Charge back from Paypal for rental -- after renter checked in!

[JudyS]

OK, here is my tale of woe!

I rented out an expensive timeshare, for check-in today (November 21.) The seller (let's call him Lou Jones) signed the rental agreement. On November 4, I received payment from another person (let's call her Beth Smith) via Paypal. I wasn't too worried that payment came from someone else, because a lot of renters do this, and I've never had a problem before. I sent a "Thank you for your payment" email to the person who made payment, but didn't get a reply. (Also not unusual.)

A few days later, I sent Lou Jones his check-in confirmation. I didn't hear anything else about this rental until today, check-in day, when I got a notice from Paypal that the payment was fraudulent and that I needed to pay them back the full amount of the rental.

I called the resort, and it seems that Lou Jones has in fact checked in. However, he doesn't answer his room phone.

Paypal has requested that I provide more details about the transaction. I have tried and tried to respond, but I get an error each time. Does anyone have a phone number for Paypal that I can use?

Has anyone else ever run into a problem like this? One thing that bothers me is that I'm not sure how to protect myself in the future. I can insist that payment be made in the name of the person who checks in, although I've had many payments made in other names before, with no problem.

Do you think there's any chance Paypal will find in my favor?

Also, is there anyway I can get the "renter" evicted from the room? Should I even try?

 

[london]

Pay Pal Dispute

I doubt if you can have the rented evicted, since he has a confirmation into the resort.

You do have a dispute with Pay Pal, which you may get resolved in your favor at some point.

Renting out timeshare weeks, always has some risks involved.

 

[e.bram]

If PayPal doesn't get the money, you ain't getting your cash back.

 

[Kay H]

Judy,
I'm so sorry that you got scammed. Some people have no conscience.

The customer service # on paypal's web site is 1-888-221-1161. Hope you get your money back.


I'd keep calling the resort and have them ring his room. Even if he doesn't answer, maybe you can annoy the heck out of him.

Calling the police in the town where he is vacationing sounds good too. I never thought of that.

 

[northwoodsgal]

Well, if Paypal has reported it correctly and it is a case of fraud, would it be worth a phone call to the local police station? After all, you do know where the thief is currently residing.

 

[Kay H]

If PayPal doesn't get the money, you ain't getting your cash back.

You sure have a strange way of showing compassion.

 

[brigechols]

So sorry for your troubles. I would send an over night letter to Lou Jones at the resort.

 

[MuranoJo]

Judy,

So sorry to hear about this...I've never had this particular thing happen with a rental, but I've had a few challenges with Paypal along similar lines.

One can only imagine the scam going on here...and how infuriating for someone to be occupying that high-value unit at your cost. At a minimum, I agree with the advice to call the local police. If they'll follow up on this, and IF the occupant has him/herself been scammed, perhaps they can trace to the real culprit.

I just wonder if the local police would do this. Hopefully Customer Service at Paypal can give you some pointers.

 

[JudyS]

Thanks for all of the advice, and thanks, Kay H, for the Paypal number. I called them, but other than telling me that their dispute resolution center wasn't working and that I should submit my information later, they didn't have much advice for me. They did say that the credit card was reported as stolen--and that I probably wouldn't get my money back. They suggested I call the resort and try to have the renter evicted--although as London said, the resort may not want to do that.

About contacting the local police, the resort isn't in the US, which makes it more difficult. Actually, I might as well say where it is -- it's Harborside at Atlantis. (I don't own there--this was a Redweek exchange, but Redweek does allow exchanges to be rented out, so I wasn't breaking any exchange rules by renting.)

I'm pretty much resigned to losing the rental fee. What's really worrying me now is that everything at Harborside is *extremely* expensive, and I'm concerned that the renter will charge thousands of dollars to the room to a fraudulent credit card -- and then Harborside will come after me for the charges.

I called Harborside to tell then about the problem, and the woman at the front desk assured me that they would not come after me for the charges. Still, I'm worried. I will try to speak to their fraud prevention department (I assume they have one) tomorrow.

Making things tougher is that Harborside wanted to know what the credit card number was that was fraudulent. Of course, I don't know it, since this was a Paypal transaction. The woman at the front desk was very confused about why I didn't know the credit card number--she apparently doesn't understand how Paypal works (not surprising, since she's not in the US.)

I really feel that using Paypal has has left me stuck in the middle. I'm liable if a renter uses a fake credit card, but I'm not entitled to information that might help me track the problem down.

 

[JudyS]

I decided to call Harborside's security department, but no one answered. (Let's hope none of us ever have an emergency there!)

So, I called the security department at the main Atlantis hotel. The person I spoke to there asked me to send her the documentation from Paypal, which I did.

 

[ada903]

I am so sorry this happened to you, and I thank you for sharing with us this unfortunate experience! It really convinces me to never accept Paypal payments for rentals anymore. Please share with the forum the outcome. I am truly angry hearing your story.

