moving someone who is uncooperative. There is one involving family, doctors, Reata Glen staff and management, and possibly social workers when someone is willing or largely incapacitated. Don’t know how they’d handle this. My guess would is they start the talking process to try to get Cliff used to the idea of a move. That would NOT go over well right now. I will inform them today or tomorrow that we are in crisis mode. They can’t/won’t handle combative patients, so he needs to “go quietly “.

 

[clifffaith]

I have drafted a note to our financial advisors giving them a brief explanation of the situation and a heads up in case Cliff actually starts “making plans”. Asked them to speak with him if he calls, but to stall and not to be moving money around without my input (we have a joint account as well as two separate IRA accounts). Haven’t sent the note yet because I don’t want to accidentally trigger something that would lock me out of the accounts as well. If anyone has insight on that I’d love to hear it.

 

[rapmarks]

Bingo!

I have had a somewhat similar experience in my life, when I realized I was merely a convenient vessel in which to dump some issues that really were not associated with me.

My Mom went through some of that with my Dad. We tried to tell her to not take it personally, but it was so hard for not to take it personally after all of the years they lived together with excellent personal communications.

So right on. I was constantly accused of having a boyfriend. I couldn’t figure out who the boyfriend was. My bil has threatened to kill my sister, the disease talking,we hope.
My mother in law thought I was just some tart he brought along when we visited her when she had the disease. Also got a call at three in the morning when she accused us of stealing her china.

 

[sue1947]

I have drafted a note to our financial advisors giving them a brief explanation of the situation and a heads up in case Cliff actually starts “making plans”. Asked them to speak with him if he calls, but to stall and not to be moving money around without my input (we have a joint account as well as two separate IRA accounts). Haven’t sent the note yet because I don’t want to accidentally trigger something that would lock me out of the accounts as well. If anyone has insight on that I’d love to hear it.

I would start by setting up a separate account with a smaller amount of money and give him that debit card. There should not be any way for money from your other accounts to transfer over if the account is depleted. That should give you some time. Then I would have a conversation with an estate attorney about how best to navigate this as his dementia worsens. Then have a conversation with your financial advisors.
I tried to change the phone number for my mother's mutual fund after her strokes. They needed to speak to her to get her ok. They asked what her social security number was, phone number, address; she couldn't answer any of it. Her memory was better then than it is now, but there was no way she could answer any of it. So I sent in the power of attorney. Nope. They had decided it was a scam. That level of caution is appreciated sometimes, but not others. I think you will want legal advice before contacting the financial advisors so they don't 'batten down the hatches' to prevent any liability on their part.

 

[clifffaith]

I would start by setting up a separate account with a smaller amount of money and give him that debit card. There should not be any way for money from your other accounts to transfer over if the account is depleted. That should give you some time. Then I would have a conversation with an estate attorney about how best to navigate this as his dementia worsens. Then have a conversation with your financial advisors.
I tried to change the phone number for my mother's mutual fund after her strokes. They needed to speak to her to get her ok. They asked what her social security number was, phone number, address; she couldn't answer any of it. Her memory was better then than it is now, but there was no way she could answer any of it. So I sent in the power of attorney. Nope. They had decided it was a scam. That level of caution is appreciated sometimes, but not others. I think you will want legal advice before contacting the financial advisors so they don't 'batten down the hatches' to prevent any liability on their part.

Thank you so much! I’ll contact our estate attorney tomorrow (have to vacate our apartment today for the annual big cleaning).

 

[magmue]

I think Cliff could benefit from a “chill pill” of some sort.

Is he taking anything for mood currently? I'm a retired NP and DH is a retired psychiatrist.

Some of the SSRIs like Celexa and Zoloft are thought to be OK for folks with dementia and can help with agitation and anxiety, but they usually take weeks to have an effect.

Benzo's (anti-anxiety meds like Xanax and Valium) are sedating and can cause falls.