I think you would have enough for a small claims Court civil suit, but for starters, if you have the renter's home address, find out where they work, and threaten them to contact their employer about this. It's a small world these days, and people cannot "hide" as easily anymore! For a small fee you can purchase info about people including previous addresses, family relationships and work places, and phone number histories.

 

[DeniseM]

I am also sorry you are going through this.

It is interesting that the payment was made from a different name - I've never had that happen. So the Paypal Acct. was in one name, and the reservation was in another? I guess that's a warning sign - thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Please let us know how it goes and good luck!

 

[am1]

The resort will not evict the renter. They play no part in your rental transaction other than to check the guest in and accomodate their needs. Resort staff/security should not even be giving you updates on their stay for privacy reasons.

If you lose with paypal then small claims is your next option. Since it was not a tangible good you are not protected by paypals seller protection.

Good luck as this is always a concern.

 

[Robert D]

Judy, I'd call and talk directly to the general manager at Harborside first thing tomorrow morning and tell that person what happened and see if they can't evict the dead beat. I'd also be sure that they swiped his credit card at check in and verified that is was not stolen - I think this is standard procedure here in the US. He probably gave them a legitimate credit card but you never know. Also, I think you should post his name on this forum so we all know to stay clear of him. I'd also call the FBI and see if they can do anything - this may be part of an identity theft ring and if so, the feds would get involved.

I've used Paypal a lot for rentals but payment has always come from the person who is checking in. If a third party pays for the rental, I think we need to get the contact address and phone number of both parties and verify that there's no fraud involved if the check in date is close to payment date.

Good luck on getting it resolved.

 

[ada903]

I agree. You are not likely to manage to get them evicted, and it won't get your money back.

I would fax a letter to the renter at the resort and make it clear that you expect payment or 1) you will file a small claims Court case; and 2) you will find and contact their employer to warn them about their character.

Hopefully you will at least scare the person enough to prevent them from charging to the room without providing proper payment.

You should have this guy's real name, and be able to find him - without a real name matching a real ID, they could have not checked into the resort.

Girlfriend, you need to go after this guy. If someone has stolen from me because they were in need, I would close my eyes and forgive. But to steel to go on an expensive vacation?? OMG. Sorry, we Romanians have fast and furious blood.

The resort will not evict the renter. They play no part in your rental transaction other than to check the guest in and accomodate their needs. Resort staff/security should not even be giving you updates on their stay for privacy reasons.

If you lose with paypal then small claims is your next option. Since it was not a tangible good you are not protected by paypals seller protection.

Good luck as this is always a concern.

 

[bdh]

Sorry to hear about your troubles - I'm thinking this is a new scam some people are using to get free accommodations.

Saw/heard a similar experience about a month ago while in Florida. A private individual deposited their week with the timeshare company for rental income - the TS company opened up the rental unit to the public - the unit was reserved by a guy named Jamal and "paid for" via credit card - the renter arrives after 11:00 PM after the TS front desk staff is gone for the day - so security (a young kid who doesn't speak much English) lets them into the unit (since he is not familiar with the front office systems, he doesn't see the note in the system that the says the credit card that was used to reserve the unit was declined and that a new card must be provided) - when the front office staff arrives in the morning they see a new card was not provided, they go to the room - Shaniqua comes to the door and says "I aint payin, Jamal paid - but he aint here right now".

The police showed up shortly and Shaniqua was evicted (but not arrested since Jamal was the one with the stolen CC ) - but after she'd gotten a $650 a night stay for free.

 

[chriskre]

This is the problem with paypal.
It's a great system until you have a problem. :annoyed:
Then they seem to always side with the buyer and the seller gets taken.
They are not going to take it out of their profits.
The seller needs to be hypervigilant in paypal dealings.
If it seems fishy then it probably is.
These scammers are always coming up with a new game.

It's frustrating.

If you are going to be doing more rentals you might want to consider getting a merchant account.
Some of them can be had for $10 a month.
Here's one I'm familiar with:
http://www.itransact.com/

That way you'd know who you were dealing with and have a little better protection.

Sorry you had to go thru this. It's very distrubing.

 

[JudyS]

Thanks for all the advice and kind words! I am going to bed after this post, but will post here if I learn anything more tomorrow. I did get an email from Harborside's security department assuring me that I would not be responsible for charges to the room

..
It is interesting that the payment was made from a different name - I've never had that happen. So the Paypal Acct. was in one name, and the reservation was in another? I guess that's a warning sign - thanks for bringing it to our attention....

Yes, they were in two completely different names. I actually have had payment in a different name several times before, with no problems, but it will definitely be a red flag to me in the future!

I'm not sure if I'll start saying in my ads that I want payment in the same name as the reservation, or if that will just come across in the ad as uptight. I might be better off just phoning if payment comes from another name.

 

[Conan]

Calling the police in the town where he is vacationing sounds good too. I never thought of that.

Not quite the same thing, but a few years ago I bought a week on Ebay, paid via Paypal, and the seller failed to deliver the sales papers after the time to contest the purchase had run out. I visited my local police station and told my story there. The officer was able to look up a working phone number for the seller that I didn't have, telephoned the police department at the seller's town (in another US state), and had them pass along the message to the seller that she could expect trouble if she kept my money without delivering the deed.

Two days later I had my papers.

 

[CarolF]

A couple of years ago, I got caught in the same 'stolen paypal account scam'. I won't use paypal to accept payment now, unless it is a physical item that can be posted with a 'tracking number'. I'm not even confident that a tracking number guarantees any assistance from Paypal, they rendered so little assistance first time round I have no trust in their system.

I do hope it all works out for you Judy.

Not quite the same thing, but a few years ago I bought a week on Ebay, paid via Paypal, and the seller failed to deliver the sales papers after the time to contest the purchase had run out. I visited my local police station and told my story there. The officer was able to look up a working phone number for the seller that I didn't have, telephoned the police department at the seller's town (in another US state), and had them pass along the message to the seller that she could expect trouble if she kept my money without delivering the deed.

Two days later I had my papers.

Wow, that is a great story and outcome.

 

[lorenmd]

so since you made the original reservation and provided the resort with the name of the person who would be checking in, why can't you tell them that you made a mistake and the name was not who was checking into your unit and the real renter would be showing up so that person needed to vacate. don't make it easy. too bad someone from TUG isn't at the resort now and could just track down the guy and let him know he was trespassing in your unit.

 

[Carolinian]

I avoid Paypal from either end if I can. There is a website on some of their problems www.paypalsucks.com

If I have to use Paypal to buy something and have a problem, I don't even bother with them but dispute it directly with American Express.

 

[am1]

so since you made the original reservation and provided the resort with the name of the person who would be checking in, why can't you tell them that you made a mistake and the name was not who was checking into your unit and the real renter would be showing up so that person needed to vacate. don't make it easy. too bad someone from TUG isn't at the resort now and could just track down the guy and let him know he was trespassing in your unit.

That would at least cost a cleaning fee and I doubt it would work anyways. Whats the chances that you made a mistake and the wrong guy actually checked in?

 

[Jennie]

"Boyblue" has been a TUG member for many years. He lives in Nassau, Bahamas and owns (or used to own) a shop there. He was very helpful to me (via PM messages) when I had a timeshare related problem on Paradise Island a few years ago.

I see that he last posted a message on TUG on November 3rd. http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133708
You can see his contact information on the sidebar of that post.

Why don't you send an Email or PM to "Blueboy" and seek his help or advice. He may be able to put you in touch with a law enforcement officer who could go to Harborside and determine who is staying in the unit, and advise him that the rental was fraudulently paid for with a stolen credit card. Let the occupant have to provide detailed info about who paid for their rental with the stolen card plus arrange for you to receive an immediate payment by wire transfer or their own credit card.

There's an outside chance that the occupant is the victim of a scam artist--that he paid a person whom he was led to believe had the right to rent the unit. But I doubt it.

In any case, if the Nassau police agree to look into the matter, the occupant, whether innocent or guilty, should become very concerned about having his passport confiscated and/or being detained in a foreign country, and will hopefully cooperate fully in resolving the problem to your satisfaction.

When "Blueboy" so graciously assisted me in the past (by PM and then phone) he referred me to his aunt, a prominent attorney on the island, for a free consultation, and she was extremely helpful.

Good luck!

 

[theo]

Supportive, but not overly optimistic on "PayPal"...

Do you think there's any chance Paypal will find in my favor?

My understanding has always been that PayPal provides no meaningful protection in "non-tangibles" transactions --- and a rental unfortunately is indeed regarded as a "non-tangible transaction". I would be delighted to be wrong, but that stated belief has never been refuted here (on TUG) or elsewhere.

Meanwhile, I would ask the resort for whatever identifcation info "Lou Jones" provided to them upon check-in. You are the actual owner of the week, so I wouldn't let the resort try to cite "privacy issues" in hesitating to cooperate. Didn't "Lou" have to present a credit card imprint to the desk upon check-in as security deposit measure? Didn't "Lou" also have to provide vehicle registration and description as part of the check-in process for a parking pass?

With (and not before) having this specific info in hand, then I would contact the local Police Department and ask for their prompt assistance in the matter. The P.D. has patrol cars on duty 24/7 and "Lou" is surely going back to that unit sooner or later, hopefully to have a surprise face to face conversation with a uniformed officer who already has his pertinent identifying info (and the allegation of theft of services) in hand. I wouldn't expect much other help from the resort itself, since you previously provided confirmation / authorization for this parasite to occupy your unit.

That's my $0.02 worth, to follow or ignore as you may see fit.
====================================================================

P.S. added --- I have belatedly just noticed that a.) the resort is in the Bahamas and b.) you are not the actual "owner" of the week at issue. My advice would have been "spot on" for an actual owner in the USA, but I do not claim to know whether or not the Nassau police would have the interest or motivation to try to help you, compounded by the fact that you don't actually "own" the week at issue in the first place.
I still think it's worth the cost of a phone call to find out, however.