Antipsychotics (like Haldol or Seroquel) help with aggression and psychosis, but the FDA issued a black box warning for their use in the elderly because of possible severe side effects. -That means doctors are going "off label" if they prescribe them, which most are reluctant to do.

There are some newer antipsychotics that are FDA approved for agitation in seniors with Alzheimers-related dementia; e.g, Rexulti.

Might be worth talking with his PCP or asking for a consult referral. But if Cliff is already paranoid, it might be challenging to add a new pill to his routine.

 

[magmue]

I know a lady who is 101, she still lives alone in a very big house. She gave up driving at %99.

My dad drove until he was 101 - to church every morning for mass, to the grocery store twice a week, and to take his live-in Ukranian care giver to and from the train station for her days off. He stopped because his auto insurance company noticed his age and required certification from his PCP. My sister and I offered to help him navigate the form, but he declined. "I'm probably not as quick as I used to be, or as strong as I used to be". It was a difficult thing for him to give up. He lived to 104.

@clifffaith I wonder whether it might help if Cliff had a chance to prove you and his PCP are wrong by doing a senior driving evaluation with an occupational therapist? It looks like his PCP could refer him. At the very least, it could buy you some time. It would also spread the blame around.

 

[rapmarks]

My dad drove until he was 101 - to church every morning for mass, to the grocery store twice a week, and to take his live-in Ukranian care giver to and from the train station for her days off. He stopped because his auto insurance company noticed his age and required certification from his PCP. My sister and I offered to help him navigate the form, but he declined. "I'm probably not as quick as I used to be, or as strong as I used to be". It was a difficult thing for him to give up. He lived to 104.

@clifffaith I wonder whether it might help if Cliff had a chance to prove you and his PCP are wrong by doing a senior driving evaluation with an occupational therapist? It looks like his PCP could refer him. At the very least, it could buy you some time. It would also spread the blame around.

I tried that, my husband failed the test, and he claimed I paid the guy off to fail him. Just as an aside, the test giver questioned him for an hour before taking him out to drive and of course he couldn’t remember all the things the person asked. Ten years ago it was$850 plus a fee for getting a one day driving permit.

 

[Snazzylass]

Thank you so much! I’ll contact our estate attorney tomorrow (have to vacate our apartment today for the annual big cleaning).

Hoping this brings you some peace of mind - all banking employees are trained in Elder Abuse. Financial Advisors may have the same sort of training. I would think if you have been with your FA any time at all, a simple phone call and/or email would be appropriate.

On the other hand, when a financial employee hears from the "children" or other relatives who are typically younger, a red flag goes up. Over the years I've taken the craziest phone calls of this nature and in those cases, the POA means diddly squat which is what may have happened to the other person who responded about her mother. Your accounts are Joint. You won't have any say on any Individual accounts such as his IRA, but the rest? Yes! You do have a say!

There's a big difference between calling in as an unknown person to a financial institution (a lot of times it's a Call Center) and actually having a personal relationship with an employee. I trust yours is the latter?

 

[clifffaith]

My dad drove until he was 101 - to church every morning for mass, to the grocery store twice a week, and to take his live-in Ukranian care giver to and from the train station for her days off. He stopped because his auto insurance company noticed his age and required certification from his PCP. My sister and I offered to help him navigate the form, but he declined. "I'm probably not as quick as I used to be, or as strong as I used to be". It was a difficult thing for him to give up. He lived to 104.

@clifffaith I wonder whether it might help if Cliff had a chance to prove you and his PCP are wrong by doing a senior driving evaluation with an occupational therapist? It looks like his PCP could refer him. At the very least, it could buy you some time. It would also spread the blame around.

His driving skill isn’t really an issue. It is asking “where are we going?” four times while he is driving us to Trader Joe’s which is less than ten minutes up the street. PCP said no driving test for the cognitively impaired— no one at DMV would get in the car with him.